Mob To-Hit Bonus

[Kaldaka]

I know the AC threads have been discussed thoroughly in the last couple weeks, but I wanted to try and figure something out.

The problem is that the Mobs we face continue to have seemingly never-ending ever-increasing to-hit bonuses (say that three times fast ). But my question is, WHY DON'T WE???? A tanks to-hit bonus has not gone up much with the level cap increase from 14 to 16 (only +2 from BAB ). As it stands now: No +7 STR items, there isn't a fourth stackable rage clickie , +5 is still the highest weapon bonus (there is righteousness, but that was available at level 14), no +4 tomes dropping outta the raids, the only non-BAB increase might be from the +1 stat increase at 16 (but that makes most tanks STR odd ). So why exactly do Mobs not follow in this same logic???

As stated by Bor in an earlier thread, the mobs seem to be adding +20 to their to-hit rolls in MOD 6, to me that just seems utterly rediculous.

[Kamboe]

See how we are beating these quest? If we got the same to-hit bonus the mobs did, we would pwn these quest w/o anyone taking a scratch...

When we beat down the new raid 5 days after it comes out, I'd say they are perfect with the to-hit system atm

[Kaldaka]

If we got the same to-hit bonus the mobs did, we would pwn these quest w/o anyone taking a scratch...

Hmm . . . my though was not that we should get the same to-hit bonus as them, or even that they get the same to-hit bonuses as us. I'm just pointing out that herein lies the issue with AC builds and why they are about to go the way of the dinosaur.

See how we are beating these quest?

We are beating the quest because clerics are GULPING down mana pots, buying heal scrolls by the 100s and basically spending every last copper piece to keep the barbarians healed up. Talk about killing the game economy. I know a lot of people who had a whole lotta plat, who are now totally broke because of the Shroud.

[Kamboe]

We are beating the quest because clerics are GULPING down mana pots, buying heal scrolls by the 100s and basically spending every last copper piece to keep the barbarians healed up. Talk about killing the game economy. I know a lot of people who had a whole lotta plat, who are now totally broke because of the Shroud.

You have to drink mana pots in what quest? Part 4 and 5 of the raid are the only ones i have to dirnk mana pots in, sometime i dont even have to drink em, i just use heal scrolls constantly. I use maybe 200-300 heal scrolls per raid completion if we dont summon a Rest Shrine via cake

[Kaldaka]

You have to drink mana pots in what quest? Part 4 and 5 of the raid are the only ones i have to dirnk mana pots in, sometime i dont even have to drink em, i just use heal scrolls constantly. I use maybe 200-300 heal scrolls per raid completion if we dont summon a Rest Shrine via cake

Yes I was referring to the shroud:

who are now totally broke because of the Shroud.

You do admit to drinking the pots and using hundreds of heal scrolls for completion, which IMO has become a REQUIREMENT for completion. You do mention those cake shrines, but what happens when the cakes run out? Hell, what happens when the plat for the scrolls/pots runs out? I know people who don't cleric the shroud anymore because they are broke from running it too many times. It is absurd to me that the Shroud has become such a huge plat sink for clerics.

If this is a sign of things to come, the Devs obviously have NO Cleric love whatsoever

[Deriaz]

I know people who don't cleric the shroud anymore because they are broke from running it too many times. It is absurd to me that the Shroud has become such a huge plat sink for clerics.

If this is a sign of things to come, the Devs obviously have NO Cleric love whatsoever

I haven't been in the Shroud personally, as I can't get raid ready for it (Darn you, Warforged haters! *Shakes fist menacingly.*). But I've heard the same thing.

I dunno how the fight with the Pit Fiend goes, but if he's got as much HP as they say. . . If I was a Dev, I'd at least, for a start, make the fight a little more. . . "SP-friendly." Maybe have the Pit Fiend disappear at 66% health, and 33% health for about 30 seconds. At that time, a rest shrine or something would spawn. That way, it's not all down to those hundreds of scrolls when you're out of SP.

I know, it's probably a stupid idea. Probably make the fight incredibly easy. But it's the first thing that came to my head.

Also, as for the To-Hit logic. . . I've heard a theory that the To-Hit is so high to make up for how easy it is to get AC for the players. I mean, when you're running around with 70 AC, obviously, the Devs have to do something to make you non-invincible. The only problem there is that. . . The lower AC players, like those of us that are around maybe 30-40 (If we're lucky) get nailed like we're standing in front of the enemy, just begging for a club in the face.

As for that problem. . . I wish I had an idea. :x

-D

[Mhykke]

I mean, when you're running around with 70 AC, obviously, the Devs have to do something to make you non-invincible.

That's what the 200+ hit point delayed blast fireballs are for....

And it's not all that easy to get AC. Much easier to get damage/specialty weapons, than to achieve that AC. Much.

[Deriaz]

That's what the 200+ hit point delayed blast fireballs are for....

And it's not all that easy to get AC. Much easier to get damage/specialty weapons, than to achieve that AC. Much.

Is that the Pit Fiend that throws those? If so, didn't know about those. Yeah, those would be good at plowing through someone, I'm sure. XD

But as for AC, I know it's not easy to get. I can't get above 42, and that's with a whole line of buffs for my Fighter, so for those that do have the 60, 70s. . . Even high 50s, it's impressive. But with builds and guides and things like that floating around that are readily available, it isn't hard to take one and build a character to get that AC. Granted, you need the gear to match, but that's just a matter of how much money you have, or how much time you're willing to put in to loot run until you can get that item.

But going back to the guide thing, I've been encountering more and more characters that are "AC-specced". It still brings up the point that even normal monsters have to have the To-Hit to get through that, while the lesser AC characters then just get bulldozed.

-D

[Kaldaka]

characters that are "AC-specced". It still brings up the point that even normal monsters have to have the To-Hit to get through that, while the lesser AC characters then just get bulldozed.

And that brings back the point that Clerics get HOSED on this deal

[Deriaz]

And that brings back the point that Clerics get HOSED on this deal

*Nods.* I won't argue that. I've been hesitant to level my own Cleric, because of all of the plat I've heard people sink on that raid, and on some of the higher level stuff. Makes me a little annoyed, too--last game I played, I was a healer. I loved it, mostly because I didn't need to be rich to do it. Here, though, I wish I could play a healer, but I don't know if I'll be able to any time soon, due to To-Hits, costs (or I should say "costs that people expect you to use") to play a Cleric, etc.

-D

[Mhykke]

Is that the Pit Fiend that throws those? If so, didn't know about those. Yeah, those would be good at plowing through someone, I'm sure. XD

But as for AC, I know it's not easy to get. I can't get above 42, and that's with a whole line of buffs for my Fighter, so for those that do have the 60, 70s. . . Even high 50s, it's impressive. But with builds and guides and things like that floating around that are readily available, it isn't hard to take one and build a character to get that AC. Granted, you need the gear to match, but that's just a matter of how much money you have, or how much time you're willing to put in to loot run until you can get that item.

But going back to the guide thing, I've been encountering more and more characters that are "AC-specced". It still brings up the point that even normal monsters have to have the To-Hit to get through that, while the lesser AC characters then just get bulldozed.

-D

Well that's the big debate isn't it?

Is it right that a character has an easier time going max DPS, which is effective at the highest lvls of content, where someone has to go through many more pains to get very high AC, which is almost meaningless at the highest lvls of content?

[Selinius]

*Nods.* I won't argue that. I've been hesitant to level my own Cleric, because of all of the plat I've heard people sink on that raid, and on some of the higher level stuff. Makes me a little annoyed, too--last game I played, I was a healer. I loved it, mostly because I didn't need to be rich to do it. Here, though, I wish I could play a healer, but I don't know if I'll be able to any time soon, due to To-Hits, costs (or I should say "costs that people expect you to use") to play a Cleric, etc.

-D

Umm, stupid question here, but why aren't the clerics running the shroud showing up and saying, "I have 100 heal scrolls and a csw wand. You want more healing than that, you buy it and I will use it." If all the "uber" barbs and fighters want that I.V. hook-up from the cleric, they can **** well pay for it. I have a cleric that is shroud ready, and he has only been in their twice, both completions. Haven't been bankrupted yet, but then I didn't run my cleric much when the necro came out due to my not wanting to dump plat on healing people. Clerics will continue to be broke till they all grow a pair and tell the melees to start paying for the healing they recieve. I am not saying that melees need to buy every single heal scroll that a cleric uses, but they can buy a stack or 2 to help out and dole them out as needed.

On a side note, I am seeing more people who run clerics have a high level bard to help offset the "costs" of running their cleric.

[Emili]

Well that's the big debate isn't it?

Is it right that a character has an easier time going max DPS, which is effective at the highest lvls of content, where someone has to go through many more pains to get very high AC, which is almost meaningless at the highest lvls of content?

There are a lot more variables involved then this... AC, Saves, HP, spell casting, and healing potential all come into play. It's not surprising AC took a back seat when some classes breach 400hp and some classes save require a 2 and a caster can cast 2000hp damage spells and a cleric can heal crit for 1000hp and pick up enogh heal scrolls to shower a party of 12... It's more like they're giving the mob a chance. It's truely a heck of a balancing act to try to get by. Plus it stems from pigeon-holing classes to extremes. If the highest AC, Saves, HP, spell casting, DPS are over 100% more then the average obtainable by a pure any-other-class then you get this breakdown. ie.) 600+hp Barbarian vs 200+hp rogue, 70ac+ tank vs 35ac+ barb, 40+save pally vs 20+save fighter... under these circumstances since we're dealing with a d20's and d100's there is little room for balancing to the average class character because the character/class extreme is far above the the average of another class.

Basically I'm saying it cannot be balanced at all because the ac possible for a tank is at least twice then the average AC attainable by the sorc... the highest HP of a barb is at least three times the average HP of a sorc... the highest damage output of a DPS is at least twice-ten times the average dps of a non- DPS character... saves follow suit...

This all stems from the MMO aspect of the game... and the non-MMO aspect of the underlying ruleset - DnD - where the game was based. The minute people said Barbarian means DPS, Sorc means cannon, Cleric means Heal, Fighter means AC, The versitility which were once part of the classes goes out the window... and something has to give in the balance... In order for the Tank's AC to matter in this case would mean to lower the to-hit of the mob... then not only does the Tank's AC become meaningfull but so does the BArbarians to some extent... thus we'd have to back off on the barb's DPS, And the Casters DPS, etc... to give the mob a fighting chance again.

So you tell me... how do the devs manage to balance this all out without giving someone an insta-win ticket.

[Deriaz]

Umm, stupid question here, but why aren't the clerics running the shroud showing up and saying, "I have 100 heal scrolls and a csw wand. You want more healing than that, you buy it and I will use it." If all the "uber" barbs and fighters want that I.V. hook-up from the cleric, they can **** well pay for it. I have a cleric that is shroud ready, and he has only been in their twice, both completions. Haven't been bankrupted yet, but then I didn't run my cleric much when the necro came out due to my not wanting to dump plat on healing people. Clerics will continue to be broke till they all grow a pair and tell the melees to start paying for the healing they recieve. I am not saying that melees need to buy every single heal scroll that a cleric uses, but they can buy a stack or 2 to help out and dole them out as needed.

On a side note, I am seeing more people who run clerics have a high level bard to help offset the "costs" of running their cleric.

See, maybe I'm just spoiled by the other game. But I don't like the idea of needing to pay to be an efficient healer. Your SP bar should be good enough. Anything else like scrolls are just extra. But more and more, with people going to DPS and less AC, due to To-Hits, it's like you need to spend more and more to keep them alive and keep the party going. I don't like that prospect.

I like watching red bars (Crazy, I know.). I don't like watching wallets, inventories, and vendors for deals. >>

-D

[BlueLightBandit]

Even high AC characters need healing too. It's not like characters with low ac cost the clerics more... especially considering that a majority of the damage done at higher levels comes from magic (a lot of mobs attacks are considered magical IIRC) and thus bypass any and all AC.

Further, if you sacrifice HP for a higher AC... then the cleric spends just as much mana raising you, as he does healing others.

AC is really not a smart tactic at the highest levels. That's not an opinion... that's a fact. It's just not a sound investment, much like a bards perform skill or a rogues evasion against traps... maybe they're not working as intended, but that's the way the game is.

[Borror0]

In order for the Tank's AC to matter in this case would mean to lower the to-hit of the mob... then not only does the Tank's AC become meaningfull but so does the BArbarians to some extent... thus we'd have to back off on the barb's DPS, And the Casters DPS, etc... to give the mob a fighting chance again.

So you tell me... how do the devs manage to balance this all out without giving someone an insta-win ticket.

The one that will tell me that the barbarians need more DPS will get alughed at. Sorcerers cannot blow through a quest like they used to last module, but that's a good thing. they still remain quite useful and very powerful. Neither of them would need an increase of DPS. I think that everyone will agree on that.

By lowering the mobs' to-hit, you will make lower AC matter, but how much? Unless they go and make 35-40 AC worth it, I doubt you'll see any barb going for AC. And even if they do, more power to them: it's not easy getting more AC. Or at least, not as easy as it is to get high DPS.

Lately, I entered the Shroud on Normal, Hard and Elite. On normal, 55 AC was not getting at all... well, like 20% tops! (I'll go back for more accurate numbers as soon as I get off timer) On Hard, I was getting hit 63,2% of the time with a 57 AC. And on elite... I was getting hit 95% of the time... 57 AC!!! Versus the Elite Orthon, I was getting sliced through like butter! Then, don't get me started on the red named in part 2 or even less the pit fiend!! This is riddiculous. My friend reported that a 66 AC wasn't doing much good versus the named Orthon in part 2... and he could barely hit the guy... with a +3 of Greater Lawful Outsider Bane. To hit him, he had to turn CE off... but there his AC dropped to 61...

However, I'll agree on one point, though. It is very hard to balance within a d20... and to consider all the buffs possible. But neither shoudl they consider all the possible buff.

So, they added a +4 Insight wweapon? Well, I don't own one yet. Neither will I be able to weild it all the time. what if I need a Curespewer? (Yes, I try to curse red names) Or a Vorpal? Or a Banisher? What if I'd like to use a Paralyzer? Will I'll get one, I might not use it all the time... or if I will, I'll loose a lot from it. Did they forget that? AC is not free, it's lots of efforts to get and has a costs in inventory slot!

So, bards got Inspire Heroics? You guys know how often I run into bards in a PuG? Do you know how much of them cast it? First, they got to be at least 15 bard, so that excludes to 14 bard/2 fighter builds, two 14 bard/2 rogue builds and the kind. Also excludes the non-capped splashed builds... or those that are still level 14! Then, you got to think of those that don't know what's for, or those that don't feel like buffing you with it every 7 minutes. Because, yes, that is a single target buff that only affects one party member at a time. So, if you want to buff everyone in the party with it, it'll cost 6 songs... or 12 in a raid... and you'll have to sing again, every 7 minutes.. or less. Not that easy to get that 4 AC. And I'll repeat it again, I don't have a Bard in my group all the time!

Oh, then, there are paladin! Well, as a start almost every AC build has 2 or 3 paladin levels. So, a paladin has a maximum of +3 to +2 AC most of the time. that is if he paid for it. It might get more common post-module 7, but right now, I haven't seen a paladin with Bulwark of Good IV. In fact, I can't even remember the last time I played with a paladin. Most of them aren't played anymore, because they had AC as their main asset... and now they need a lot for it to work... and they can't make it reach it that high. And of the few paladin I encounter, very little have Bulwark of Good III, most stop at II...

Oh, now you got rangers' Barkskin! But that's a +2, max... when you got a ranger. That's not all the time.

There is also Recitation, but most cleric don't cast it because "AC is dead" and it lasts not very long.

Sure, with all of that my tank goes up from 58 AC Hasted to 75 AC! But how often is that going to happen? Oh, while you're at it you could also factor in debuff... but let's keep that for red named... for the rare instances where casters actually debuff..

Now, what's my point? Well, sure you can get crazy high AC! But it's hard, and getting 75 AC is very rare! With al the perfect buff I vary from 17 points? So? How often is thaqt going to happen. If you got that party, more power to you. Getting 58 AC by yourself takes already lots of efforts. That's a +5 MFP, +5 MTS, Chattering Ring, Chaosgarde, +5 Protection a whole pile of Barkskin potions and you got to stay out of the god **** Rage that people cast just to mess up your AC without any warning!!! It's been said that Turbien should not plan for the powergamers, so why do I need such a high AC. I understand it's Elite, but Elite means it's harder... not that barbs totally pwns the fighters.

[Borror0]

AC is really not a smart tactic at the highest levels. That's not an opinion... that's a fact. It's just not a sound investment, much like a bards perform skill or a rogues evasion against traps... maybe they're not working as intended, but that's the way the game is.

You do realise that a bard's perform skill enables him to sing his songs? A bard with 0 perform as no songs... You also do know that Evasion doesn't work only versus trap but also versus every damaging spells? Thoseyou said are the biggest source of damage at high levels?

then, maybe AC isn't the "most efficient" but it is still quite good. I'd be dump to say DPS isn't ruling the end game, but that doesn't mean AC can contribute. We don't all play the most efficient tons, otherwise there would have only Barbarians, sorcerers and cleric in our group, back in module 4... oh, and warchanters when they got popular.

Fact is, an intimitank is tons of Fun to play. It's quite effective... except on Elite Shroud.

[Kaldaka]

Fact is, an intimitank is tons of Fun to play. It's quite effective... except on Elite Shroud.

And obviously this is just a sign of things to come with the next cap increase. If things continue the way they are going, AC will become ABSOLUTELY meaningless, and Clerics will become totally broke, anybody who doesn't have a Cleric now aint gonna roll one, NO FREAKING WAY. Anybody who has a lowbie Cleric is prolly gonna stop leveling him unless something is done. Hell, I see the day coming where all the Clerics are gonna go on strike, and this game will absolutely grind to a HALT. I can only assume this is what the Devs want?? Because it is coming.

[Borror0]

I can only assume this is what the Devs want?? Because it is coming.

I'm wondering that too, not in the way you're presenting it, but I wonder if the Devs do desire AC to be thrown at the garbage, for good.

However, I disagree with clerics getting broke and the sort. Honeslty, if you got enough DPS in a party, there is less healing needed. The problem is those AC guys without intimidate that get their aggro stolen by the barbarian's glancing blows. I mean, if you got AC, make the whole party take advantage of it. Otherwise, you're lowering the overall DPS and even though you're cheaper to heal, you're maknig the barbarian more expensive to heal.

[BlueLightBandit]

You do realise that a bard's perform skill enables him to sing his songs? A bard with 0 perform as no songs... You also do know that Evasion doesn't work only versus trap but also versus every damaging spells? Thoseyou said are the biggest source of damage at high levels?

then, maybe AC isn't the "most efficient" but it is still quite good. I'd be dump to say DPS isn't ruling the end game, but that doesn't mean AC can contribute. We don't all play the most efficient tons, otherwise there would have only Barbarians, sorcerers and cleric in our group, back in module 4... oh, and warchanters when they got popular.

Fact is, an intimitank is tons of Fun to play. It's quite effective... except on Elite Shroud.

Certainly... but once he/she/it reaches 12 ranks (is it 12 or 15, I forget) they're done... it does ABSOLUTELY NOTHING after that.

Which is precisely why I said there are a lot of instances where certain in game features are simply useless. A bards perform skill is the same at 15 as it is at 712. A rogues evasion is useless against traps. And a tanks AC is worthless in the highest level content.

My point was that while these things have their use... a high dps, high hit point character is useful more often, even more so at the highest level content.

Borr, you're a champion for AC... and you've got my respect for that. But AC only takes you so far in this game.