Weekly Developer Activities: 3/24/08

[Turial]

Vhlad is correct, +2 critical multiplier is WAY more powerful than a +2 critical range for a barbarian.

Any time you mess with critical related stuff for a very strong baseline class like a bbn, the benefits are much greater and a multiplier increase for a bbn is MUCH stronger than a range increase for a bbn DPS-wise (not counting special crit effect weapons like smiters etc.)

We would have been in a much worse situation now if the Crit Rage multiplier was increased rather than the range.

Edit: Think SoS

From a damage standpoint, yes the critical multiplier is better then critical rage and thats the point. Barbarians are good at dealing lots of damage. They are not good at precise hits against vulnerable locations on a target. An increased critical range represents the ability to precisely strike a target. Along with that critical range increase comes the ability for critical abilities to trigger more often which oddly enough makes it better for barbarians to use fairly low damage dealing weapons with powerful critical effects, W/P weapons, banishers, smiters, then to use weapons which deal large amounts of damage (obviously red and purple named mobs don't apply to this particular analysis). This is what disturbs me about the barbarian critical rage enhancement.

Side note:
So I plugged equal barbarians into the DDO weapon damage calculator...both have 40 str, corresponding two-handed fighting feats, etc. One gets increased critical multiplier of +2 (19-20/x5) and the other gets increased critical range of +2 (17-20/x3). Both are using a standard +5 great axe for comparing apples to apples. For me the damage graphs for the two barbarians were exactly the same. Was I doing something wrong or is the average potential damage the same regardless of the way the critical bonus is applied in a basic comparison?

[gpk]

From a damage standpoint, yes the critical multiplier is better then critical rage and thats the point. Barbarians are good at dealing lots of damage. They are not good at precise hits against vulnerable locations on a target. An increased critical range represents the ability to precisely strike a target. Along with that critical range increase comes the ability for critical abilities to trigger more often which oddly enough makes it better for barbarians to use fairly low damage dealing weapons with powerful critical effects, W/P weapons, banishers, smiters, then to use weapons which deal large amounts of damage (obviously red and purple named mobs don't apply to this particular analysis). This is what disturbs me about the barbarian critical rage enhancement.

Side note:
So I plugged equal barbarians into the DDO weapon damage calculator...both have 40 str, corresponding two-handed fighting feats, etc. One gets increased critical multiplier of +2 (19-20/x5) and the other gets increased critical range of +2 (17-20/x3). Both are using a standard +5 great axe for comparing apples to apples. For me the damage graphs for the two barbarians were exactly the same. Was I doing something wrong or is the average potential damage the same regardless of the way the critical bonus is applied in a basic comparison?

No you didn't do anything wrong, you just need to look at adifferent weapon types.

For fun start with Sword of Shadow then Deathnips, then plug in greatsword, falchions, khopeshes, picks then axes and mauls.

The SoS numbers are especially interesting.

Personally I've always fealt that playing with class based crit tweaks is a mistake unless you give the same option to ALL primary combat classes, and even then clearly the BBN benefits more by any crit tweaks than other classes.

I still think it's better to just nerf crit rage 2 already and change it to a a Massive Critical type damage boost, Xd6 rather than anythign crit range or multiplier dependant. Class based criticals to me imply better training not brute raging strength i.e. fighters or PrC and not barbarians; hence Weapon Masters PrC (which in DDO could be very dangerous)

To continually use the "well we won't give any classes anything as powerful as crit rage 2" is line is starting to get old, especially when you don't even give another class anything as good as even Ram's Might.

[Vhlad]

From a damage standpoint, yes the critical multiplier is better then critical rage and thats the point. Barbarians are good at dealing lots of damage. They are not good at precise hits against vulnerable locations on a target.

This is why barbs should have ways to increase base damage, or power attack damage. Not critical range or multiplier stuff.

So I plugged equal barbarians into the DDO weapon damage calculator...both have 40 str, corresponding two-handed fighting feats, etc. One gets increased critical multiplier of +2 (19-20/x5) and the other gets increased critical range of +2 (17-20/x3). Both are using a standard +5 great axe for comparing apples to apples. For me the damage graphs for the two barbarians were exactly the same. Was I doing something wrong or is the average potential damage the same regardless of the way the critical bonus is applied in a basic comparison?

It's going to depend on the weapon. There are weapons where a +2 to the crit multiplier will add an amount of DPS equivalent to a +2 to the crit range (which is I believe anything with a base crit range of 20, besides heavy and light picks (+2 range is better than +2 crit mult for those)). All the other weapons however gain substancially more benefit from +2 to the crit mult than they would from +2 to the crit range. Do the same calculation with a scimitar, khopesh, falchion, rapier, longsword, or sword of shadow for example.
(this is assuming the improved critical feat is taken).

[DareDelvis]

Here is a question, would the increased crit mulitplier apply to bursting effects in terms of the number of die for damage?

So, for example, flaming burst greataxe does an addional 4d10 instead of 2d10 on a 19-20 for slash spec'd barb, or picks 5d10 instead of 3d10 on a 19-20 for pierce spec'd barb.

Or, would you say that bursting effects are a product of the weapon and not the wielder?

[Vhlad]

Class based criticals to me imply better training not brute raging strength i.e. fighters or PrC and not barbarians; hence Weapon Masters PrC (which in DDO could be very dangerous)

To continually use the "well we won't give any classes anything as powerful as crit rage 2" is line is starting to get old, especially when you don't even give another class anything as good as even Ram's Might.

Well weapon master needs ranks in intimidate (probably translated to intimidate II enhancement), dodge, mobility, spring attack, weapon focus, combat expertise, whirlwind attack.
i.e. 13 int, 13 dex

It's a huge amount of feats (that are all quite underused and underpowered in DDO) to get the weapon master PrC crit range/threat increases. A high level barb gets +2 crit range where being a barb is the only requirement!
Rangers rams might, tempest, and free feats in DDO puts them above the fighter in DPS as well. And they get spell casting, evasion, animal stuff, more skill points per level, etc.

So yeah. Fighters need some love. Paladins are getting some it looks like. Rogues are too (especially halfling rogues, or rogues using a radiance II crafted weapon).

[MysticTheurge]

Personally I've always fealt that playing with class based crit tweaks is a mistake ...

And you're not the only one.

[TechNoFear]

Vhlad is correct, +2 critical multiplier is WAY more powerful than a +2 critical range for a barbarian.

Actually they are equal, averaged over all weapon types.

An increase in range is better overall as it increases the frequency of critical effects (burst, crippling, maiming, banish etc).



A simplistic calculation…

[Assumes; roll 20 times scoring each number 1-20, which is a hit every time and confirms crit every time]

Pick [20 / x4]
19 normal hits, 1 x 4 hit = 23 ‘normal’ hits.
Pick [18-20 / x4]
17 normal and 3 x 4 = 29 ‘normal’ hits. Damage increased by ~25%, crit effects increased 200%.
Pick [19-20 / x6]
19 normal and 1 x 6 = 25 ‘normal’ hits. Damage increased by ~10%.

Rapier [18-20 / x2]
17 normal + 3 x 2 = 23 ‘normal hits.
Rapier [16-20 / x2]
15 normal and 5 x 2 = 25 ‘normal’ hits. Damage increased by ~10%, crit effects increased 67%.
Rapier [18-20 / x4]
17 normal and 3 x 4 = 29 ‘normal’ hits. Damage increased by ~25%.

[gpk]

Actually they are equal, averaged over all weapon types.

An increase in range is better overall as it increases the frequency of critical effects (burst, crippling, maiming, banish etc).

Run some real world numbers w SoS and other types of weapons, picks axes and mauls last.
The SoS numbers alone are frightening.

[Geonis]

Math that doesn't take into account the +1 to crit multiplier is fallacious.

I'm not saying your overall impression of the thing is wrong (or right). You just need to account for the +1 crit multiplier.

Okay, so best case scenario at level 4 is a Keen Rapier/Scimitar/Falcion, with a possible 22 Str at level 4.

This means a ~30% chance of doing 50% more damage (x3 instead of times 2), this does not take into account not confirming.

Let's assume you confirm 1/2 of the threats, that means 15% chance of dealing an extra 50%.

The base damage (best case) is 2d4 + 11.

A "Divine Sacrifice" crit would be (2d4 + 11)x3 + 5d6 = ~65.5(average) and would happen ~15% of the time (on average).

The increase from "Divine Sacrifice" over regular crit is 16 points, this averages to 2.4 more points per use of "Divine Sacrifice".

So, you're looking at ~20 points of damage with "Divine Sacrifice", so the damage is 2-to-1 enemy vs self.

Problem is, there are very few enemies without way more than double the HPs of any given character, much less a Paladin.



"Divine Sacrifice" numbers with Keen Khopesh:



This means a ~20% chance of doing 33% more damage (x4 instead of times 3), this does not take into account not confirming.

Let's assume you confirm 1/2 of the threats, that means 10% chance of dealing an extra 33%.

The base damage (best case) is 1d8 +8.

A "Divine Sacrifice" crit would be (1d8 + 8)x4 + 5d6 = ~67.5(average) and would happen ~10% of the time (on average).

The increase from "Divine Sacrifice" over regular crit is 12.5 points, this averages to 1.25 more points per use of "Divine Sacrifice".

[Vhlad]

Actually they are equal, averaged over all weapon types.

No, they're not. Do the caclulation with the improved crit feat, since every non gimp who cares about DPS takes it (or uses keen) and any calculation without it is meaningless.

Heavy and light picks are better off with range, excluding deathnip.
Any weapon with a base crit range of 20/x3 = equivalent DPS
Any currently existing weapon with a base crit range of 20/x2 or 19/ derives greater benefit from increased multiplier, including deathnip
Any currently existing weapon with a base crit range of 18/ derives much greater benefit from increased multiplier.

Lets walk through the math together (again, improved crit feat or keen is a must).

13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20
x...x...x...x...x...x...x...x
x...x...x...x...x...x...x...x
x...x...x...x...x...x...x...x
.........x...x...x...x...x...x
.........x...x...x...x...x...x
..................x...x...x...x

Pick (20/x4 base):
19/x6 = 14x total on rolls 17-20
17/x4 = 16x total on rolls 17-20

Maul, Axe (20/x3 base):
19/x5 = 12x total on rolls 17-20
17/x3 = 12x total on rolls 17-20

Sickle, staff, mace (20/x2 base):
19/x4 = 10x total on rolls 17-20
17/x2 = 8x total on rolls 17-20

Khopesh (19/x3 base):
17/x5 = 22x total on rolls 15-20
15/x3 = 18x total on rolls 15-20

Deathnip (19/x4 base):
17/x6 = 26x total on rolls 15-20
15/x4 = 24x total on rolls 15-20

Longsword, bastard sword (19/x2 base):
17/x4 = 18x total on rolls 15-20
15/x2 = 12x total on rolls 15-20

Rapier, scimitar, falchion (18/x2 base):
15/x4 = 26x total on rolls 13-20
13/x2 = 16x total on rolls 13-20

SoS (18/x3 base):
15/x5 = 32x total on rolls 13-20
13/x3 = 24x total on rolls 13-20

An increase of +2 crit mult is MASSIVELY superior overall.

[gpk]

No, they're not. Do the caclulation with the improved crit feat, since every non gimp who cares about DPS takes it (or uses keen) and any calculation without it is meaningless.

Heavy and light picks are better off with range, excluding deathnip.
Any weapon with a base crit range of 20/x3 = equivalent DPS
Any currently existing weapon with a base crit range of 20/x2 or 19/ derives greater benefit from increased multiplier, including deathnip
Any currently existing weapon with a base crit range of 18/ derives much greater benefit from increased multiplier.

Lets walk through the math together (again, improved crit feat or keen is a must).
[...]

An increase of +2 crit mult is MASSIVELY superior overall.

Thanks for taking the time to explain it properly.

As a side note, since X is of much higher value for a barbarian, the benefits are much greater for said barbarian than they would be for a paladin.

It's a double whammy, even if they gave every other class ~permanent critical range+2 it would not be as powerful as it is for the barbarian
(maybe ranger fav nme? Too tired for math).

[Vhlad]

I'm going to do it again, but this time base everything off of 12-20, to standardize the total damage so people can choose which weapons to take. I'll try to include everything. This really shows how DPS can double with barb crit rage, or even deepwood sniper. But the paladin ability and deepwood sniper are all cooldown clicky based and have requirements or drawbacks, whereas critcal rage is just super powerful. Barbs are a class that have the highest base damage. That's how they're balanced in pnp. Fighters can take weapon master to achieve higher crit damage, but the barbarian in pnp would always be better vs monsters immune to crits (as would rangers vs favored enemies). Right now in DDO, barbs deal the most DPS against everything, have higher will saves and hp and skill points than fighters. Rangers totally outclass fighters too (even in melee combat), and this is all due to the current enhancements and other detractions from the core rules.

Key:
(standard) = improved critical feat or keen only (currently non-stacking with each other). All other effects assume improved crit or keen is included.
(mult+1) = paladin ability
(range +2) = barbarian critical rage
(mult +2) = not currently in DDO (hence why it is greyed out)
(mult +1, range +1) = deepwood sniper
(mult +1, range +3) = lvl 14 barb/6 ranger

12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20
x...x...x...x...x...x...x...x...x
x...x...x...x...x...x...x...x...x
x...x...x...x...x...x...x...x...x
.............x...x...x...x...x...x
.............x...x...x...x...x...x
......................x...x...x...x

All totals are for rolls of 12-20:

Pick (20/x4 base):
19/x4 (standard) = 15x
19/x5 (mult +1) = 17x
17/x4 (range +2) = 21x
19/x6 (mult +2) = 19x

Maul, Axe, Longbow/shortbow (20/x3 base):
19/x3 (standard) = 13x
19/x4 (mult +1) = 15x
17/x3 (range +2) = 17x
19/x5 (mult +2) = 17x
18/x4 (mult +1, range +1) = 18x
16/x4 (mult +1, range +3) = 24x

Sickle, staff, mace, throwing hammer (20/x2 base):
19/x2 (standard) = 11x
19/x3 (mult +1) = 13x
17/x2 (range +2) = 13x
19/x4 (mult +2) = 15x
18/x3 (mult +1, range +1) = 15x
16/x3 (mult +1, range +3) = 19x

Khopesh, silver bow (19/x3 base):
17/x3 (standard) = 17x
17/x4 (mult +1) = 21x
15/x3 (range +2) = 21x
17/x5 (mult +2) = 25x
16/x4 (mult +1, range +1) = 24x
14/x4 (mult +1, range +3) = 30x

Deathnip (19/x4 base):
17/x4 (standard) = 21x
17/x5 (mult +1) = 25x
15/x4 (range +2) = 27x
17/x6 (mult +2) = 29x

Longsword, bastard sword, heavy/light crossbow, repeaters (19/x2 base):
17/x2 (standard) = 13x
17/x3 (mult +1) = 17x
15/x2 (range +2) = 15x
17/x4 (mult +2) = 21x
16/x3 (mult +1, range +1) = 19x
14/x3 (mult +1, range +3) = 23x

Rapier, scimitar, falchion, great crossbow (18/x2 base):
15/x2 (standard) = 15x
15/x3 (mult +1) = 21x
13/x2 (range +2) = 17x
15/x4 (mult +2) = 27x
14/x3 (mult +1, range +1) = 23x
12/x3 (mult +1, range +3) = 27x

SoS (18/x3 base):
15/x3 (standard) = 21x
15/x4 (mult +1) = 27x
13/x3 (range +2) = 25x
15/x5 (mult +2) = 33x

[Seylene]

I'm going to do it again, but this time base everything off of 12-20, to standardize the total damage so people can choose which weapons to take. I'll try to include everything. This really shows how DPS can double with barb crit rage, or even deepwood sniper. But the paladin ability and deepwood sniper are all cooldown clicky based and have requirements or drawbacks, whereas critcal rage is just super powerful. Barbs are a class that have the highest base damage. That's how they're balanced in pnp. Fighters can take weapon master to achieve higher crit damage, but the barbarian in pnp would always be better vs monsters immune to crits (as would rangers vs favored enemies). Right now in DDO, barbs deal the most DPS against everything, have higher will saves and hp and skill points than fighters. Rangers totally outclass fighters too (even in melee combat), and this is all due to the current enhancements and other detractions from the core rules.

Key:
(standard) = improved critical feat or keen only (currently non-stacking with each other). All other effects assume improved crit or keen is included.
(mult+1) = paladin ability
(range +2) = barbarian critical rage
(mult +2) = not currently in DDO (hence why it is greyed out)
(mult +1, range +1) = deepwood sniper
(mult +1, range +3) = lvl 14 barb/6 ranger

12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20
x...x...x...x...x...x...x...x...x
x...x...x...x...x...x...x...x...x
x...x...x...x...x...x...x...x...x
.............x...x...x...x...x...x
.............x...x...x...x...x...x
......................x...x...x...x

All totals are for rolls of 12-20:

Pick (20/x4 base):
19/x4 (standard) = 15x
19/x5 (mult +1) = 17x
17/x4 (range +2) = 21x
19/x6 (mult +2) = 19x

Maul, Axe, Longbow/shortbow (20/x3 base):
19/x3 (standard) = 13x
19/x4 (mult +1) = 15x
17/x3 (range +2) = 17x
19/x5 (mult +2) = 17x
18/x4 (mult +1, range +1) = 18x
16/x4 (mult +1, range +3) = 24x

Sickle, staff, mace, throwing hammer (20/x2 base):
19/x2 (standard) = 11x
19/x3 (mult +1) = 13x
17/x2 (range +2) = 13x
19/x4 (mult +2) = 15x
18/x3 (mult +1, range +1) = 15x
16/x3 (mult +1, range +3) = 19x

Khopesh, silver bow (19/x3 base):
17/x3 (standard) = 17x
17/x4 (mult +1) = 21x
15/x3 (range +2) = 21x
17/x5 (mult +2) = 25x
16/x4 (mult +1, range +1) = 24x
14/x4 (mult +1, range +3) = 30x

Deathnip (19/x4 base):
17/x4 (standard) = 21x
17/x5 (mult +1) = 25x
15/x4 (range +2) = 27x
17/x6 (mult +2) = 29x

Longsword, bastard sword, heavy/light crossbow, repeaters (19/x2 base):
17/x2 (standard) = 13x
17/x3 (mult +1) = 17x
15/x2 (range +2) = 15x
17/x4 (mult +2) = 21x
16/x3 (mult +1, range +1) = 19x
14/x3 (mult +1, range +3) = 23x

Rapier, scimitar, falchion, great crossbow (18/x2 base):
15/x2 (standard) = 15x
15/x3 (mult +1) = 21x
13/x2 (range +2) = 17x
15/x4 (mult +2) = 27x
14/x3 (mult +1, range +1) = 23x
12/x3 (mult +1, range +3) = 27x

SoS (18/x3 base):
15/x3 (standard) = 21x
15/x4 (mult +1) = 27x
13/x3 (range +2) = 25x
15/x5 (mult +2) = 33x

Vhlad is my hero!!

[Turial]

This really shows how DPS can double with barb crit rage, or even deepwood sniper. But the paladin ability and deepwood sniper are all cooldown clicky based and have requirements or drawbacks, whereas critcal rage is just super powerful. Barbs are a class that have the highest base damage. That's how they're balanced in pnp. Fighters can take weapon master to achieve higher crit damage, but the barbarian in pnp would always be better vs monsters immune to crits (as would rangers vs favored enemies). Right now in DDO, barbs deal the most DPS against everything, have higher will saves and hp and skill points than fighters. Rangers totally outclass fighters too (even in melee combat), and this is all due to the current enhancements and other detractions from the core rules.

Nice breakdown of the math.

Now if you restrict the barb critical multiplication bonus to two-handed weapons (the ranger one is held to bows only and the paladin one drains hp and sp) the really outlandish items are the SOS and falchions. And it would also eliminate the worry that barb 14/ ranger 6 builds will end up dominating the game from a ranged combat perspective.

Also rangers only outclass fighters in two-weapon melee combat. In single handed they are roughly even when built the same and ranged combat doesnt even compare.

Honestly though the issue is less about damage and more about critical effects triggering much more often for barbarians then any other class period.

[Drith]

The issue regarding the gap between Fighter DPS Versus Ranger / Barbarian DPS is becoming a groing problem in the game and it is forcing me to play my fighter less and less which is incredibly sadening to me to see yet another one of my characters fall of the face of "USEFULLNESS" in Eberon.


There are tons of shroud groups being made by all sorts of different people. More and more we are seeing shroud groups that will NOT invite fighters. On our server (The Lanis) Almost every night you will see a shroud group leader who will invite 1 Paladin for the paladin abilities and then all the rest of the DPS is either Rangers or Barbarians.

I specifically tried to join the group and was turned down because my DPS wasn't as good as a barbarians.

Now I'm not saying that fighters cannot get into shroud PUGS. What I am saying is that we are seeing the effects of the fact that Fighter DPS very significantly trails barbarian DPS and that it is effecting the usefullness and desire to have Fighters in groups in DDO.

Essencially if things continue to get worse from the way they are now fighters are going to be in very big trouble in the next mod or two.

Please do whatever you can do to make the Fighter a desireable class to be in the party again.

I mean the Fighter is one of the most CENTRAL class types in Dungeons and Dragons .... seeing the fighter fall off the face of usefullness is an insult to everything Gary Gygax (RIP) created!

[Vhlad]

I think fighter vs barb is clear. Now lets compare fighter vs ranger:

Fighter bonus feats:
1, 2, 4, 6, 8, 10, 12, 14, 16.
(9 total at lvl 16)

TWF, ITWF, GTWF
That's 3 fighter feats spent. Ranger gets those for free AND the rangers don't even need 17 dex to get them.

4x favored enemy.
Considering in DDO there are not only less monster types, but we can also swap feats at will, and tune ourselves to each mod, I'd say 4x favored enemy are worth:
weapon focus, greater weapon focus, weapon specialization, greater weapon specialization, and more. It's obviously worth more than those, but we'll just say it's worth those 4 feats.

So now we're at 7 feats, minimum. Evasion for 8th feat and we're basically even with all the fighter bonus feats being cancelled out with good stuff execpt for the 9th feat. But rangers get rams might, which is +2 damage AND +2 str (so really it's worth more than 2 feats (i.e. weapon specialization and weapon focus) in terms of DPS, because those are only +2 damage and +1 to hit VS +3 damage, +1 to hit, +1 to all str based DCs for rams might). But a fighter gets 1d10 instead of 1d8 hp/level, so maybe we're even right now.

HOWEVER,
a ranger also gets bow str, all the extra bow combat feats, die hard, the empathy feats, spell casting, an extra primary saving throw (i.e. +5 more reflex save at lvl 16), +4 extra skill points per level more than the fighter, more class skills, ability to use wands...

At this point fighter is already in a sad place.
But then, the kicker, is rangers get tempest (+2 AC, 10% stacking alacrity) OR deepwood sniper.

Why bring a fighter now?

Paladin gives everyone a big AC, concentration, and save aura, and has LoH and smites and can cast resists, etc. So they still have a role. But really, fighter? Take a ranger or barb instead.

Again, this is all due to detractions from pnp core rules and giving classes extra feats and/or PrC related enhancements that are not supposed to be restricted to that class and/or are not supposed to exist in the first place. I'm not saying to nerf everyone though. Just give fighters some PrC related stuff of their own to even it out, or rework the current system and make all non racial PrC related enhancements feat/skill/attribute/BAB requirement based, instead of class based.

[Turial]

Again, this is all due to detractions from pnp core rules and giving classes extra feats and/or PrC related enhancements that are not supposed to be restricted to that class and/or are not supposed to exist in the first place. I'm not saying to nerf everyone though. Just give fighters some PrC related stuff of their own to even it out, or rework the current system and make all non racial PrC related enhancements feat/skill/attribute/BAB requirement based, instead of class based.

/agree

Fighters need something to set them appart. And so do rogues.

Side note: Turbine could make rangers have to choose between ranged or two weapon and I think most rangers wouldnt notice the difference too much. They tend to be pretty focused down one way or the other most of the time...not all but most of the time.

[llevenbaxx]

But where do paladins fit into this equation?

..VS Evil/Outsiders

but give them range and multiplier against these sworn enemies. Convinient? Maybe... Justifiable? Certainly imo...

[llevenbaxx]

The issue regarding the gap between Fighter DPS Versus Ranger / Barbarian DPS is becoming a groing problem in the game and it is forcing me to play my fighter less and less which is incredibly sadening to me to see yet another one of my characters fall of the face of "USEFULLNESS" in Eberon.

Try being a mostly paly/ftr. Two different groups last night(both looking for melee and clr) I couldnt even get a response from the leaders(and they were up for a good couple minute) of the particular Shroud raids. Let them know I was offensively focused. They would rather sit and wait. See how much this means Turbine?

Was kinda nice logging my clr on to get a /t from the one "SHROUD?" and being able to tell him to go **** off.

[Drith]

Try being a mostly paly/ftr. Two different groups last night(both looking for melee and clr) I couldnt even get a response from the leaders(and they were up for a good couple minute) of the particular Shroud raids. Let them know I was offensively focused. They would rather sit and wait. See how much this means Turbine?

Was kinda nice logging my clr on to get a /t from the one "SHROUD?" and being able to tell him to go **** off.

Couldn't agree with you more. When I log on my cleric I get spammed with tells for Shroud groups. When I try to join one with my fighter the leader will say things like "we're only looking for barbarians as melee" Even after I tell them that I'm a Two Weapon DPS fighter they still say "Sorry barbarians DPS and HP is higher then even a Two Weapon Fighter's".

So yeah these groups would rather wait doing nothing if they have a chance to take a barbarian over a DPS built fighter who is ready to go.

Them actions speak strong words.... As I've said in the past it's not a huge huge issue right now but it will become a huge issue come mod 7 or mod 8 if something isn't done about it.

-D