Weekly Developer Activities: 3/24/08

[maddmatt70]

I think fighter vs barb is clear. Now lets compare fighter vs ranger:

Fighter bonus feats:
1, 2, 4, 6, 8, 10, 12, 14, 16.
(9 total at lvl 16)

TWF, ITWF, GTWF
That's 3 fighter feats spent. Ranger gets those for free AND the rangers don't even need 17 dex to get them.

4x favored enemy.
Considering in DDO there are not only less monster types, but we can also swap feats at will, and tune ourselves to each mod, I'd say 4x favored enemy are worth:
weapon focus, greater weapon focus, weapon specialization, greater weapon specialization, and more. It's obviously worth more than those, but we'll just say it's worth those 4 feats.

So now we're at 7 feats, minimum. Evasion for 8th feat and we're basically even with all the fighter bonus feats being cancelled out with good stuff execpt for the 9th feat. But rangers get rams might, which is +2 damage AND +2 str (so really it's worth more than 2 feats (i.e. weapon specialization and weapon focus) in terms of DPS, because those are only +2 damage and +1 to hit VS +3 damage, +1 to hit, +1 to all str based DCs for rams might). But a fighter gets 1d10 instead of 1d8 hp/level, so maybe we're even right now.

HOWEVER,
a ranger also gets bow str, all the extra bow combat feats, die hard, the empathy feats, spell casting, an extra primary saving throw (i.e. +5 more reflex save at lvl 16), +4 extra skill points per level more than the fighter, more class skills, ability to use wands...

At this point fighter is already in a sad place.
But then, the kicker, is rangers get tempest (+2 AC, 10% stacking alacrity) OR deepwood sniper.

Why bring a fighter now?

Paladin gives everyone a big AC, concentration, and save aura, and has LoH and smites and can cast resists, etc. So they still have a role. But really, fighter? Take a ranger or barb instead.

Again, this is all due to detractions from pnp core rules and giving classes extra feats and/or PrC related enhancements that are not supposed to be restricted to that class and/or are not supposed to exist in the first place. I'm not saying to nerf everyone though. Just give fighters some PrC related stuff of their own to even it out, or rework the current system and make all non racial PrC related enhancements feat/skill/attribute/BAB requirement based, instead of class based.

Well it comes down to hit points and situations really. Fighters have more hit points then rangers so in certain situations they are more desirable then rangers. Another way to somewhat neutralize rangers is to have alot of dungeons with a variety of mob types which neutralizes the rangers favored enemy advantage. The problem for fighters is that in the situations where they are more desirable then rangers (more hit points) the party can just get a barbarian and in the situations where hit points are not important the party can just grab a ranger. Fighters are stuck caught in the middle and hoping for the possibility of the very rare situation in the future where a fighter is as desirable as either class. Lets say a dungeon in the future with a ton of different mob types which neutralizes the rangers favored enemy, hit points are not essential, ooh how about mobs casting the calm emotions spell on barbarians, ac helps alot in the dungeon, etc. You can see I am really starting to reach here...

[Aesop]

/agree

Fighters need something to set them appart. And so do rogues.

Side note: Turbine could make rangers have to choose between ranged or two weapon and I think most rangers wouldnt notice the difference too much. They tend to be pretty focused down one way or the other most of the time...not all but most of the time.

I repeat the Fighter Suggestion I made earlier

Change Fighter's Critical Accuracy from just confirming Critical hits to a Seeker Effect that stacks with item Seeker Effects. THis isn't a cure all but it would give fighters a hallmark all their own and make an almost never taken enhancement a happier enhancement.

Rogues... put out Way of the Assassin II and include a Death Attack with a cooldown whose DC is Rogue Level +Int Modifier.

Also Incorporate Telling Blow which is a feat out of the Players Handbook II that applies a Rogue's Sneak Attack Damage to all confirmed Critical hits (fortification and immunities still apply)


aesop

[Velorn]

[B]Weekly Development Activities

General Feat Changes

• Insightful Reflexes and Force of Personality feats previously required that you logout and login to take effect; now they take effect immediately.

New Feats

• The following general changes have been made to existing enhancements:
  • The costs of Halfling Cunning I - III and Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy I - III have been reduced to 1 action point per level.
  • The bonus granted by Rogue Sneak Attack Training has been increased to 3 points of sneak attack damage per level.
  • Rogue Way of the Assassin I now grants a passive +4 bonus to sneak attack damage in addition to its other effects.
  • The effect of Paladin Divine Righteousness I, Rogue Way of the Assassin I active abilities, and Rogue Way of the Thief-Acrobat I "show time" now lasts 60 seconds instead of 20 seconds.
  • Barbarian and Rogue Trap Sense enhancements now grant a +2 bonus to saves vs. traps per level instead of +1.
    
  • Paladin Bulwark of Good and Resistance of Good costs reduced to 1 point per level
  • Paladin Focus of Good now grants +3, +6, or +9 to Concentration checks.
  • Paladin Courage of Good now grants +2, +4, or +6 to Fear saves.
• The following iconic monk feats have been added to the game:
  • Purity of Body – You are immune to all forms of disease, including magical or supernatural diseases.
  • Wholeness of Body – Permits a monk to regain health over time.
  • Diamond Body – You have mastered your metabolism, and are immune to poison.
  • Timeless Body – Your body and soul are your own, and you do not create spawn effects should you fall in combat with the undead. NOTE: This is a level 17 feat, available to level 17 Monks and higher.
  • Still Mind and Fast Movement for the monk have been added to the game.

Enhancements
New Enhancements[LIST][*]Halfling Cunning IV

• Cost: 4 Action Points
• Prereqs: Level 14 Halfling, Halfling Cunning III, 48 action points spent.
• Benefit: You gain an additional +1 bonus to attack rolls when flanking an enemy, bringing the total increase to 4.

[*]Halfling Guile I

• Cost: 1 Action Point
• Prereqs: Level 3 Halfling, Halfling Cunning I, 7 action points spent.
• Benefit: You gain +2 to your sneak attack damage and +1 to bluff.

[*]Halfling Guile II

• Cost: 2 Action Points
• Prereqs: Level 7 Halfling, Halfling Cunning II, Halfling Guile I, 22 action points spent.
• Benefit: You gain an additional +2 to your sneak attack damage, bringing the total increase to 4, and an additional +1 to bluff, bringing the total increase to 2.

[*]Halfling Guile III

• Cost: 3 Action Points
• Prereqs: Level 11 Halfling, Halfling Cunning III, Halfling Guile II, 37 action points spent.
• Benefit: You gain an additional +2 to your sneak attack damage, bringing the total increase to 6, and an additional +1 to bluff, bringing the total increase to 3.

[*]Halfling Guile IV

• Cost: 4 Action Points
• Prereqs: Level 15 Halfling, Halfling Cunning IV, Halfling Guile III, 52 action points spent.
• Benefit: You gain an additional +2 to your sneak attack damage, bringing the total increase to 8, and an additional +1 to bluff, bringing the total increase to 4.

[*]Paladin Bulwark of Good IV:

• Cost: 8 Action Points

• Prereqs: Level 15 Paladin, Paladin Bulwark of Good III, 48 action points spent.
• Benefit: Your aura of good provides an additional +4 Armor Class bonus.

[*]Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy IV:[LIST][*]Cost: 4 Action Points

The highlighted in red seem to be a contradiction. Please clarify. Should not the 4th level be 4 points as per the first statement? Thanks

/Edit...I omitted a lot of Quarion's post for space.

[jjflanigan]

The highlighted in red seem to be a contradiction. Please clarify. Should not the 4th level be 4 points as per the first statement? Thanks

/Edit...I omitted a lot of Quarion's post for space.

That was already answered by a dev in a WDA thread. It's a typo, it should list 4 points there, not 8.

[Vhlad]

Well it comes down to hit points and situations really. Fighters have more hit points then rangers so in certain situations they are more desirable then rangers.

You can build a high hp (and effective) ranger with only 1 toughness feat (other feats spent on improved crit, dodge, mobility, spring attack, and khopesh).

i.e. 18/14/18 dwarf
30 str (32 with rams might, 34 with madstone rage x1), 26 dex, 28 con (32 with madstone rage x1), 8 int, 16 wis, 6 cha
three +2 tomes and one +3 tome used (i.e. which is the same as my fighter). Rest are just +6 stat items. (no exceptional bonuses from shroud included).

He'd end up with 418 hp using:
greater false life
1 toughness feat + enhancements
minos helm
gianthold favor
(or 450 hp with madstone rage x1)

If you pick human for example instead, you can spend the extra feat on a second toughness (to counter the dwarf con bonus), but lose the 50 hp enhancement.
so 370 hp in that case
(402 with madstone rage x1)
(or 352 with just 1 toughness still; 384 with madstone rage x1)

Yes a fighter can potentially get more hp (and well, so can a ranger if you started with say 20 con and only took toughness, but the maximum difference is 50 (full fighter enhancement) + 32 (fighter d10 vs ranger d8, at lvl 16)). However, about 350hp is enough for any situation so far. And there's always the benefit of taking out the bow and hanging back while still dealing good DPS but being safe if for example in some extreme situation where you need a barb with 700+ hp.

[maddmatt70]

You can build a very high damage & DPS ranger with only 1 toughness feat (other feats spent on improved crit, dodge, mobility, spring attack, and khopesh).

i.e. 18/14/18 dwarf
30 str (32 with rams might, 34 with madstone rage x1), 26 dex, 28 con (32 with madstone rage x1), 8 int, 16 wis, 6 cha
three +2 tomes and one +3 tome used (i.e. which is the same as my fighter). Rest are just +6 stat items. (no exceptional bonuses from shroud included).

He'd end up with 418 hp using:
greater false life
1 toughness feat + enhancements
minos helm
gianthold favor
(or 450 hp with madstone rage x1)

If you pick human for example instead, you can spend the extra feat on a second toughness (to counter the dwarf con bonus), but lose the 50 hp enhancement.
so 370 hp in that case
(402 with madstone rage x1)

Yes a fighter can potentially get more hp (and well, so can a ranger if you started with say 20 con and only took toughness, but the maximum difference is 50 (full fighter enhancement) + 32 (fighter d10 vs ranger d8, at lvl 16)). However, about 350hp is enough for any situation so far. And there's always the benefit of taking out the bow and hanging back while still dealing good DPS but being safe if for example in some extreme situation where you need a barb with 700+ hp.

Hey I didn't say fighters were in a good place. Fighter tactics doesn't work on red names which could potentially be another advantage but is so muted in ddo because of the overpowering fears the devs have if the tactics worked on the reds. Really the fighter advantage over rangers is hit points which sadly isn't even that big an advantage especially since barbarians are built to have more hit points then fighters. The hit point advantage in my opinion doesn't make up for the rangers other goodies these days so rangers definitely are looking good right now.. For those who say pallys are hurting yeah I hear you. We will see what the devs come up with for that one.

[Vhlad]

Hey I didn't say fighters were in a good place. Fighter tactics doesn't work on red names which could potentially be another advantage but is so muted in ddo because of the overpowering fears the devs have if the tactics worked on the reds. Really the fighter advantage over rangers is hit points which sadly isn't even that big an advantage especially since barbarians are built to have more hit points then fighters. The hit point advantage in my opinion doesn't make up for the rangers other goodies these days so rangers definitely are looking good right now.. For those who say pallys are hurting yeah I hear you. We will see what the devs come up with for that one.

Stunning blow on queen
Trip on titan

those were the days

evasion in mithral full plate
attacking fast via pressing your weapon in the hotbar
attacking fast via timing strafe movement well
doing a quest on elite with high AC and having it matter

the golden age of the fighter is long gone.

Power gamers take note and change as the golden age changes.
Mod 5 was the golden age of the sorc and cleric. 6 minute elite ghosts of perdition runs, abbot raids with 8 sorcs and 4 clerics, etc.

Now it's the golden age of the barbarian and ranger.
a TWF ranger with w/p is just as good as a twf barb. The critical rage for barb makes it 13/x2 instead of 15/x2, which is a 10% difference in puncturing, and the ranger 10% stacking melee alacrity matches it.

[Hvymetal]

Stunning blow on queen
Trip on titan

those were the days

evasion in mithral full plate
attacking fast via pressing your weapon in the hotbar
attacking fast via timing strafe movement well
doing a quest on elite with high AC and having it matter

the golden age of the fighter is long gone.

Power gamers take note and change as the golden age changes.
Mod 5 was the golden age of the sorc and cleric. 6 minute elite ghosts of perdition runs, abbot raids with 8 sorcs and 4 clerics, etc.

Now it's the golden age of the barbarian and ranger.
a TWF ranger with w/p is just as good as a twf barb. The critical rage for barb makes it 13/x2 instead of 15/x2, which is a 10% difference in puncturing, and the ranger 10% stacking melee alacrity matches it.

And sadly the Golden Age of the Paladin was pre mod-4 and the Rogue will probablly never have a "Golden Age" /sigh

[Vhlad]

And sadly the Golden Age of the Paladin was pre mod-4 and the Rogue will probablly never have a "Golden Age" /sigh

The paladin shared the golden age with the fighter. DPS was pretty comparable except paladins were awesome to have for von 2-3, xorian cipher, invaders, well any quest actually since their AC aura really made a difference. Now when you get an AC boost the mobs don't seem to notice.

Rogue is tough, because I can make an awesome dwarf DPS rogue build, with lots of hp, but halfling is getting some really nice sneak attack damage enhancements so my min-maxing self is torn. A rogue with a radiance II weapon is in good shape.

[gpk]

The paladin shared the golden age with the fighter. DPS was pretty comparable except paladins were awesome to have for von 2-3, xorian cipher, invaders, well any quest actually since their AC aura really made a difference. Now when you get an AC boost the mobs don't seem to notice.

Rogue is tough, because I can make an awesome dwarf DPS rogue build, with lots of hp, but halfling is getting some really nice sneak attack damage enhancements so my min-maxing self is torn. A rogue with a radiance II weapon is in good shape.

Ah Radiance2 , a rogue's Holy Avenger, 20% chance of getting auto-sneaks on most mobs. Add to that more sneaks and more halfthing sneaks in Mod 7, ~permanent BAB 1:1 (if needed) and you have a very interesting development...

As far as "Golden Ages" go, it's never ok for a class to totally outshine another to the point where the other classes are near-useless (see mod5). Where paladins strong in mod1 and 2? Yes. Too strong? Prolly, coulda used a tweak, Mod3 and mod3 enhancements took care of that. Did the pally eclipse all other classes in Mod 1-2? Of course not.
Do you nerf and ignore a class in mod4+ because it was maybe a bit too strong in mod1 and 2? Heck no.

This idea of "revenge nerfing" that's been popular in the forums in mod5 is just absurd, golden age or no golden age.

[JD2134]

What about the horns that drop in the shroud. Will we be able to trade them for ingerdents we need. or use them to increase a weapons stats somehow.

Also the portal fragments quest seem to be broken as there not keeping a count. I have 23 fragments and only 3 on the counter

[Slapphappy]

Hey Dev's

This all looks good. On the whole, DDO is a solid game, but here are my thoughts for improvements in mod 7 or later.

1. I would like more character slots. At least one for monk, but actually I would like another half dozen.

2. Please do something about the cooldowns on clikcies. Either reduce the cooldown or add items of higher caster level. For example, ring of shield, caster level 10, or something like that.

Keep up the good work!

[dragnmoon]

What about the horns that drop in the shroud. Will we be able to trade them for ingerdents we need. or use them to increase a weapons stats somehow.

Also the portal fragments quest seem to be broken as there not keeping a count. I have 23 fragments and only 3 on the counter

They already addressed this... The will be useful for something in Mod 7...They were not supposed to be in Mod 6... was an opsie

[Aesop]

On the subject of Character Slots.

I think for Each new Class Added a new character slot should also be added.

additionally I would like a Premium Service Option to purchase an additional character slot...say for $9.99 or even over that heck $14.99 would be fine by me

Aesop

[gpk]

They already addressed this... The will be useful for something in Mod 7...They were not supposed to be in Mod 6... was an opsie

I think quite a few ppl expected horns to be fixed in the 6.1 patch however.
Quite a few people seem to have ~1 large horn to every 4 large ingredients; that's quite a few wasted hours due to large horns...