Weekly Development Activities 3/31/2008

[Vormaerin]

Oh, and I got the impression that Eladrin was being a bit snide with the comment about 'everyone loves bats and rats'. That's the whole point of the "at least more than slimes and oozes", which are tied for least favorite thing in DDO in the lastest feedback thread (air elementals being the other one).

So I think they are intending to have nuisance creatures in the catacombs, but decided that bats and rats are better than slimes and oozes for that role.

[Angelus_dead]

The medieval quarterstaff was not, in fact, generally wielded like a modern jo staff or martial arts weapon. It was often used more like a two handed sword or polearm was.

Read a medieval author like George Silver in his Paradoxes of Defense book, section 26.
http://www.pbm.com/~lindahl/paradoxes.html

Yet again for the short staff: the short staff has the vantage against the battle axe, black bill, or halberd: the short staff has the advantage, by reason of the nimbleness and length: he will strike and thrust freely, and in better and swifter time than can the battle axe, black bill, or halberd, and by reason of his judgement, distance and time, fight safe. And this resolve upon, the short staff is the best weapon against all manner of weapons, the forest bill excepted.

Also the short staff has advantage against two swords and daggers, or two rapiers, poniards and gauntlets(19), the reasons and causes before are for the most part set down already

[Angelus_dead]

I disagree. Smite Evil maybe be iconic to you but its a secondary ability at best especially due to it's extremely low usage. DND 4 may be changing that but this ain't DND4.

A level 16 D&D paladin has smite evil 4 times per day. And by the D&D rules, he also has 4 combats per day.

A smarter way to implement the "one smite per combat" idea is to use the 4th edition system and simply give you one smite per encounter. In DDO the boundary between one combat and another is hard to define, which is why the idea of a longer cooldown for unlimited Smite uses is a good method.

[gpk]

A smarter way to implement the "one smite per combat" idea is to use the 4th edition system and simply give you one smite per encounter. In DDO the boundary between one combat and another is hard to define, which is why the idea of a longer cooldown for unlimited Smite uses is a good method.

Yep, and this has been suggested before in numerous threads. However the Smite Evil is and will continue to remain a secondary-tertiary ability with a longer cooldown even with unlimitid uses (thought it's a start). The rounds are much shorter in DDO, mobs more plentiful and stronger; certain spells abilities need to be adjusted in DDO as they have been adjusted for other classes.
Smite Evils, in order to be at all viable and to make up for the ever-lacking useful spells and feats needs to not only have drastically more use per rest (see unlimited) but the cooldown examined as well.
Otherwise boost them all you want, they are still irrelevant in the big picture, and their only use is to placate the less saavy players and make them giggle and feel good about seeing the occasional big number.

[jarew2you77]

who the heck thought of this? Why not add machine guns and cannons while your at it....heck why not give them rocket boosters and some seats while your at it so they can be a jet and fly everyone around. Your getting to be that ******** DM nobody wanted to play with. I saw that on the front page and i thought...YOU HAVE GOT TO BE KIDDING ME!!! If this game gets any more ******** i'm leaving....it was even talking about BLING!! I would rather leave than see walking motercycles in the D&D world.... You havent even implemented half the classes and you add BLING AND FRICKEN WHEELS FOR WARFORGED??!!!!

PS- It is april 1st so i'm hoping this is a big april fools joke....

[Vormaerin]

Read a medieval author like George Silver in his Paradoxes of Defense book, section 26.
http://www.pbm.com/~lindahl/paradoxes.html

I don't see anything in that article that contradicts what I said. The staff has various advantages over the other weapons in that you can do more things with it, but it doesn't change the fact that "quarterstaff fencers" such as the London Masters did not generally wield the staff in the same way that people think of it today. It is very much more like a polearm or, at times, a greatsword, than anything else. Polearm fighters also used their weapons' shafts to parry, but the weapon was less balanced and generally longer (like the long staff mentioned by Silver). Most players think of 'half staff' fighting when they imagine the use of a quarterstaff.

The D&D quarterstaff is longer than a greatsword or short spear. Medieval ones were 6-8 feet long. Anyway, kind of a side track that's not really germaine to the point.

D&D's quarterstaff is properly set up to be used either as a two handed or a double weapon. DDO's is not. I don't think that substituting weapon finesse ability for the two weapon fighting option would be a problem. Two weapon fighting would be better, but it would also seem like a pretty big change in the game's functioning.

[Serpent]

[*]UPDATED Paladin Divine Sacrifice I

• Prereq: Paladin level 5, Paladin Extra Smiting I, 15 Action Points spent
• Cost: 1 Action Point
• Benefit: Giving up some of your life force to win the battle, you empower your next blow against your foe. This attack deals an additional 5d6 Good damage to evil opponents and increases the critical multiplier of your weapon by 1, but costs you 10 hp and 1 sp, whether or not the attack is successful.". (6 second cooldown.)

[*]Prereq: Level 6 Paladin, Paladin Divine Sacrifice I, 19 Action Points Spent[*]Benefit: Using this attack, you call on the paladin's ability to strike down evil creatures, gaining twice your Charisma bonus to your attack roll, a damage bonus based on your paladin level, and +1 to your weapon's critical damage multiplier. (6 second cool-down, uses smites per day, replaces Smite Evil.)[/LIST][*]NEW Paladin Exalted Smite II:

• Cost: 2 Action Points
• Prereq: Level 10 Paladin, Paladin Exalted Smite I, Paladin Extra Smite III, 34 Action Points Spent
• Benefit: Using this attack, you call on the paladin's ability to strike down evil creatures, gaining twice your Charisma bonus to your attack roll, a damage bonus based on your paladin level, and +1 to your weapon's critical threat range and damage multiplier.

[*]NEW Paladin Exalted Smite III:

• Cost: 3 Action Points
• Prereq: Level 14 Paladin, Paladin Exalted Smite II, Paladin Extra Smite IV, 49 Action Points Spent
• Benefit: Using this attack, you call on the paladin's ability to strike down evil creatures, gaining twice your Charisma bonus to your attack roll, a damage bonus based on your paladin level, and +1 to your weapon's critical threat range and +2 to your weapon's critical damage multiplier.

[*]NEW Paladin Exalted Smite IV:

• Cost: 4 Action Points
• Prereq: Level 18 Paladin, Paladin Exalted Smite III, Paladin Extra Smite IV, 64 Action Points Spent
• Benefit: Using this attack, you call on the paladin's ability to strike down evil creatures, gaining twice your Charisma bonus to your attack roll, a damage bonus based on your paladin level, and +2 to your weapon's critical threat range and damage multiplier. (Yes, we realize you can't get this yet, but it will wait patiently for you to hit level 18.)

[*]NEW Paladin Redemption I

• Cost: 4 Action Points
• Prereq: Level 9 Paladin, Paladin Extra Lay on Hands I, 28 Action Points Spent, Any one of: Paladin Devotion II, Paladin Heal II
• Benefit: You can activate this ability and expend one use of Lay on Hands to raise the dead, returning your target to life at 10% health.

[*]NEW Paladin Redemption II

• Cost: 2 Action Points
• Prereq: Level 14 Paladin, Paladin Extra Lay on Hands II, Paladin Redemption I, 50 Action Points Spent, Any one of: Paladin Devotion III, Paladin Heal III
• Benefit: You can activate this ability and expend one use of Lay on Hands to resurrect the dead, returning your target to life at 50% health.

[*]NEW Paladin Redemption III (Not yet available)

• Cost: 2 Action Points
• Prereq: Level 19 Paladin, Paladin Extra Lay on Hands III, Paladin Redemption II, 70 Action Points Spent, Any one of: Paladin Devotion IV, Paladin Heal IV
• Benefit: You can activate this ability and expend one use of Lay on Hands to true resurrect the dead, returning your target to life at 100% health.

These are ****. Anyone who thinks that making paladins more clicky dependent is a good thing is nuts.

I'm not going to say why they are bad, that has been done in detail already. Simply put this is not what a paladin needs. Giving them 12 times per rest to be decisive to the party is a mistake

Divine Might, Righteous Aura and others are what they need, these are jsut more AP to limit your paladin to the back line. ALmost like Turbine wants them to be secondary healers.

You think I'm wrong then tell me why, please someone give a good argument as to why these are what a paladin needs.

[Hvymetal]

who the heck thought of this? Why not add machine guns and cannons while your at it....heck why not give them rocket boosters and some seats while your at it so they can be a jet and fly everyone around. Your getting to be that ******** DM nobody wanted to play with. I saw that on the front page and i thought...YOU HAVE GOT TO BE KIDDING ME!!! If this game gets any more ******** i'm leaving....it was even talking about BLING!! I would rather leave than see walking motercycles in the D&D world.... You havent even implemented half the classes and you add BLING AND FRICKEN WHEELS FOR WARFORGED??!!!!

PS- It is april 1st so i'm hoping this is a big april fools joke....

Didn't read to far into it or check the link at the bottom of the op did we?

[Aesop]

These are ****. Anyone who thinks that making paladins more clicky dependent is a good thing is nuts.

I'm not going to say why they are bad, that has been done in detail already. Simply put this is not what a paladin needs. Giving them 12 times per rest to be decisive to the party is a mistake

Divine Might, Righteous Aura and others are what they need, these are jsut more AP to limit your paladin to the back line. ALmost like Turbine wants them to be secondary healers.

You think I'm wrong then tell me why, please someone give a good argument as to why these are what a paladin needs.

Smite Evil: remove the use per rest on smite evil and make it a cooldown like Stunning Blow. Paladins will then be able to use this ability more often and with less frustration of missing with a limited resource. Damage should be based on the Paladins level and an Enhancment to replace the increase uses per day should be added in to increase the base damage of the smite. Say a 4 tier that give +5/10/15/20. If the damage still seems too low (and it may with the high hp of the critters we fight) then increase the damage or decrease the timer. A 15-20 sec cooldown should allow Paladins to maintain a good ratio. If with the Exalted Smite the DPS seems too high then instead remove one of the benefits or just have Exalted Smite be the damage upgrade and ignore the part about +5/10/15/20.

A given encounter doesn't typically last too much longer than a minute or so at high levels so while this will improve the Paladins contributions over time they won't become a hugely dominating force that overshadows everything else.

Aesop

[gpk]

A given encounter doesn't typically last too much longer than a minute or so at high levels so while this will improve the Paladins contributions over time they won't become a hugely dominating force that overshadows everything else.
Aesop

Here is the litmus test: is it even as good as Ram's Might alone.

Unlimited uses a day is a good 1st step if you are serious about ungimping the proposed smites. Then you can adjust the cooldown timer.

Average the damage over time with average pally stats, average the crits with a tier2 positive crafted khopesh and compare it's contribution to Ram's Might on a hasted Tempest ranger, edit: balance it as if it were on a hasted pally (no tempest, no twf).
If the answer is not even close to Ram's Might reduce the cooldown timer or better yet increase the number of swings smite lasts for. Adjust until you get it right.
In fact consideration should also be given to the fact that since smites are not a persistent boost, they are subject to different issues entirely: not being properly queued into attack chain, moving mobs, dead mobs etc. A pay-on-attack-roll fix for all speciall attacks would most of that.

edit: Furthermore look at the big picture and compare the sum of mod7 pally love to mod 6 range love.

[Vhlad]

Here is the litmus test: is it even as good as Ram's Might alone.

Unlimited uses a day is a good 1st step if you are serious about ungimping the proposed smites. Then you can adjust the cooldown timer.

Average the damage over time with average pally stats and compare it's contribution to Ram's Might on a hasted Tempest ranger, then just for for fun for fun compare it as if it were on a hasted pally (no tempest, no twf).
If the answer is not even close to Ram's Might reduce the cooldown timer or better yet increase the number of swings smite lasts for.

Wait,

so you want a pally ability that cannot be debuffed that requires no feats and no mana and allows him to use a shield and pick cha as a prime stat to result in just as much DPS as a ranger combination that requires a bunch of feats and no shield, has str has a prime stat, costs mana, and can be debuffed?

Naw, I must have read that wrong.

[gpk]

Wait,

so you want a pally ability that cannot be debuffed that requires no feats and no mana and allows him to use a shield and pick cha as a prime stat to result in just as much DPS as a ranger combination that requires a bunch of feats and no shield, has str has a prime stat, costs mana, and can be debuffed?

Naw, I must have read that wrong.

Yes you did read wrong but I shoulda been more clear too, my bad.

1st of all debuff aren't the problems they were in Mod 3, 2nd of all 10 SP to re-cast? Big whoop to a ranger, there is no DF to recast every minute.
Im saying it should at least match the contribution of ram's might to 1 hand on a hasted pally, I'll edit for clarity.
As for prime stats, compare the stat reliance of a ranger to a paladin, ranger comes out ahead even if only by one stat.

Overall though there is zero reasons why the sum of all this "pally love" should be less valuable than what was given to the less needy ranger, you can factor in the feats required for Tempest, and you should aslo factor in the bigger hole paladins are in. In fact since paladins were already behind rangers before mod 6 one could say they need relatively more "quality love" than rangers got.

Thus far add up all the proposed "love" and it all falls way short of lil old Ram's Might and really is of near zero value.

If you read my previous posts elsewhere this is not the route I would have taken for "pally love" nor is it the route I thought the devs would have taken.
I'm trying to make lemonade out of some very sour lemons.

Actually you know you have a point, maybe a more detailed comparison of where the pally stands in relation to a mod6 tempest ranger is needed to really put things into perspective, it's early and I'm tired and am making many spelling mistakes, I may get to it later.

[Vhlad]

It's really just the nature of the mods. Mod 5 was designed in a way where casters blew everyone away. Mod 6 shroud gives that role to DPS barbs/rangers (AC and saves don't matter). If they fill a mod with choas orbs, beholders, anti magic zones, casters that spam greater command, etc, then paladins would be quite the asset.

I think leaving the current smite alone, but giving the paladin a % chance per hit to deliver an exalted smite would be more fun than a clicky they need to spam. A lot of rangers don't like mashing the deepwood sniper button for example, so it would be nice if they didn't start adding more button mashy enhancements (I don't use auto attack so I mash keys enough). Haste boost for example causes a 1 second attack delay after use and sometimes you have to stop attacking for it to even register and go off. I'm not sure if exalted smite is integrated nicely like trip or stunning blow and causes no delay (hopefully it's like that) or if it's lame like the boost clickies, but nonetheless a % chance would be less aggravating than a clicky spam. We're spamming enough with trip, stunning blow, sunder, cleave/great cleave, etc. There's not enough mouse side buttons for more!

[gpk]

It's really just the nature of the mods. Mod 5 was designed in a way where casters blew everyone away. Mod 6 shroud gives that role to DPS barbs/rangers (AC and saves don't matter).

While I don't necessarily disagree I feel that's an oversimplification of things and I'm not sure where you're going with this; maybe I'm just sleepy.

If they fill a mod with choas orbs, beholders, anti magic zones, casters that spam greater command, etc, then paladins would be quite the asset.

A barbarian would still be much better, and the pally would suffer more from losing all his buffs.

[MysticTheurge]

A barbarian would still be much better, and the pally would suffer more from losing all his buffs.

Just another good reason to fix beholders.

[Shaamis]

All I know is, the day monks come out I will be in the race for the first capped monk in Khyber! :P


Drunken (Dwarf) Style Kung Fu FTW.

[Deragoth]

Um, Eladrin, I think You've been Misinformed..... No one likes bats... Certainly not more than Slimes and oozes. The only reason they are tolerable in the vale is because we have spells like Firewall and Blade barrier to take careof them. Meleeing them sucks.

Arent Quarterstaffs Finnessable as a DOuble weapon in PnP?

I like bats... When they die

Probably the coolest death animation in the game. Kudos to the art department.

[EspyLacopa]

D&D's quarterstaff is properly set up to be used either as a two handed or a double weapon. DDO's is not. I don't think that substituting weapon finesse ability for the two weapon fighting option would be a problem. Two weapon fighting would be better, but it would also seem like a pretty big change in the game's functioning.

Main problem really is coding to be able to dynamically change how a weapon is wielded. Such as using a Longsword with two-hands for the strength bonus. Or having a Bastard Sword and Dwarven Axe be a Martial Two-Handed weapon and an Exotic One-handed Weapon.

I don't know any D&D based computer game that allows a player to dynamically choose such a thing. Atari's Temple of Elemental Evil came the closest, allowing you to use a one-handed weapon in two-hands when a buckler or no shield was equipped. But even then, one could not dynamically change how the weapon was wielded.

[Mad_Bombardier]

A level 16 D&D paladin has smite evil 4 times per day. And by the D&D rules, he also has 4 combats per day.

A smarter way to implement the "one smite per combat" idea is to use the 4th edition system and simply give you one smite per encounter. In DDO the boundary between one combat and another is hard to define, which is why the idea of a longer cooldown for unlimited Smite uses is a good method.

Unlimited use with 60 second cooldown would be appropriate.

[Scholar]

These are ****. Anyone who thinks that making paladins more clicky dependent is a good thing is nuts.

I'm not going to say why they are bad, that has been done in detail already. Simply put this is not what a paladin needs. Giving them 12 times per rest to be decisive to the party is a mistake

Divine Might, Righteous Aura and others are what they need, these are jsut more AP to limit your paladin to the back line. ALmost like Turbine wants them to be secondary healers.

You think I'm wrong then tell me why, please someone give a good argument as to why these are what a paladin needs.

You are not wrong. These are mostly window dressing. They don't really help much. Some "look" cool. But, that is about it. The only upcoming change that helps is the reduction in the cost of auras. However, in case anyone has forgotten, doesn't put us back where we were before the nerf last winter. You need to be 15th level and spend a lot of points to have the same paladin aura as you had at 9th level before. Some people see this as a bunch of great stuff and don't even realize that it isn't as much a buff as a nerf reduction.

Anyways, if they really want to give me something I'll invest in, come up with something usefull for my 13 turns. I'd really like to have a reason to keep them on my hotbar.