Weekly Developer Activities: 3/24/08

[Tallyn]

Are you new to this game?
People are expressing their disapointment NOW while there is still time to change things, "complaining " after the fact means thats you're stuck with a useless ability, nay a dis-ability for at least another mod as it is not "considered gamebreaking" and will not be fixed mid-mod.

Oh remind me again how many smite evil max you get per rest? 10? So 10 smites with a Deathnip (yes I Have one too, it's being retired soon) and say 20% of that 10 are crits.
2 Smite Evils (MAYBE chainable w DS) on a 5x multipler Deathnip is what you're getting all excited about?

Take a look at a crafted khopesh vs deathnip while you're at it.

So you're happy with a terribly sub-par addition because you might get 2 fat crits?

Look at the contribution of Divine Sacrifice between shrines, add up the self inflicted HP dmg, SP used up and compare to to idk, Ram's Might. Let us know what you conclude.

Perhaps you should re-read this thread and a few others.

History is repeating itself for paladins; this is preciesly the kind of situation we were hoping to avoid for Mod7.

P.S. Ppl are rightly comparing it to vicious because vicious is the most hated prefix in game and noone in their right mind uses it in DDO.

I've been playing since day 1 of headstart.

Ok, you're right to complain now and try to get it changed. What I am saying is that everyone is so overwhelmingly negative that it just seems like everyone is a bunch of whiners.

I would take this on a Paladin. I would use it. I have faith (oh you faithless Paladins! ) that there will be more to come.

[/SarcasmOn]

Devs please delete the Paladin class. It's clear that nothing will please these sissy whiners. We'd be better off without them anyways

[/SarcasmOff]

[ArkoHighStar]

I've been playing since day 1 of headstart.

Ok, you're right to complain now and try to get it changed. What I am saying is that everyone is so overwhelmingly negative that it just seems like everyone is a bunch of whiners.

I would take this on a Paladin. I would use it. I have faith (oh you faithless Paladins! ) that there will be more to come.

[/SarcasmOn]

Devs please delete the Paladin class. It's clear that nothing will please these sissy whiners. We'd be better off without them anyways

[/SarcasmOff]

no whiners simply complain that they don't like something, people with valid concerns state why, and often put up valid and often insightful alternatives. It has been shown time and time again, that the devs listen to criticism, and respond well especially if you offer something else. Most of the posters here are making valid statements and have concerns over the usefulness of these enhancements, especially in the context of Eladrins's comments about barb crit rage 2. Many have put up valid alternatives in the way of spells and enhancements, that even have pnp source material to back it up.

[Turial]

Given the preceding statement, does this imply that Barb's Crit Rage enhancements will be nerfed? He DID say "at the power level that Barbarian Improved Critical is currently at." Or does that imply that they won't be doing anything with that grossly over-powered enhancement and that all future enhancements will simply pale in comparison to Barb's critical rage enhancements? If it won't be changed, why not? They got rid of fighter's dodge, nerfed Palli auras...why so much hesitation to nerf something that I dare say is universally accepted as being grossly over powered?

My bet would be if any adjustment were to happen, not to likely to happen, but if it did then turbine would likely do it during development of the barbarian PrC enhancments.

[Heladron]

I'd like my Paladin a lot more if he would excel at the high level content instead of just be so-so.

I have regrets about my Paladin because I've dumped a tome into just about every stat, put the best equipment I could find or afford on him, took all the save and AC enhancements and still can't break the 50AC barrier yet. Some +5 MFP might get him close.

I thought I'd have this really cool Paladin since he was my first 32 point build, but the truth of the matter is he was only excellent at all the low to mid-level quests. Now that he's at 16th level it's just kind of disappointing that I put so much work and thought into him and he's just mediocre.

The only redeeming quality my Paladin has at this time is that there aren't any beholders that he can't go toe-to-toe with. Unfortunately there is a limited demand for beholder bashers when FoD'ing them takes far less time.

[gpk]

I've been playing since day 1 of headstart.

Ok, you're right to complain now and try to get it changed. What I am saying is that everyone is so overwhelmingly negative that it just seems like everyone is a bunch of whiners.

I would take this on a Paladin. I would use it. I have faith (oh you faithless Paladins! ) that there will be more to come.

[/SarcasmOn]

Devs please delete the Paladin class. It's clear that nothing will please these sissy whiners. We'd be better off without them anyways

[/SarcasmOff]

Well how do you expect the paladin fans to react? The class has been nerfed (I have no problem with justifed nerfs) so often and neglected over and over for soon to be a year and given **** instead of something good that they're understandably skeptical. Furthermore we keep being promised "mod 7 is the pally love mod for sure!" and this is what's announced; Divine Sacrifice and Smites. Whether you view the glass as Half-full of or half-empty, the AP reduction for auras is rectifying old neglect, one wonders why it could't have come at ANY point over the last year.

After all this time how do you expect pallies to express their disapointment without being labeled "whiners" by the fanbois?

We need to stop getting love in the form of Angelskin, butchered Holy Sword ,Divine Sacrifices and Smite Evil tweakage and we need to start getting love as useful spells and divine abilities like Silverbeard, Righteous fury, Righteous Aura and Divine Might.

The "faith in more to come" has lasted for about a year now, and right now we still have nothing we can sink our teeth into.

If you like I can break down the timeline of events for you again and put things in perspective and their proper context starting with mod3.

[Tallyn]

no whiners simply complain that they don't like something, people with valid concerns state why, and often put up valid and often insightful alternatives. It has been shown time and time again, that the devs listen to criticism, and respond well especially if you offer something else. Most of the posters here are making valid statements and have concerns over the usefulness of these enhancements, especially in the context of Eladrins's comments about barb crit rage 2. Many have put up valid alternatives in the way of spells and enhancements, that even have pnp source material to back it up.

I don't deny that the people that are coming up with constructive, well thought out feedback are definitely helping. It's the people that have the super negative emo "Oh look, the new Paladin changes suck, I am going to slit my wrists" attitude that really is grating on me.

They have admitted they made a mistake with Barbarian Critical Rage. They are slowly implementing things to help out the Paladin class. They want to be cautious, to avoid any snafus like the previous one.

I remain very positive about the direction of the changes, if not the actual changes themselves. I like the look of some of the new enhancements, and may roll up a new Paladin to give them a go. (I had an old evasion Paladin, but due to poor planning and templating he was kind of gimpy, so I rerolled)

I really liked some of the spells that someone posted up. I really liked Silverbeard, I think Righteous Fury is good, but the duration would probably need to be lowered considerably, not sure sure about how useful I would consider Righteous Aura. I LOVE Divine Might for Paladins in pen and paper, and would love to see it here.

[Tallyn]

We need to stop getting love in the form of Angelskin, butchered Holy Sword ,Divine Sacrifices and Smite Evil tweakage and we need to start getting love as useful spells and divine abilities like Silverbeard, Righteous fury, Righteous Aura and Divine Might.

I think you're wrong here.

Yes Paladins need more tweaking.

BUT, I like the fact that they added Angelskin, Holy Sword and Divine Sacrific and tweaked the AP on their Auras.

I would like to see Divine Might, Silverbeard in the game. I would also like to see Righteous Aura and Righteous Fury, although with some tweaking.

I would like to see the different Paladin faith based religious choices also have more of an impact on the style of Paladin.

And I still am hoping for more changes to come.

[gpk]

I don't deny that the people that are coming up with constructive, well thought out feedback are definitely helping. It's the people that have the super negative emo "Oh look, the new Paladin changes suck, I am going to slit my wrists" attitude that really is grating on me.

They have admitted they made a mistake with Barbarian Critical Rage. They are slowly implementing things to help out the Paladin class. They want to be cautious, to avoid any snafus like the previous one.

I remain very positive about the direction of the changes, if not the actual changes themselves. I like the look of some of the new enhancements, and may roll up a new Paladin to give them a go. (I had an old evasion Paladin, but due to poor planning and templating he was kind of gimpy, so I rerolled)

I really liked some of the spells that someone posted up. I really liked Silverbeard, I think Righteous Fury is good, but the duration would probably need to be lowered considerably, not sure sure about how useful I would consider Righteous Aura. I LOVE Divine Might for Paladins in pen and paper, and would love to see it here.

Righteous Fury in pnp is 1 minute/level.

I don't think you grasp the gravity of the situation; this is supposed to tbe the do-or-die mod for paladins, pallies have been on the back burner far too long now and cannot affor to be pushed back. Again, mod 7 is supposed to be THE Pally Love Mod.

Noone is asking BBN Crit Rage 2 power "love", but is it fair to give lesser quality love to the more needy paladins than what the less needy Rangers got in Mod6?

Look at the decisions throughout the last ~year:

Angelskin -> shoulda been: Silverbeard (wouldn't really have mattered much anyways in AC irrelevent mods, but still beats Angelskin)

Holy Sword (in all it's incarnations) and fancy Smite Evil tweaks -> shoulda been :Righteous Might and Righteous Aura

Divine Sacrifice -> should be: Divine Might (or heck, even Divine Shield if the intent is to make paladins excel at defense).

See how some very simple choices could have resulted in useful class spells for the same amount of work ?

It's not too late hopefully, what people are worried about is they put all their eggs in the "divine sacrifice/smite evil" basket rather than the "easy to add useful spells that every pally will love yet not overpowering" basket.

[gpk]

I think you're wrong here.

Yes Paladins need more tweaking.

BUT, I like the fact that they added Angelskin, Holy Sword and Divine Sacrific and tweaked the AP on their Auras.

I would like to see Divine Might, Silverbeard in the game. I would also like to see Righteous Aura and Righteous Fury, although with some tweaking.

I would like to see the different Paladin faith based religious choices also have more of an impact on the style of Paladin.

And I still am hoping for more changes to come.

Assuming there is a finite amount of resources to add/modify anything, what would your choices be from the available pool of 8:

-Silverbeard (pnp version)
-Rigtheous Aura (pnp version -kaboom)
-Righteous Fury (pnp version)
-Divine Might (pnp version except for duration)
-Angelskin (pnp version)
-Holy Sword (NOT pnp version, obsolete in every incarnation)
-Divine Sacrifice (pnp version, except for +1 Crit, NOTE: Many more mobs with much MUCH more HP in DDO )
-Smite Evil fancy tweaks (non-pnp)

So which 4 would you pick?

And why woul you tweak R.Fury and R.Aura, they are the pnp version of the spells (most classes get stronger than pnp versions of spells)

[Sertrynus]

I would take this on a Paladin. I would use it. I have faith (oh you faithless Paladins! ) that there will be more to come.

[/SarcasmOn]

Devs please delete the Paladin class. It's clear that nothing will please these sissy whiners. We'd be better off without them anyways

[/SarcasmOff]

Gee thanks Tallyn, nice to see ur true feelings for the Paladin class.............................yeh yeh I'm kidding :P

GPK - Like you I've been playing a Paladin for a long time (2 weeks after launch), my pally is a Pure Level 16 Human Pally, of all the so called Gimped Paladins I think i've got all the aspects covered ie. Human 28pt Pure Paladin. I agree that the Paladin class as a whole has been missing out on a lot of attention that other classes seem to get. There are quite a lot of good suggestions that can improve the paladin class, but ultimately any "love" that the paladin class recieves will depend on what the Devs decide the way they want te Paladin class to go.

It would be really awesome if the Devs could post some sort of outline of what is planned, but I fear that given that Mod 7 nearly in QA (based on Quarion's Sig) that what we have recieved is pretty much what we are getting.

The AP point reduction is welcome, and Divine Sacrifice might be nice at higher levels, but as Monks are coming for Mod 7, there probably wasn't a lot of Dev Time available for the so call Rogue and Paladin "love".

[Bronko]

Weekly Development Activities

The following are items which are in development or QA testing for release in Module 7.

New Enhancements[LIST]
[*]NEW Paladin Divine Sacrifice I

• Prereq: Paladin level 4, Paladin Extra Smiting I, 11 Action Points spent
• Cost: 1 Action Point
• Benefit: Giving up some of your life force to win the battle, you empower your next blow against your foe. This attack deals an additional 5d6 Good damage to evil opponents and increases the critical multiplier of your weapon by 1, but costs you 10 hp and 1 sp, whether or not the attack is successful.". (6 second cooldown.)

Wow, now we're really getting somewhere with a this Pally love!

However, in order to make Divine Sacrifice usable you need to address the same underlaying issues that exist with Smite Evil in the first place. Smite Evil (and any new derivatives) need to work on a "do X for Y seconds" effect with a balanced cool down timer. This would parallel it to a Ranger's Manyshot or even a Barbarian's Rage.

I know this suggestion has been made before, and I don't want the Devs to think I'm not absolutely thrilled by the Pally love they have been showing us with the proposed changes/additions to the Paladin enhancement lines, but if changes are being made then let's try and future-proof them a little bit and fix everything we can at the same time.

BTW, everything else sounds/looks great. I am getting really psyched about Mod 7!!!!

[Tallyn]

Assuming there is a finite amount of resources to add/modify anything, what would your choices be from the available pool of 8:

-Silverbeard (pnp version)
-Rigtheous Aura (pnp version -kaboom)
-Righteous Fury (pnp version)
-Divine Might (pnp version except for duration)
-Angelskin (pnp version)
-Holy Sword (NOT pnp version, obsolete in every incarnation)
-Divine Sacrifice (pnp version, except for +1 Crit, NOTE: Many more mobs with much MUCH more HP in DDO )
-Smite Evil fancy tweaks (non-pnp)

So which 4 would you pick?

And why woul you tweak R.Fury and R.Aura, they are the pnp version of the spells (most classes get stronger than pnp versions of spells)

Why can't we have all of them?

From a pure power gamer's standpoint I probably would want:
Silverbeard (although the name makes it sound like it should be Dwarf only)
Divine Might
Righteous Fury
Angelskin or Divine Sacrifice (tweaked to adjust for DDO's inflated mob hp)

[Sertrynus]

Assuming there is a finite amount of resources to add/modify anything, what would your choices be from the available pool of 8:

-Silverbeard (pnp version)
-Rigtheous Aura (pnp version -kaboom)
-Righteous Fury (pnp version)
-Divine Might (pnp version except for duration)
-Angelskin (pnp version)
-Holy Sword (NOT pnp version, obsolete in every incarnation)
-Divine Sacrifice (pnp version, except for +1 Crit, NOTE: Many more mobs with much MUCH more HP in DDO )
-Smite Evil fancy tweaks (non-pnp)

So which 4 would you pick?

And why woul you tweak R.Fury and R.Aura, they are the pnp version of the spells (most classes get stronger than pnp versions of spells)

If I had to pick 4 I'd go with Silverbeard, Righteous Aura, Righteous Fury, and Divine Might.

I think the Smite Evil tweaks should be done regardless

[gpk]

[...]
I agree that the Paladin class as a whole has been missing out on a lot of attention that other classes seem to get. There are quite a lot of good suggestions that can improve the paladin class, but ultimately any "love" that the paladin class recieves will depend on what the Devs decide the way they want te Paladin class to go.

That's the problem they've received tons of good suggestions over time and yes ultimately it's a dev decision, however I feel if the decision was to focus on Smites and Divine Sacrifices then the wrong decision was made.

It would be really awesome if the Devs could post some sort of outline of what is planned, but I fear that given that Mod 7 nearly in QA (based on Quarion's Sig) that what we have recieved is pretty much what we are getting.

Yes the fear that mod7 is feature-locked is exactly what's worrying me and others I'm sure. This is a big concern.

The AP point reduction is welcome, and Divine Sacrifice might be nice at higher levels, but as Monks are coming for Mod 7, there probably wasn't a lot of Dev Time available for the so call Rogue and Paladin "love".

I don't see Divine Sacrifice being of any use unless it's boosted to appropriate DDO levels, that is to say damage dealt/dmg taken ratio is significantly boosted; the +1 crit modifier doesn't begin to cover the difference between DDO mobs and pnp mobs.


The mistakes of the past seems to be repeating itself once more in a couple of different way ,from what we know now. Unless the devs fill us in , there is a valid reason to be worried about the state of pallies in mod7.

Edit: LOL Power gamer and Paladin do not go hand-in-hand

[MysticTheurge]

I think Divine Sacrifice has one drawback too many. I think you should either:

A) Reduce the HP cost to 5 HP,
B) Eliminate the SP cost, or
C) Eliminate the Cooldown (i.e. reduce it to the 1 second cooldown for all abilities).

Potentially, you should even do two of the above (either A and B or B and C).

You've essentially just got too many "controls" on this ability. With a cooldown, there's less of a need for an HP cost. With an HP cost, there's less of a need for a cooldown.

In addition, this is an important distinction. Does divine sacrifice drain HP and SP even if no attack roll is generated? I can understand if there's an attack roll, but the attack misses. But if no attack roll is generated, the damage should not be taken by the paladin. The wording "whether or not the attack is successful" could mean "whether or not there is an attack roll and whether or not the attack hits" or it could simply mean "whether or not the attack hits but not if there is no attack." I very strongly believe it should be the latter.

Ideally, I'd also like to see this not become another click-to-activate power. Is there any way to code this as a stance, such that one of the attacks in the paladin's attack sequence (perhaps the first one, perhaps the one with the highest bonus) is affected by this enhancement, but the paladin doesn't have to constantly be activating an ability every six seconds?

[Aesop]

ok so the net reward over time is limited (if not non existant)... how about one of the following


tier 1:Clicky Boost: add 5d6 Holy damage to next smite evil and increased the critical mulitplier by 1 at a cost of 5hp

or

tier 1:clicky duration: all strikes for the next 15 sec do an additional 5d6 Holy damage and increase the crit multiplier by 1. Cooldown 1 min cost 10hp

or

tier 1: toggle: all smite evils do an additional 5d6 Holy Damage and Increase the crit multiplier by 1. Each smite so affected costs 5hp

I think the cost of 1 AP may be a little low for any of these but someone else can do the math.

I would also like Smite evil to be changed a touch. I personally would like it to be brought back closer to pnp in one aspect and further away in another. Damage wise scale it back to Paladin level extra damage (with enhancments to increase this by 5 in 4tiers 20 max bonus by level 18) but change it from a use per day to a cooldown of 15-20 sec unlimited use.


I don't know what yu guys may think about this but hey its what I'd like to see I think

Aesop

[binnsr]

Ideally, I'd also like to see this not become another click-to-activate power. Is there any way to code this as a stance, such that one of the attacks in the paladin's attack sequence (perhaps the first one, perhaps the one with the highest bonus) is affected by this enhancement, but the paladin doesn't have to constantly be activating an ability every six seconds?

One of the big draws to this game's combat system is that it wasn't based on click-to-activate features that turn combat in to a boring click 1, 2, and 3 and come back in 5 minutes when the cooldowns are done.

[Sertrynus]

tier 1:clicky duration: all strikes for the next 15 sec do an additional 5d6 Holy damage and increase the crit multiplier by 1. Cooldown 1 min cost 10hp

I know you meant this for Divine Sacrifice, but this sort of idea would be good for Smite Evil, activate it and for a 15sec burst you get the smite evil effect, if you manage to land 5 hits in 15 seconds they are ALL Smite Evils, that would help with the DPS side of paladins

[ArkoHighStar]

I know you meant this for Divine Sacrifice, but this sort of idea would be good for Smite Evil, activate it and for a 15sec burst you get the smite evil effect, if you manage to land 5 hits in 15 seconds they are ALL Smite Evils, that would help with the DPS side of paladins

and how about enhancements to extend these effects, kind of like barbarian extended rage

[khonda]

Man you guys are a bunch of negative people.

This is not finished. We still have at LEAST one month, more likely two until mod 7. They are working on/testing out Paladin stuff. I am absolutely certain that there will be more to come.

Reducing the cost of overpriced enhancements is not love, it is the removal of a penalty? This statement COMPLETELY reeks of glass half empty/glass half full mentality. You are looking on the negative side, saying "Oh, it should have been that way all along." Other people will be happy that they will have more Action Points to spend on other things.

Because it was listed as Divine Sacrifice I, I think (and hope) that there will be better higher level versions. The one thing I am WANTING a lot, is for somehow to use Divine Sacrifice AND Smite Evil at the same time. Would love to be able to critical hit with a Deathnip for scads of damage

Oh about about your Vicious comment. If you swing with a weapon 5 times in one round with a vicious weapon you will do 5d6 damage to yourself while doing an average of 10d6 to your opponent. 17.5 damage done to self/35 to opponent for a 1:2 ratio. Using Divine Sacrifice you will spend 10 HP and 1 SP while doing an 5d6 good damage to your opponent with the chance that if you crit you will get a +1 to the multiplier. So 10 HP done to self/17.5 average done to opponent, with a chance for quite a bit more. Ratio of 1:1.75. So yes vicious is a little better on damage, but I like Divine Sacrifice much more (and don't want to take the constant damage from vicious). Also, vicious on a weapon gets rid of the possibility of another good prefix (i.e. Holy, Holy Burst, Elemental Burst, etc.).

What I am HOPING they will do, is allow Divine Sacrifice to make the attack with the weapon considered a good source. That would be nice in my opinion. Also waiting to see what potentially higher levels of divine sacrifice will do.

Anyways if you hate your Paladin so much then delete him (not serious here, please don't delete your paladin unless you do truly hate him). I for one still like the class and think that the future has brightened up for them, at least a little

So posting my concerns over these enhancements makes me a negative person? And here I was stating that I didn't want to write my other post, because I don't post often even on things I feel were not good decisions, because I do respect the devs and feel they do a great job, and look like a big complainer. I guess I just can't win

I agree with gpk, many who play Paladins have been waiting a long time for a balance pass, and what I feel what we've been shown so far has been a let down.