Potions as clickies - great change or not?

[QuantumFX]

By adherence to the D&D rules, as well as the principles of game balance, characters shouldn't be able to drink potions when either Feared or Despaired, but teammates should be able to feed them potions in both those cases.

By the D&D rules, the only potions usable while feared are potions that produce a travel effect. (As a stretch, that could include Haste)

Just pointing out the one exception to the rule in DDO and why it can be useful to implement it as a clickie. (The rule in DDO being you can drink pots while feared. And despair is a fear effect.) No rant fuel there.

[Strykersz]

It says this in the release notes?

~Kire

We can extrapolate fairly well based upon what the actual change made is likely to be. Does a remove fear clickie work while feared? Unless they create a special circumstance exception a la rage(which is, as has been said elsewhere in this thread, an incomplete special circumstance) then we can deduce that it is likely the potion will not work while feared. Personally, I feel it would be better to overreact now and make certain that this will be going in correctly than to have to wait 6 months - 1 year to get it fixed later.

[Kire]

We can extrapolate fairly well based upon what the actual change made is likely to be. Does a remove fear clickie work while feared? Unless they create a special circumstance exception a la rage(which is, as has been said elsewhere in this thread, an incomplete special circumstance) then we can deduce that it is likely the potion will not work while feared. Personally, I feel it would be better to overreact now and make certain that this will be going in correctly than to have to wait 6 months - 1 year to get it fixed later.

heh well over-reacting is fun and all but normally doesnt end all that well.

There'll be teh flamers, saying how the devs shoulda caught this and how much they suck.

The Fanboi's who completely defend The devs, saying that they knew about thsi all along.

The trollers wholl call both teh fanboi's and the flamers idiots, because its just a game.

Fun Fun.

~Kire

[Shade]

The fact is they did NOT think of any of this. Not once, but twice now - first when they did the change to the 2 potions, and again when they tried to fix 1 of the 2 potions for barbarians - so to think they have without mentioning it isn't over reacting - its obvious. They made 1 special circumstance that ignored the overall problem, infact they did it only for 1 of the 2 potions they broke for barbarians - remove paralysys still aren't even usable while raged - barbarian or madstone.

And all of these examples can be tested right now - just go buy a lesser restore potion. There is no reason to think any of the other ones changed will work any different.

Anyways the issue is very clear and plain. To those who don't see it or care about it - thats fine, but irrelevant to the topic.

[Talcyndl]

There is no reason to think any of the other ones changed will work any different.

Considering they "fixed" (in their words) the Lesser Restore pots to work while raged (granted Madstone wasn't included in the fix), isn't that a "reason to think" the new funnel pots will be useable while raged and (hopefully - DEVS?) feared.

[Emili]

For Restoration: Erm.. You can use the pots on the fighters and barbs instead of mana...

Curse Removal: If they choose that they need madstone rage then DO NOT feel bad when they die because they cannot use a pot. Some players need to realise when certain buffs are appropriate and when you need to be more defensive. If they do not recognize these situations then they become ghosts. They'll learn.

~Kire

EDIT: also with being able to cast pots on party mates its making the spell available to other classes making it easier for the cleric because he/she is not the only with access to curing the afflicted person. SO the cleric can yell " hey <insert random class here> will you throw a <insert random infliction pot here> on the barbarian? he has madstone going.

Except for the fact that madstone is not only offensive but also defensive... it's increased ac and HP aside from strength. Predicting a caster off in the corner is going to cast a debuff is a **** shoot I'd say... thus you're saying never use madstone except when there are only melee or ranging mob around. I can tell you many a time where I was madstoned.. not in trouble myself at all but others in the party died because I was madstoned and could not deliver a lesser or anything but res them after my madstone wore off.

The concept of funnel is a nice gesture on the devs part but the short-cut taken to do it is not exactly optimum approach to the feature.

[Mad_Bombardier]

Good point Shade, I totally forgot about underwater potions...

[Strakeln]

Here's a few great reasons why there chaining more potions into clickies to make the game more fun:
Remove Fear:
Ok you just got feared by that kobold shaman, good thing you have that potion. Drink it - you cannot do that you are feared (cannot use clickies while feared)
Remove Curse/Poison/Disease:
Ok your doing shroud and your new to phase 4 so you are not quite equiped with all the imunity items yet.. you got cursed by a bearded devil and poisoned and disease from the pit fiend - now luckily you saved and carry potions... Ok drink remove curse potoion - you cannot do that you have madstone rage... Ok wait 30 seconds, its gone, drink - uh oh 10 seconds on poison timer and 5 on disease - drink remove disease potion - you cannot do that, clicky timer is not up - you take strength damage, ok 6 secnds later - drink it, good.. Oh no, poison is at 5 seconds - cannot drink neutralize poison - you die.
Woodblossom Mead, and Crimson Nightshade Infusion:
These are those great potions you get in tangleroot gorge.. Ok so your doing the slayers and collected a few of these things.. Running around, doing the slayers and you then need to use one, ok click.. animation going.. Interupted by getting tripped by a wolf.. No problem, try again.. oh interupted by getting tripped by a goblin , ok no problem, jump in water to try - cannot use clickes in water.. Ok try in mid air - interupted by animation fault.. Great.
Blindness Removal:
Ok so you got blinded in some dungeon, your running around like mad trying not to get hit searching for that remove blindness potion in your backpack.. Sweet you found it - click - doesn't work.. What happen? ok you grabbed a ledge or ladder since your blind so it wont work now, please wait 6 seconds.

Also please make water breathing potions like this, would be more fun to not be able to use those underwater.

....
Constructive feedback: The idea of potions with funnels has merits and surely some uses to certain players.. But giving all the problems it will cause I think it needs some serious thought and tech to make it work correctly and avoid all these issues.

Very good points.

I really wish they'd take things like this into consideration before making changes. It really sucks waiting 6 months+ for them to finally fix the issues they introduced to something that was working perfectly fine.

[tihocan]

The first obvious thing is we shouldn't have to use a funnel to drink a potion by ourselves, so the tech just shouldn't apply when we're using the potion on ourselves.
The second obvious thing is I have no idea how hard it would be to properly implement it. But I'll be happy to wait till mod.10 for a proper implementation if existing potions are not changed until then.

[herculesatan]

One thing they still need to fix is the potion/madstone rage bug.

Madstone Rage prevents you from casting spells.

It shouldn't prevent you from drinking a pot, which it does.

[Shade]

Considering they "fixed" (in their words) the Lesser Restore pots to work while raged (granted Madstone wasn't included in the fix), isn't that a "reason to think" the new funnel pots will be useable while raged and (hopefully - DEVS?) feared.

I agree. But (barbarian rage) was not one of the problems this topic is about. Madstone rage was the main example.

And considering they did NOT "fix" remove paralysys potions to be usuable while barbarian raged - whos to say they won't leave out half the potions in the next change?
I mean yea generaly for remove paralysys - who cares - but there is one situation where I wish I could use them;
Fighting cholthullz - in either black mausoleum or ghosts, he casts this permanent slow effect that cannot be displled or remove with haste - the only way to fix it is remove paralysys.

[Talcyndl]

I agree. But (barbarian rage) was not one of the problems this topic is about. Madstone rage was the main example.

And considering they did NOT "fix" remove paralysys potions to be usuable while barbarian raged - whos to say they won't leave out half the potions in the next change?
I mean yea generaly for remove paralysys - who cares - but there is one situation where I wish I could use them;
Fighting cholthullz - in either black mausoleum or ghosts, he casts this permanent slow effect that cannot be displled or remove with haste - the only way to fix it is remove paralysys.

Right. But the point is there is little to indicate that the Developers intentionally designed things so that potions would be useable in fewer situations. Rather, it appears that it was an unintended bug that they weren't useable while raged.

I would certainly hope that the developers now recognize the issue. So absent an express statement to the contrary (or reports from Risia) I'm not going to assume the worst.

[bobbryan2]

Right. But the point is there is little to indicate that the Developers intentionally designed things so that potions would be useable in fewer situations. Rather, it appears that it was an unintended bug that they weren't useable while raged.

I would certainly hope that the developers now recognize the issue. So absent an express statement to the contrary (or reports from Risia) I'm not going to assume the worst.

I will continue to believe that what we have now is what we will continue to have until, at the very least, a developer even acknowledges that they know potions do not work while madstone raged. Until they even admit that it's not working they way they intended, there's absolutely no indication that the people who need to know that potions don't work even know the problems.

[Talcyndl]

I will continue to believe that what we have now is what we will continue to have until, at the very least, a developer even acknowledges that they know potions do not work while madstone raged. Until they even admit that it's not working they way they intended, there's absolutely no indication that the people who need to know that potions don't work even know the problems.

Since they just fixed the regular rage bug, they are obviously aware of the general problem.

[bobbryan2]

Since they just fixed the regular rage bug, they are obviously aware of the general problem.

There's nothing obvious about it at all. In fact, fixing rage but not madstone implies to me that they chose not to fix it for madstone. (Simply because I find it very hard to believe they went through the trouble of fixing for regular rage and didn't even check it for other forms of rage). I find it hard to believe, not impossible.

My point is that when it's practically inexplicable why they didn't fix it for madstone at the same time, there's no guarantee how the next batch of potions will be fixed.

Again.. that's not even addressing the fact that all these potions will be drank more slowly. It'd be better if they kept potions exactly the same for when you drink it yourself, and only change the animations for when you affect others. I doubt most raged barbarians care if they're able to use lesser restore pots on other people.

[Kire]

Snip


Again.. that's not even addressing the fact that all these potions will be drank more slowly. It'd be better if they kept potions exactly the same for when you drink it yourself, and only change the animations for when you affect others. I doubt most raged barbarians care if they're able to use lesser restore pots on other people.

The main problem is that this will take alot more coding and time. Right now they can simply take the code they made for Lesser Restore Pots and throw it on the potions that they want. If they wanted the animation to change depending ont he target they would have to code this (this would prolly be a good bit of code because of recognizing variables and what not) then search their code for all the potions they ahve used the previous code for and replace it. Then test it.

Also you said that the animation takes too long. I do believe it takes longer to uncap a potion, put a funnel on it and spill down a party mates throat then it does to simply uncap a potion and chug it.

Of course we could just make potions throwing weapons that do 1d8 damage and teh effect:

(To Party):"Hey ranger can you throw me a restoration?"
(Party) Mr.RangerMan: "Sure"

(Combat): You Receive lesser restoration debuff.
(Combat): You take 6 bludgeon damage from Potion.

(To Party): "Hm thats odd. Hey Mr.RangerMan, can you throw me a cure light pot?"
(Party) Mr.RangerMan: "/sigh. Fine."

(Combat): You heal 4 damage from cure light wounds.
(Combat): You take 8 bludgeon damage from potion.

(To Party): "hey... hrm... can i have another?"
(Party) Mr.RangerMan: "Arg!! HERE!"

(Combat): You heal 4 damage from cure light wounds.
(Combat): You take 6 bludgeon damage from potion.
(Combat): You heal 6 damage from cure light wounds.
(Combat): You take 2 bludgeon damage from potion.
(Combat): You heal 2 damage from cure light wounds.
(Combat): You take 8 bludgeon damage from potion.
(Combat): You heal 8 damage from cure light wounds.
(Combat): You take 4 bludgeon damage from potion.

(To Party): "Uhm... Yeah im still down like 5 health. Heal please cleric?"


Wooh that took forever to type. Good fun though. And who wouldn't want to pelt some party members with potions?

~Kire

[Strakeln]

Anyone seen the movie "Hot Fuzz"? Kire's idea made me think of that trash can that kept getting thrown into people's faces.

[Shade]

There's nothing obvious about it at all. In fact, fixing rage but not madstone implies to me that they chose not to fix it for madstone. (Simply because I find it very hard to believe they went through the trouble of fixing for regular rage and didn't even check it for other forms of rage). I find it hard to believe, not impossible.

Well then you don't understand how coders think. Coders brains are very advanced, but do not work like regular humans you see - they see a problem as a bunch of lines of code we do not understand as something very easy to them. They change the code so that it all lines up right.. They test that line of code, and if it compiles and works- its shipped, QA takes a quick look at it and all is well. But to the actuall players - it turns out it's not so well as they thought see, they don't think that way. 1 problem gets 1 solution, thats it.

The fact the underlaying issue still remains is not there concern, the bug in the code was fixed and there job was complete. It's not hard for me to understand. I don't blame the coders who did the work - they did there job and did it well. It was someone else's job - the guy who has that job may not exist at turbine tho.

[Shade]

Oh few other great things i've noticed:

Interupted while using a clicky potion = its gone. You didn't drink it, you didn't click it onto someone else, you got interupted by a ledge/tumble/water/trip/breeze of soft air hitting you... And its gone, where did it go? no one knows, but its gone, you dont have it anymore. Hope they make menonic potions clickies so we can remove feblemidn on other players, really won't mind losing a few majors due to animation issues there.

Interupted while drinking a potion - sure it might happen, very very rarely.. But you know what, the potion isn't gone, its still there, ready to drink.

Failed Mummy rot - currently a 3 second potion drink fix, curse, disease, lesser restore. Soon to be a 18 second ordeal (12 seconds cooldown, 2 second animation x3). Fun. Good thing we can use em on other players tho, because you can't open a trade window to give another player a curse or disease potion.. Oh wait you can, but thats harder then waiting 18 seconds right.
Imagine if you got poisoned too - you'd be looking at a good 25 seconds to fix that doosy!

But potions are overpowered, so they should be slowed down. Nerf em all!

[Aspenor]

I'm going to have to agree that this probably wasn't necessary....who runs around without fear removal pots? They are like 50 gold....