How about 1 more level 1 and level 2 spell for arcanes?

[Makdar]

Just thinking it might be time to revive this discussion.

Sorcs are suppose to get 5 level 1 and level 2 spells according to DnD rules. So I was thinking maybe by adding an additional level 1 and level 2 spell slot for both wizards and sorcerers would be balanced.

I have both a high level wizard and high level sorcerer in addition to various high level melee types. Adding an extra level 1 and level 2 spell slot wouldn't change PvP much because those kind of spells aren't used much in PvP.

My thinking is that it's not outside the DnD ruleset and would make things more fun.

What do others think about this?

[Aspenor]

It's been brought up before, with no formal responses.

In hindsight I don't really think it would be that big a deal to add them, but I'm also not sure how Turbine feels about what this would do to the balance between the classes.

[Makdar]

It's been brought up before, with no formal responses.

In hindsight I don't really think it would be that big a deal to add them, but I'm also not sure how Turbine feels about what this would do to the balance between the classes.

Yep. I've even been one of people that's brought it up before. Hence my statement, "It's time to revive the discussion."

I agree that it doesn't seem like much of a big deal. Class balance is most likely the key issue. I suppose there's a content balance issue as well. I wouldn't think it's development time or being in-line with DnD rules. (DnD rules say Sorcs get 5 level 1 and level 2 spells.)

With class balance, there's balance between wizards and sorcs. And there's balance between arcanes and melees.

For wizards and sorcs, adding the extra spell slot for both classes pretty much keeps them balanced. Sorcs still have many difficult spell decisions to make at level 4-8 and eventually 9.

For arcanes and melees, I don't see how it changes PvP much as level 1 and level 2 spells aren't going to be used much there and if PvP is important to you, then you'll probably have the level 1 and level 2 spells that matter for it mem'd already. As for the overall balance, giving more to arcanes when melees lag behind significantly in power at high levels seems wrong, but adding an extra spell slot for level 1 and level 2 spells isn't going to break things more. Melees would need to be brought up via more powerful enhancements, items, armor and weapons in order to bring melees more inline with arcanes.

So that leaves content balance. Hard for me to say, but I don't right off see how giving one more spell slot for level 1 and level 2 spells would cause a big content balance issue. Of course, maybe I don't see the big picture.

I'd love to hear a dev perspective on it, even if it's the nada kind.

[Razvan]

For wizards and sorcs, adding the extra spell slot for both classes pretty much keeps them balanced. Sorcs still have many difficult spell decisions to make at level 4-8 and eventually 9.

No difficulty for level 8 spells: they all suck!

[Makdar]

No difficulty for level 8 spells: they all suck!

Ahh well. Any chance for a dev response to this thread may have just gone down the tubes.

The therory is that when greater/superior potency VIII items start dropping that level 8 spells will be much more desirable.

[Amaras]

In all honesty, do you really need them? Most level 1 and 2 spells are limited to a few "good" selections.

[JFeenstra]

No difficulty for level 8 spells: they all suck!

polar ray and summon 8 are about the only choices for a sorc
mass charm gets added for wizards...no idea why sorcs cant take that

[Alavatar]

Before this devolves into an "L8 spells suck" thread I would like to take a moment and agree with the OP.

Sorcerers are supposed to have a total of 5 L1 spells to choose from and a total of 5 L2 spells to choose from.

(Personally, I think that the spell selection lists should all be re-done. Sorcerers, Wizards, and Clerics should all have what is outlined in the SRD, Domains for Clerics should be implemented, and extra spell slots should be available to all non-spontaneous casters depending on their primary casting attribute)

[Vormaerin]

The reason for the reduced selection is that there are fewer spells in DDO than in D&D by a substantial margin. A sorceror getting 4 of 23 spells in DDO is better off than a sorceror getting 5 of 39 spells in D&D (and that's just including the PHB, not any of the multitude of other spell sources). A DDO sorceror has 1/6 of all the lvl 1 spells, while a p&p sorc has 1/8th.

[Invalid_86]

Until DDO actually starts using DnD spell slots we probably won't see much use at later levels for 1st level spells. Ditto for the balance for wizards and sorcerers.

[Makdar]

The reason for the reduced selection is that there are fewer spells in DDO than in D&D by a substantial margin. A sorceror getting 4 of 23 spells in DDO is better off than a sorceror getting 5 of 39 spells in D&D (and that's just including the PHB, not any of the multitude of other spell sources). A DDO sorceror has 1/6 of all the lvl 1 spells, while a p&p sorc has 1/8th.

Something seems wrong with this logic. So, if Turbine only implemented 6 spells per class level, then we would only have gotten 1 spell slot per level? Or maybe, if at some point Turbine implements a bunch of new spells, even ones that go beyond what's on the Player's Handbook to say, 100 available spells, the number of spell slots will be increased to 17 or 18 per level?

[Angelus_dead]

Something seems wrong with this logic. So, if Turbine only implemented 6 spells per class level, then we would only have gotten 1 spell slot per level?

No. The logic is "sorcs are supposed to be weaker than wizards because of fewer spell slots". But the problem arises DDO has less than 6 level 1 spells that you'd care about having. Therefore, fewer slots on the sorc.

[Joalin_the_Theurge]

In all honesty, considering that Sorcerers and Bards don't even have their class ability to learn "unique new spells through intensive study anytime they can gain a new spell of that level", are you really surprised that we don't get the correct amount of spell slots?

I honestly expect this game to change greatly to reflect 4.0 when it comes out, which will be cool because Magic Missile at 1st level is an AT WILL ability for Sorcs and Wizs and is 2d4 + Spell Casting Ability Mod. Only problem in translation will be with squares instead of feet measurements in 4.0.

[Vormaerin]

Uhhh, what are you talking about? Where does it say they have that ability? That's what wizards do.. intensive study. Bards and Sorcerors sort of fake it. Further, I would be beyond surprised if 4e had a significant impact on the core of this game. It is completely not compatible with 3e, so you are really looking at DDO2 before you see more than hints of 4e in this game.

[Joalin_the_Theurge]

Read your 3.5 Player's Handbook in the section on spells in the class listing for both Bards and Sorcerers.

Page 28 for Bards and Page 54 for Sorcerers:

"New spells can be common spells from the class spell list, or they can be unusual spells that the caster has gained some understanding of by study. For example, a caster with a scroll or spellbook detailing a spell not on their class list could select that spell as one of his new spells for attaining a new level, provided that it is of the right spell level. The caster can't use this method of spell acquistion to learn spells at a faster rate, however."

This also a class ability for Favored Souls, though I have misplaced my Complete Divine, so I can't quote you a page number for their reference.

[Thame]

Just thinking it might be time to revive this discussion.

Sorcs are suppose to get 5 level 1 and level 2 spells according to DnD rules. So I was thinking maybe by adding an additional level 1 and level 2 spell slot for both wizards and sorcerers would be balanced.

I have both a high level wizard and high level sorcerer in addition to various high level melee types. Adding an extra level 1 and level 2 spell slot wouldn't change PvP much because those kind of spells aren't used much in PvP.

What do others think about this?

What do you mean they would be balanced?
Sorcs are way over powered right now. 4 good spells is all you need for levels 1 and 2. And sorcs average about 600 more sp then wizards. Wizards are pretty much confined to be CC specialist because of lower mana numbers which is boring as hell I might add (cast web and sit back wait for fighters to kill mobs) while sorcs can jump in a quest finger and pk everything into oblivion and actually have fun.
Unbalanced my ass.......play a wizard sometime bud

[Wildseed]

What do you mean they would be balanced?
Sorcs are way over powered right now. 4 good spells is all you need for levels 1 and 2. And sorcs average about 600 more sp then wizards. Wizards are pretty much confined to be CC specialist because of lower mana numbers which is boring as hell I might add (cast web and sit back wait for fighters to kill mobs) while sorcs can jump in a quest finger and pk everything into oblivion and actually have fun.
Unbalanced my ass.......play a wizard sometime bud

Dang if I play a CC wizard. I play how I wanna, and if I run outta mana, DVs can be my friend... and if they're not oh well that's what pots are for. Usually however I don't run outta mana except on end fights. My wizard has 1400ish sps and they may burn a little faster than my sorc's 2028 but if ya know how to use them it's all good. Only cc I do is ottos sphere, cause if they're not hitting the party the better it is. otherwise I finger and pk, however I do wish they'd eliminate the casting difference between sorcs and wizards. But yes, sorcs are way more appealing than wizards as it stands. when I solo, I use my sorc the ability to use heal scrolls and so on is too nice to give up.

[JFeenstra]

Dang if I play a CC wizard. I play how I wanna, and if I run outta mana, DVs can be my friend... and if they're not oh well that's what pots are for. Usually however I don't run outta mana except on end fights. My wizard has 1400ish sps and they may burn a little faster than my sorc's 2028 but if ya know how to use them it's all good. Only cc I do is ottos sphere, cause if they're not hitting the party the better it is. otherwise I finger and pk, however I do wish they'd eliminate the casting difference between sorcs and wizards. But yes, sorcs are way more appealing than wizards as it stands. when I solo, I use my sorc the ability to use heal scrolls and so on is too nice to give up.

sorc also has a much better primary stat for skills (UMD, Haggle, Bluff, Intimidate, Diplo) than wiz does

a 16th level sp capped wiz (skiver, +150sp item from shroud, 36 int) is still pushing to hit 2000sp, where a 16th level sp capped sorc is close to 2800

the only real difference is level 4+ spells, where the sorcs choices are more limited, and feats, as a sorc only gets 6

[Missing_Minds]

The reason for the reduced selection is that there are fewer spells in DDO than in D&D by a substantial margin. A sorceror getting 4 of 23 spells in DDO is better off than a sorceror getting 5 of 39 spells in D&D (and that's just including the PHB, not any of the multitude of other spell sources). A DDO sorceror has 1/6 of all the lvl 1 spells, while a p&p sorc has 1/8th.

Reduced selection? That was what the Devs told us at the start of the game. Are you honestly saying there hasn't been enough added to actually make the number of spells known for a sorc correct now? You can say yes if you want, I'll just disagree with you.

[Alavatar]

The reason for the reduced selection is that there are fewer spells in DDO than in D&D by a substantial margin. A sorceror getting 4 of 23 spells in DDO is better off than a sorceror getting 5 of 39 spells in D&D (and that's just including the PHB, not any of the multitude of other spell sources). A DDO sorceror has 1/6 of all the lvl 1 spells, while a p&p sorc has 1/8th.

Uh... in PnP, if a sorcerer has roughly 1/8th the spells (5/39), then a wizard should have roughly 1/10th (4/39) (not including bonus spells based on high ability scores). Therefore, according to PnP, a sorcerer should always have a larger spell selection at any given moment (for L1 and L2 spells). The beauty behind wizards is that they can change that spell selection virtually at any time. Sorcerers then have a tapered spell progression, i.e. they should cap L6 spells at qty. 3 and not raise it to 4 when the level cap is increased.

At L20 a sorcerer should have (5/5/4/4/4/3/3/3/3), but an L20 wizard would have (4/4/4/4/4/4/4/4/4); a few less L1 and L2 spells, but more L6-L9 spells. Also, a wizard should have more spells available through high INT (even with the implementation of the SP optional rules). At L20 (in DDO) a wizard should have around a 40 INT, which would make the final spell selection for a wizard (8/8/8/7/7/7/7/6/6), but the sorcerer would maintain the previously described progression. They would, however, have enough SP to be able to cast a (10/10/10/9/9/9/9/8/8) progression, which is a bit more then a wizard, though, due to how sorcerers are designed. That is, if Turbine had implemented this correctly.

The amount of spells available should have no bearing on the limitations of the spell selections of sorcerers, wizards, and clerics.