Weekly Developer Activities: 3/24/08

[Geonis]

I have seen a few posts in this thread saying "Why are you complainging, you're getting something!"


Well, if we don't complain now, then we will get exactly what is posted here, and frankly, it's not enough!!!!!!


That being said, I like the form of Divine Sacrifice, but:

1-Will we be able to work it into an attack chain?

-Smite used to be able to be done this way, but at some point it was made into a seperate attack, and has become worthless because of this.

2-The (damage to self/self HPs) versus (damage to enemy/enemy HPs) is ridiculous!!!!

-10 HPs will be about 3% of an average 16 Paladins total HPs. 5d6 (average 17.5) will be about .25% of an average enemy's HPs. So, that leaves praying for a crit, which is ridiculous!!!!!!

3-Will there be further enhancements, such as Divine Sacrifice II?

-If this is true, then I would suggest reducing the damage taken, while also increasing the damage output. The damage output could be more base damage, higher multiplier, and/or higher threat.

-If this is not true, then you need to figure out something else, becausse this isn't cutting it alone.

4-Will there be the ability to Smite while doing this?

-In PnP, you can bet your ass that if it came to a baddy that needed to be taken down so bad, that the Pally was sacrificing HPs to do it, they would be Smiting too......

[gpk]

You're not likely to see any new enhancements at the power level that Barbarian Improved Critical is currently at. There are some interesting synergies out there between certain item enchantments and other Paladin abilities with Divine Sacrifice. (Such as Bodyfeeder, noted earlier in the thread, or the Virtue spell.)

Are we even going to see anything at the power level of Ram's might?

As far as synergies are concerned, are you factoring in the SP cost of virtue, the time it takes to cast it vs lost swings casting it (with chance of interruption->wasted SP,lost swings).

And bodyfeeder, is it smart to use a more than likely lower DPS weapon (and lower AC weapon vs shroud crafted weapon, if AC is relevent) to try to gain back some temporary HP that I'm expending trying to add a tiny bit of damage to my swings? Isn't the point to come out ahead?

This is just off the top of my head, but it seems to me in nearly all scenarios you'd actually end up doing LESS damage to the mob, using more spell points taking more self inflicted and taking more mob inflicted damage as said mob is alive longer due to lower dps. So you're actually lower your (and your party's) efficiency.

The only way I can see Divine Sacrifice being of any use is if it as adjusted to DDO levels, that is to say either boost the damage output a LOT or reduce the self inflicted damage to 1 hit point per usage.

Right now Ram's Might seems to be ~2.5 more times more efficient in damage over 2 minutes; I'm not even factoring the SP cost (~160 vs 10 over 16 minutes), self inflicted damage (200 over 2 minutes) cost or missing swings due to low rolls or twitchy mobs.

Am I just not getting it? Is there a lot more we just don't know about yet?

[Strykersz]

Am I just not getting it? Is there a lot more we just don't know about yet?

Just imagine how much longer you'll last when things go pear shaped if you aren't even *invited* to join the group!

[Bunker]

NEW The following potions are now equipped with funnels so they can be used on afflicted friends: Potion of Fear Removal, Potion of Poison Neutralization, Potion of Blindness Removal, Potion of Curse Removal, Potion of Disease Removal, Woodblossom Mead, and Crimson Nightshade Infusion. The new funnels are especially easy to use so raging barbarians should have no problems with them.

I am to assume that this addition will be used just like lessor restoration potion now. If this is true, then there needs to be yet more improvement. You have been able to allow use of these potions during barbarian rage, but what about MADSTONE RAGE? If you are to make potions more the "self only", then make two types or allow them to be used in the same fashion as healing potions also with the same cooldown timer.

I will be researching awaiting an answer. /thx

[TechNoFear]

NEW Paladin Divine Sacrifice I
o Prereq: Paladin level 4, Paladin Extra Smiting I, 11 Action Points spent
o Cost: 1 Action Point
o Benefit: Giving up some of your life force to win the battle, you empower your next blow against your foe. This attack deals an additional 5d6 Good damage to evil opponents and increases the critical multiplier of your weapon by 1, but costs you 10 hp and 1 sp, whether or not the attack is successful.". (6 second cooldown.)

Hmmmm….

An extra 20-40 HP per use for 6 SP.....

I wonder if.......

Will this have additional levels (II and III)?
Can the 10 HP damage taken be reduced by DR (a use for Angel Skin)?
Will the cost be paid when activated or when the attack is rolled (still damage me if the target moves / dies)?

[Dylos_Moon]

[*]NEW Rogue Wrack Construct I

• Prereq: Rogue level 3, Rogue Disable Device I, 7 Action Points Spent
• Cost: 1 Action Point
• Benefit: You can activate this ability to use your understanding of mechanical objects and their vulnerabilities to strike at critical points in a construct's anatomy, dealing an extra 1d6 damage to constructs or living constructs. (8 second cooldown.)

[*]NEW Rogue Wrack Construct II

• Prereq: Rogue level 7, Rogue Disable Device II, Rogue Wrack Construct I, 22 Action Points Spent
• Cost: 2 Action Points
• Benefit: You can activate this ability to use your understanding of mechanical objects and their vulnerabilities to strike at critical points in a construct's anatomy, dealing an extra 3d6 damage to constructs or living constructs.

[*]NEW Rogue Wrack Construct III

• Prereq: Rogue level 11, Rogue Disable Device III, Rogue Wrack Construct II, 37 Action Points Spent
• Cost: 3 Action Points
• Benefit: You can activate this ability to use your understanding of mechanical objects and their vulnerabilities to strike at critical points in a construct's anatomy, dealing an extra 5d6 damage to constructs or living constructs.

Note: Final values on all of these enhancements are still subject to change based on play-testing.[/LIST]General Enhancement Changes

I agree that way of the mechanic should be listed in atleast tier 3 as a requirement replacement for disable 3, however there are a few other enhancements/feats that I believe should earn you the ability to use these abilities.

Least, Lesser, and Greater Dragonmark of Making
or
Warforged Mechanics I, II, and III

A character with the dragonmark of making knows how to heal a construct thru innate abilities, they should know how to "wrack" a construct as well, since much of their life was most likely spent studying constructs.

And of course, a warforged who knows how to repair his own body, and the bodies of fellow 'forged should also know how to disable constructs.

[emsteiner]

"NEW There are now 20 shortcut bars available, for those who carry too many clickies/weapons/spells to fit on 10. Those of you who had previously used the unsupported methods of accessing bars 11-20 will be happy to know that they now will remember where you put them on the screen."

Now I need a bigger monitor

[stockwizard5]

What we have here DOES NOT HELP the Paladin problem! Let me repeat - NOT HELPING!

The WDAs benefits are MORE beneficial to multi builds than pure which is seriously the opposite of what we need.

RULE 1 for PALLY LOVE: MUST BENEFIT PALLY 12-16 (period).
RULE 2 for PALLY LOVE: MUST ESTABLISH A ROLE/ROLES for PALADINS TO SHINE!

The litmus test is does this benefit a 12+ pure more than an 11/X Multi - if the answer is no then there is NO LOVE.


PS: Two Thumbs Up on 20 hotbars - in fact considering growing a 3rd arm for a full 3 Thumbs Up!

[juniorpfactors]

What we have here DOES NOT HELP the Paladin problem! Let me repeat - NOT HELPING!

The WDAs benefits are MORE beneficial to multi builds than pure which is seriously the opposite of what we need.

RULE 1 for PALLY LOVE: MUST BENEFIT PALLY 12-16 (period).
RULE 2 for PALLY LOVE: MUST ESTABLISH A ROLE/ROLES for PALADINS TO SHINE!

The litmus test is does this benefit a 12+ pure more than an 11/X Multi - if the answer is no then there is NO LOVE.


PS: Two Thumbs Up on 20 hotbars - in fact considering growing a 3rd arm for a full 3 Thumbs Up!

maels....20 hotbars...how you gonna see the enemy

[Mad_Bombardier]

Ohhhh! Nice...

Now, If only the Cryptmoss Silk Sutures...recieved on collectable turn in...worked as the description says...and worked on anyone but self...

<sigh> This one bugged for a looooong time...Only I care.

Those and the Spore Saps ROCK! CL10 healing potions, ftw! Sadly, the collectables that give you cryptmoss are so few and far between it's not worth bothering. I collected all my cryptmoss from leveling 6 characters and turned it in collectively. I got 11 Cryptmoss Sutures. Spore Saps are fairly reliable as mushroom collectables are much more common and appear in the House quests as well.

Maybe once the funnel tech is working for other potions (it's still broken for Lesser Restoration and Remove Paralysis), we'll get it applied to Cure pots, too?

[stockwizard5]

maels....20 hotbars...how you gonna see the enemy

Its all about "tabbing" through the focus Orb bro - direct view is so yesterday

[khonda]

Divine Sacrifice is a dramatically underwhelming enhancement.

One swing every 6 seconds for an additional 5d6 damage and +1 crit multiplier, at the cost of 10 health is just not worth it. I can use a viscious weapon to nearly the same effect (no crit bonus, but better added damage to taken damage ratio). In terms of DPS, a viscious is better, you get the effect ever swing, rather than 1 per 6 seconds.

Make this enhancement and Smite Evil a 3 second cooldown instead of 6 and they might be worth using. I can spam lay on hands against an undead guy in rapid succession, but I can't use smite evil at will? Oops, I shouldn't have mentioned Lay on Hands, hopefully they won't put that on a cooldown too.

The Paladin love listed so far is disappointing to say the least. Reducing the cost of overpriced enhancements is not love, it is removal of a penalty. The costs of the aura enhancements were staggering.

I'm hoping that additional levels of Divine Sacrifice will be listed for higher levels soon (which seems likely since the it is listed as Divine Sacrifice I, however, there are those "Way of" enhancements for rogue that don't go beyond I...) which might make playing a Paladin to high levels worthwhile. But so far, I'm not impressed.

It seems that the devs have gotten gunshy about adding enhancements after the introduction of Barb Crit Rage. They don't want to introduce another overpowered enhancement, but as a result, they are introducing underpowered enhancements instead.

I hate that I'm writing this post, since I think the devs have done a great job so far, and I've usually just not said anything when I feel they've made missteps in the past since they've always seemed to acknowledge and rectify important issues. When Mod 6 came out and the cap was increased, I debated whether to level my main char to level 16 Paladin. I decided to stay Paladin when I heard that Mod 7 was going to add Paladin benefits. So far, I'm seeing that I will get some action points back, and an enhancement of dubious effectiveness. I'm still giving the devs the benefit of the doubt and hoping that future WDAs for Mod 7 will introduce enhancements for high level Paladins, but I will say those doubts are growing.

[GhostNull]

Once again, here are some good PnP compliant spells that should be added:

Silverbeard:
Level 1 , 1 minute/level, self only
+2 Sacred AC bonus

Righteous Fury:
Level 3, 1 min/level, self only
+4 Sacred STR, +5 temp HP/caster level max 50

Righteous Aura:
Level 4, 1 min/level, self only
+4 Sacred CHA bonus (Pally bomb kaboom/heal on death can be replaced with whatever else that seems fair)


And here is a divine Feat that can be added as a split enhancement, duration non pnp-compliant to scale to DDO standards (NWN boosted duration too):

Divine Might, requires Power Attack, Turn Undead
Use a Turn Undead charge to add CHA modifier bonus divine damage for Charisma modifer rounds (6 seconds)
(boosted from 1 round fixed duration as other games like NWN have done)

So in DDO you can add it like :

Divine Might 1, min lev 8, 2 AP: add half your charisma modifier to damage for cha mod rounds
Divine Might 2, min lev 15, 4 AP: add your full charisma modifier to damage for cha mod rounds

If CHA mod is too strong then simply omit Righteous Aura scared CHA bonus so as to not boost Divine Might and have the damage only apply to evil mobs. If still too strong get rid of extra turn undead enhancements.

This is a feat-like enhancement that rewards pure high level paladins, makes good use of turn undeads, rewards paladins with a good charisma score.

This deserves a /sign

[Tallyn]

Divine Sacrifice is a dramatically underwhelming enhancement.

One swing every 6 seconds for an additional 5d6 damage and +1 crit multiplier, at the cost of 10 health is just not worth it. I can use a viscious weapon to nearly the same effect (no crit bonus, but better added damage to taken damage ratio). In terms of DPS, a viscious is better, you get the effect ever swing, rather than 1 per 6 seconds.

Make this enhancement and Smite Evil a 3 second cooldown instead of 6 and they might be worth using. I can spam lay on hands against an undead guy in rapid succession, but I can't use smite evil at will? Oops, I shouldn't have mentioned Lay on Hands, hopefully they won't put that on a cooldown too.

The Paladin love listed so far is disappointing to say the least. Reducing the cost of overpriced enhancements is not love, it is removal of a penalty. The costs of the aura enhancements were staggering.

I'm hoping that additional levels of Divine Sacrifice will be listed for higher levels soon (which seems likely since the it is listed as Divine Sacrifice I, however, there are those "Way of" enhancements for rogue that don't go beyond I...) which might make playing a Paladin to high levels worthwhile. But so far, I'm not impressed.

It seems that the devs have gotten gunshy about adding enhancements after the introduction of Barb Crit Rage. They don't want to introduce another overpowered enhancement, but as a result, they are introducing underpowered enhancements instead.

I hate that I'm writing this post, since I think the devs have done a great job so far, and I've usually just not said anything when I feel they've made missteps in the past since they've always seemed to acknowledge and rectify important issues. When Mod 6 came out and the cap was increased, I debated whether to level my main char to level 16 Paladin. I decided to stay Paladin when I heard that Mod 7 was going to add Paladin benefits. So far, I'm seeing that I will get some action points back, and an enhancement of dubious effectiveness. I'm still giving the devs the benefit of the doubt and hoping that future WDAs for Mod 7 will introduce enhancements for high level Paladins, but I will say those doubts are growing.

Man you guys are a bunch of negative people.

This is not finished. We still have at LEAST one month, more likely two until mod 7. They are working on/testing out Paladin stuff. I am absolutely certain that there will be more to come.

Reducing the cost of overpriced enhancements is not love, it is the removal of a penalty? This statement COMPLETELY reeks of glass half empty/glass half full mentality. You are looking on the negative side, saying "Oh, it should have been that way all along." Other people will be happy that they will have more Action Points to spend on other things.

Because it was listed as Divine Sacrifice I, I think (and hope) that there will be better higher level versions. The one thing I am WANTING a lot, is for somehow to use Divine Sacrifice AND Smite Evil at the same time. Would love to be able to critical hit with a Deathnip for scads of damage

Oh about about your Vicious comment. If you swing with a weapon 5 times in one round with a vicious weapon you will do 5d6 damage to yourself while doing an average of 10d6 to your opponent. 17.5 damage done to self/35 to opponent for a 1:2 ratio. Using Divine Sacrifice you will spend 10 HP and 1 SP while doing an 5d6 good damage to your opponent with the chance that if you crit you will get a +1 to the multiplier. So 10 HP done to self/17.5 average done to opponent, with a chance for quite a bit more. Ratio of 1:1.75. So yes vicious is a little better on damage, but I like Divine Sacrifice much more (and don't want to take the constant damage from vicious). Also, vicious on a weapon gets rid of the possibility of another good prefix (i.e. Holy, Holy Burst, Elemental Burst, etc.).

What I am HOPING they will do, is allow Divine Sacrifice to make the attack with the weapon considered a good source. That would be nice in my opinion. Also waiting to see what potentially higher levels of divine sacrifice will do.

Anyways if you hate your Paladin so much then delete him (not serious here, please don't delete your paladin unless you do truly hate him). I for one still like the class and think that the future has brightened up for them, at least a little

[ArkoHighStar]

Man you guys are a bunch of negative people.

This is not finished. We still have at LEAST one month, more likely two until mod 7. They are working on/testing out Paladin stuff. I am absolutely certain that there will be more to come.

Reducing the cost of overpriced enhancements is not love, it is the removal of a penalty? This statement COMPLETELY reeks of glass half empty/glass half full mentality. You are looking on the negative side, saying "Oh, it should have been that way all along." Other people will be happy that they will have more Action Points to spend on other things.

Because it was listed as Divine Sacrifice I, I think (and hope) that there will be better higher level versions. The one thing I am WANTING a lot, is for somehow to use Divine Sacrifice AND Smite Evil at the same time. Would love to be able to critical hit with a Deathnip for scads of damage

Oh about about your Vicious comment. If you swing with a weapon 5 times in one round with a vicious weapon you will do 5d6 damage to yourself while doing an average of 10d6 to your opponent. 17.5 damage done to self/35 to opponent for a 1:2 ratio. Using Divine Sacrifice you will spend 10 HP and 1 SP while doing an 5d6 good damage to your opponent with the chance that if you crit you will get a +1 to the multiplier. So 10 HP done to self/17.5 average done to opponent, with a chance for quite a bit more. Ratio of 1:1.75. So yes vicious is a little better on damage, but I like Divine Sacrifice much more (and don't want to take the constant damage from vicious). Also, vicious on a weapon gets rid of the possibility of another good prefix (i.e. Holy, Holy Burst, Elemental Burst, etc.).

What I am HOPING they will do, is allow Divine Sacrifice to make the attack with the weapon considered a good source. That would be nice in my opinion. Also waiting to see what potentially higher levels of divine sacrifice will do.

Anyways if you hate your Paladin so much then delete him (not serious here, please don't delete your paladin unless you do truly hate him). I for one still like the class and think that the future has brightened up for them, at least a little

are you factoring in that you can only use it once every 8 seconds

edit: and I did delete my paladin lvl 15 not because I hated him but because I needed room and given the current state of the class was the obvious choice

[Yvonne_Blacksword]

Those and the Spore Saps ROCK! CL10 healing potions, ftw! Sadly, the collectables that give you cryptmoss are so few and far between it's not worth bothering. I collected all my cryptmoss from leveling 6 characters and turned it in collectively. I got 11 Cryptmoss Sutures. Spore Saps are fairly reliable as mushroom collectables are much more common and appear in the House quests as well.

Maybe once the funnel tech is working for other potions (it's still broken for Lesser Restoration and Remove Paralysis), we'll get it applied to Cure pots, too?

I have been selling them...because they take up extra space..But they would be awesome if worked as described...And I would no longer carry heal/repair kits, rage clickies, bear's endurance and aid clickies...(heroism(gh)) and would spend all my time in quests with moss/larva...farming. Pleeeeezzzeee! can you make em work?

lol!

[creithne]

You're not likely to see any new enhancements at the power level that Barbarian Improved Critical is currently at. There are some interesting synergies out there between certain item enchantments and other Paladin abilities with Divine Sacrifice. (Such as Bodyfeeder, noted earlier in the thread, or the Virtue spell.)

Edit: And Mystic Theurge beats me to the comment, again.

Given the preceding statement, does this imply that Barb's Crit Rage enhancements will be nerfed? He DID say "at the power level that Barbarian Improved Critical is currently at." Or does that imply that they won't be doing anything with that grossly over-powered enhancement and that all future enhancements will simply pale in comparison to Barb's critical rage enhancements? If it won't be changed, why not? They got rid of fighter's dodge, nerfed Palli auras...why so much hesitation to nerf something that I dare say is universally accepted as being grossly over powered?

[Tallyn]

The only thing I am begging of you, Eladrin, is for somehow to allow you to smite evil and use divine sacrifice at the same time

[gpk]

Man you guys are a bunch of negative people.

This is not finished. We still have at LEAST one month, more likely two until mod 7. They are working on/testing out Paladin stuff. I am absolutely certain that there will be more to come.

Reducing the cost of overpriced enhancements is not love, it is the removal of a penalty? This statement COMPLETELY reeks of glass half empty/glass half full mentality. You are looking on the negative side, saying "Oh, it should have been that way all along." Other people will be happy that they will have more Action Points to spend on other things.

Because it was listed as Divine Sacrifice I, I think (and hope) that there will be better higher level versions. The one thing I am WANTING a lot, is for somehow to use Divine Sacrifice AND Smite Evil at the same time. Would love to be able to critical hit with a Deathnip for scads of damage

Oh about about your Vicious comment. If you swing with a weapon 5 times in one round with a vicious weapon you will do 5d6 damage to yourself while doing an average of 10d6 to your opponent. 17.5 damage done to self/35 to opponent for a 1:2 ratio. Using Divine Sacrifice you will spend 10 HP and 1 SP while doing an 5d6 good damage to your opponent with the chance that if you crit you will get a +1 to the multiplier. So 10 HP done to self/17.5 average done to opponent, with a chance for quite a bit more. Ratio of 1:1.75. So yes vicious is a little better on damage, but I like Divine Sacrifice much more (and don't want to take the constant damage from vicious). Also, vicious on a weapon gets rid of the possibility of another good prefix (i.e. Holy, Holy Burst, Elemental Burst, etc.).

What I am HOPING they will do, is allow Divine Sacrifice to make the attack with the weapon considered a good source. That would be nice in my opinion. Also waiting to see what potentially higher levels of divine sacrifice will do.

Anyways if you hate your Paladin so much then delete him (not serious here, please don't delete your paladin unless you do truly hate him). I for one still like the class and think that the future has brightened up for them, at least a little

Are you new to this game?
People are expressing their disapointment NOW while there is still time to change things, "complaining " after the fact means thats you're stuck with a useless ability, nay a dis-ability for at least another mod as it is not "considered gamebreaking" and will not be fixed mid-mod.

Oh remind me again how many smite evil max you get per rest? 10? So 10 smites with a Deathnip (yes I Have one too, it's being retired soon) and say 20&#37; of that 10 are crits.
2 Smite Evils (MAYBE chainable w DS) on a 5x multipler Deathnip is what you're getting all excited about?

Take a look at a crafted khopesh vs deathnip while you're at it.

So you're happy with a terribly sub-par addition because you might get 2 fat crits?

Look at the contribution of Divine Sacrifice between shrines, add up the self inflicted HP dmg, SP used up and compare to to idk, Ram's Might. Let us know what you conclude.

Perhaps you should re-read this thread and a few others.

History is repeating itself for paladins; this is preciesly the kind of situation we were hoping to avoid for Mod7.

P.S. Ppl are rightly comparing it to vicious because vicious is the most hated prefix in game and noone in their right mind uses it in DDO.

[Angelus_dead]

The only thing I am begging of you, Eladrin, is for somehow to allow you to smite evil and use divine sacrifice at the same time

According to the WDA announcement, you can use them both at once.
That might be an error, but that's how it is written.