Devs; Where is the love for THF?

[Accelerando]

And back onto a point you said earlier, there is no way you could make any kind of slashing offence with a lance. It has no edge to it, and its range of motion is probably only 6-7inches either way on a horizontal plane. Go out in your back yard, hold a 12 foot pole under one are with 10 feet of it out in front of you and try to swing it. The way its held doesnt allow you to transfer force in a side-to-side motion, only with a jabbing lunge.

First of all you are dead wrong, but I do not fault you for not having any physical experience with live weapons. Here is a small matter
for you to think about.

fulcrum - ful.crum
1 a: prop; specifically : the support about which a lever turns b: one that supplies capability for action

And here are a few images of what a lance head looks like.

http://www.classicalfencing.com/img/...lanceheads.jpg
http://www.holdthisspear.co.uk/images/spear.jpg
(original context)
http://dakotamanufacturing.blogspot.com/
http://www.ordotempli.org/lance_heads.jpg
(original context)
http://www.ordotempli.org/knights_te..._research1.htm

And THF needs no love, giving piercing or x4 crit to it would be overbalance it compared to S&B AND TWF.

Dungeons and Dragons is not meant to be balanced. Weren't you arguing just a bit ago that piercing was useless in THF because
of the low crit range and multipliers on most two handed PnP piercing weapons, or was that the other guy? Now it is game breaking and
unbalanced?

I believe you are now just arguing because you enjoy it, and I take my leave of you. Good day sir.

[nbhs275]

First of all you are dead wrong, but I do not fault you for not having any physical experience with live weapons. Here is a small matter
for you to think about.

fulcrum - ful.crum
1 a: prop; specifically : the support about which a lever turns b: one that supplies capability for action

I have actual weapon experience. In this situation your the fulcrum, which means that the lance is balance vertically, so that it stays level. If you try to swing it left-right, your not going to have much control, and not going to have much actual damaging force.
And here are a few images of what a lance head looks like.

http://www.classicalfencing.com/img/...lanceheads.jpg
http://www.holdthisspear.co.uk/images/spear.jpg
(original context)
http://dakotamanufacturing.blogspot.com/
http://www.ordotempli.org/lance_heads.jpg
(original context)
http://www.ordotempli.org/knights_te..._research1.htm


Yea, they have an edge to them, though its not there for a slicing motion, its basically an elongated arrowpoint. Just because some rapiers have an edge doesnt mean they are meant to slash. Those lance heads are just like spears in the regard they are disigned to jab.

Dungeons and Dragons is not meant to be balanced. Weren't you arguing just a bit ago that piercing was useless in THF because
of the low crit range and multipliers on most two handed PnP piercing weapons, or was that the other guy? Now it is game breaking and
unbalanced?
I wasnt saying piercing was useless on THF, i was saying that PUNCTURING was inferior on THF, because of the lack of crit RANGE. HOWEVER, overall a x4 crit range on a Two handed weapon, would increase the gap between barbarians, and other melee classes, which is a problem Turbine is currently trying to correct, not add to.

I believe you are now just arguing because you enjoy it, and I take my leave of you. Good day sir.

Im not argueing for the sake of it. Im countering your arguements with both the math, reasonable opinions, and facts. You have continued to make matter-of-fact statements, as if anything your fingers strike down on a keyboard is divine fact. But from what you have written in this thread, it would seem your both a scholar in 13th century weaponry, and its use; and a historically accurate reanactor of medevil swordplay. So please, oh wisened one, tell us how you know OH so much about all these weapons and how all of us are but incompetent slackjawed yokels compared to your intellect. And you have been playing DD for a week more then me, so you must have many hidden, and potent secrets that us common folk have yet to unlock.

/sarcasm off

Its called a forum for a reason man. If your going to try and debate a point, do it in a non insulting way and with an actual arguement other then "i know and you dont". Otherwise go find another venue to **** your time away on.

[Accelerando]

Im not argueing for the sake of it. Im countering your arguements with both the math, reasonable opinions, and facts. You have continued to make matter-of-fact statements, as if anything your fingers strike down on a keyboard is divine fact. But from what you have written in this thread, it would seem your both a scholar in 13th century weaponry, and its use; and a historically accurate reanactor of medevil swordplay. So please, oh wisened one, tell us how you know OH so much about all these weapons and how all of us are but incompetent slackjawed yokels compared to your intellect. And you have been playing DD for a week more then me, so you must have many hidden, and potent secrets that us common folk have yet to unlock.

/sarcasm off

Its called a forum for a reason man. If your going to try and debate a point, do it in a non insulting way and with an actual arguement other then "i know and you dont". Otherwise go find another venue to **** your time away on.

Ok this will be the last one because you dug yourself such a deep hole I could not resist.

I have actual weapon experience. In this situation your the fulcrum, which means that the lance is balance vertically, so that it stays level. If you try to swing it left-right, your not going to have much control, and not going to have much actual damaging force.

The front hand is the fulcrum, and the rear hand operates the lever. Not only can you see chinese using a weapon in this manner with very
very similar functional and structural anatomy (long spear) you can also see this action being used by long stick defensive players in College Lacrosse. Ask an offensive lacrosse player if there is no power in this motion, and that is with a stick that is not counterweighted and very light.

In addition I have very precise control over this motion, and can slash and jab at my leisure with great accuracy. There is a specific reason
these weapons are bladed. There is a specific reason there are pikes.... and lances.

I wasnt saying piercing was useless on THF,

Actually you did say that.

And anyways, accelerando, from a mathmatical standpoint, you wouldnt want piercing on a 2hander anyways, as none have a wide crit range, which is what makes the mod useful. <except of course the falcion, which is slashing...makes a good weakening/enfeebling weapon tho>

To continue...

I wasnt saying piercing was useless on THF, i was saying that PUNCTURING was inferior on THF, because of the lack of crit RANGE. HOWEVER, overall a x4 crit range on a Two handed weapon, would increase the gap between barbarians, and other melee classes, which is a problem Turbine is currently trying to correct, not add to.

Currently there is no PUNCTURING on a two handed weapon. As I originally stated some people would rather not switch to X and board, or THF
if they want to do stat damage, especially if they are specced for THF.

[ghale]

A wounder is better then a puncturing, i never meantioned a w/p. And as anyone with the math skills of a third grader can tell you any wounding weapon is going to do more con damage then a puncturing pick. Only a ****ing moron would say that wounding alone is better then WoP. And guess what? im not a ****ing moron

Oh, and yea, wiki is not a reliable source no matter what. Its a user based source, meaning the content isnt going to be right alot of the time. Example, awhile back some loser was posing as a history professor(or something similiar) and was updating and moderating the wiki, but in reality he had zero knowledge of anything he was writing. ANY, ill repeat, ANY internet site can be completly inaccurate, so any data pulled from the web is always to be suspect of false data.


And back onto a point you said earlier, there is no way you could make any kind of slashing offence with a lance. It has no edge to it, and its range of motion is probably only 6-7inches either way on a horizontal plane. Go out in your back yard, hold a 12 foot pole under one are with 10 feet of it out in front of you and try to swing it. The way its held doesnt allow you to transfer force in a side-to-side motion, only with a jabbing lunge.


And finally, back to my original point, there shouldnt be lances in DDO. They are intending as a mounted weapon in PnP, nothing more, nothing less. And until we get mounts in DDO, we have no need for it.

And THF needs no love, giving piercing or x4 crit to it would be overbalance it compared to S&B AND TWF.

Ever read one of the first series of books that made DnD really popular? One of the dragonlances used was a footman's lance which was perfectly usable by someone not in mounted combat.

http://www.dlnexus.com/lexicon/15448.aspx

You say you're not a ****ing moron but anyone arguing reality for a fantasy computer game has to be a little bit of a ****ing moron to make such comparisons.

[BlueLightBandit]

2 things. Wiki is not based on total facts, its user updated. Any of that information is questionable. Expecially when i could go on and change it so that the lances where 150 meters long and made out of midgets and duct tape.

FYI: Midgets do bludgeoning damage.

And for every lame brained person that thinks they can "update" the wiki with incorrect statements, there is a team of people dedicated to fact checking the information that is already on there.

[nbhs275]

FYI: Midgets do bludgeoning damage.

And for every lame brained person that thinks they can "update" the wiki with incorrect statements, there is a team of people dedicated to fact checking the information that is already on there.

And who exactly moderates those dedicated people and their information? I could easily change any post to still seem factual and it go un noticed.

If i went to say, a wiki page on edgar allen poe, and added that his favorite drink was irish whiskey, not many people would question what seemed like a reasonable statement. Wiki no matter how its patrolled, will always be 90% facts, 10% fiction.

Also, accelerando, i have played lacrosse, D-pole infact. The difference between a mounted lance and a D-pole is that the lacrosse pole is pretty balanced throughout, where the mounted lance has a counterweight on the rear end.
A lacrosse stick actually works alot like an axe in its swinging motion. A lance is made to jab or thrust through armor, not slash.

So, again, i want you to go outside with a ten foot pole, hold it with 1 hand, keep it level, and try to use it in a slashing motion. There isnt enough control with one hand to do this, and your most likely going to just wobble the tip around.

And even if your not going to listen to any of that, there is still the fact that without reach being in the game, there is no reason to have longspears, lances, pikes, glaives, or any reach weapons. The only other 2 handed weapons you may actually get in is regular spears, which aren't very attractive DPS 2handers as they are only 20/x2.

[GlassCannon]

So, again, i want you to go outside with a ten foot pole, hold it with 1 hand, keep it level, and try to use it in a slashing motion. There isnt enough control with one hand to do this, and your most likely going to just wobble the tip around.

That would be true if you had a STR of 8.

I, however, do lift heavy things from time to time and a 10 foot pole 2 inches round is indeed heavy. It weighs 60lbs by itself. Then again, if gripped properly, you can swing it with no problems just like a slashing weapon. I am actually amazed at how slowly some tanks swing, as high as their STR ratings are., and the fact that INT is not added to the combat modifier in a cumulative multiplier. Using body weight and various limbs as braces and levers, you could easily turn a wooden pole into a devastating weapon. Of course, it is best used in 2 hands, and with a small enough shield(Buckler or Light Shield), there is not enough obstruction to hinder your 2-handed wielding. This, of course, is far too logical for the D&D format.

Anyone with a STR rating of 40+ should be capable of picking a Giant up by the leg and swinging it around with one hand proficiently, using it as a modified club. A Greataxe, as you understand, is MUCH lighter.

[Accelerando]

Also, accelerando, i have played lacrosse, D-pole infact. The difference between a mounted lance and a D-pole is that the lacrosse pole is pretty balanced throughout, where the mounted lance has a counterweight on the rear end.
A lacrosse stick actually works alot like an axe in its swinging motion. A lance is made to jab or thrust through armor, not slash.

You have not played lacrosse or you would know that defensive players who swing their sticks like an axe end up sitting on penalty with
slashing the whole game.

A lacrosse stick actually works alot like a spear, poking AND slashing.

You are still thinking of a jousting lance. This is a sport weapon. Your insistence on repeating your misconception of what a lance is is
not unlike comparing a Hung Gar Stylist's fu jow to a MMA fighter's uppercut. It is just silly.

So, again, i want you to go outside with a ten foot pole, hold it with 1 hand, keep it level, and try to use it in a slashing motion. There isnt enough control with one hand to do this, and your most likely going to just wobble the tip around.

Why in the name of god would I want to do this when we are discussing two handed weapons? Get it straight. The weapon we are talking
about is the not the weapon you see at the Ren. Fair. I am talkin about a real martial weapon, one that has many uses and forms of use.
Not every single lance in the history of the weapon was used by a mounted fighter. And not every single person to ever use a lance was
unimaginative enough to only use it to poke at things. There is also the whole of human history to consider, and how weapons with the
exact same structure were used by different cultures. You are being so euro-centric in this discussion I am actually perturbed that you are
allowed to vote.

*edit Just for the record. The task you ask is simple as I know many techniques using a Guan Dao that require you to do just this with the weapon. As the Guan Dao is tipped by a massive blade you would be surprised at how massively simple one handed manipulation of a bare pole is. LMAO

And even if your not going to listen to any of that, there is still the fact that without reach being in the game, there is no reason to have longspears, lances, pikes, glaives, or any reach weapons. The only other 2 handed weapons you may actually get in is regular spears, which aren't very attractive DPS 2handers as they are only 20/x2.

The whole point of two handed weapons are that they are reach weapons. A greatsword is a reach weapon. A maul is a reach weapon. A
lance is a reach weapon.

In addition the point of this whole thread... I will state for the 5th time.... is that there is no puncturing available for THF, as well as whatever
additional piercing only mods may or may not be added in the future.