A note to rogues for the shroud

[Ninety]

I think the problem with this argument is that you assume rogues will get sneak attack damage while ranging. I, in fact, tried ranging the Pit Fiend after a couple time dieing during our first few forays into Part 4. I started out shooting from where the other rangers were, and slowly closed in to where I started seeing my sneak attack numbers pop up. But, by the time I was in that close, I started taking actual melee damage from the Pit Fiend. His reach was just too long, ranged sneak attack distance too short, and attacks to slow, to actually have much success using range.

Now, maybe a rogue that was specced out for ranged combat, with all the feats to go along with it, might be better off ranging. But, in my experience, a rogue is much better off getting in close and just being careful.


(Btw, 30 Fire Resist is not enough to not take damage from a failed save on his fireballs, even with Imp. Evasion. Either you were making every save, or had Fire Protection on)

his fireballs are only about 250 damage.

-30 for resists, -1/2 for improved evasion (not sure which order they are applied in) so if a rogue failed they are only taking 90-120 damage... so you don't really need fire protection on as a rogue, since 1 heal scroll will take that right back up.

[Coldin]

his fireballs are only about 250 damage.

-30 for resists, -1/2 for improved evasion (not sure which order they are applied in) so if a rogue failed they are only taking 90-120 damage... so you don't really need fire protection on as a rogue, since 1 heal scroll will take that right back up.

Yeah, but he said he was a ranger. So no Imp. Evasion for him.

[Eudimio]

someone earlier mentioned light fort which i really believe to be too low as i don't see the sneak attack damage proc very often. Then again his aggro is sporadic and perhaps that has something to do with it as well.

Also, have you tried intimidating him on hard or elite? His intimidate score on hard is a 62. I don't know about yours but my intimitank doesn't hit that mark or better too reliably.

Aeneas, Big A's fortification is certainly light. But I once thought it was moderate. I was seeing around 20% "big numbers", so I assumed around 75% of my sneak attacks were blocked. I was wrong. Everyone else in my group was doing FAR less damage then me, even without sneak attacks. In subsequent runs, I removed the dps weapon from my offhand and replaced it with Treason. Boom, tons of sneaks after that.

It turns out that my "big numbers" were mostly crits. So pump up your subtle backstabber and grab a Treason. You'll start seeing those sneaks again.

Happy Hunting.

[Eudimio]

That's all well and good. I'm sure i could do it on either of mine as well as they both have ~350 hit points, do decent damage, and have AC in the high 50's. i was just saying that backstab damage is overstated for part 4 and 5. When not doing the hero method (which just about nobody does) it is more economical to have fewer tanks sucking up the heal scrolls and sp from the clerics. Rogues are meant to do massive backstab damage but against a mob with fortification and random aggro it is no longer prudent to stand and fight when you could keep your hit points, help watch the health bars of the pure melee classes, do ranged and occasional backstab damage, and only take very rare failed reflex save DBF damage. Even a strength based rogue isn't going to keep up with a properly built barb or ranger if their extra damage isn't counted on every hit. It's wasteful and puts our usefulness in that quest in a bad light that discourages pugs from picking up rogues their next time through.

Hey again,

Okay, so you're telling me that you have two rogues with AC in the high 50s, and you are actually taking damage in Part 4 and 5? You sir, are lying. Or you had no palladin or ranger in your group. Or the casters didn't cast haste. Or the bard didn't use inspire heroism on you. Or the clerics didn't cast recitation. Or none of your casters memorized or used common debuff spells.

The pit fiend's attack bonus is only about +45 on normal. A couple buffs on you and a couple of debuffs on Big A and he'll only hit you 5% of the time. Drinking potions or getting a mass cure splash should take care of all of your damage.

And his aggro ISN'T random. His attacks are. Big difference. If you don't have aggro, you're getting sneak attacks 75% of the time. Stop being a useless rogue in the shroud.

Happy Hunting.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Yeah, but he said he was a ranger. So no Imp. Evasion for him.

Right, multi-classed but no imp evasion.

it was on normal, and this was prt 4. And he didn't send a lot my way, but once we started loosing tanks he became a lot more interested in throwing fireballs at me. Probably just made all me saves. But it seems to me a rogue would have even better luck with the not taking damage thing.

I was probably too far away for sneak attack damage. I also took little damage from the blades cause I was usually outside of them.

Just my observations, take them for what they are worth. Every char is different, but since that was my second attempt at prt 4 and both times it ended with a wipe.......except for me.......I think the tactic is valid.

The guys meleeing him got killed....so did everyone else....either by his claws or his fireballs...not sure which....but IMO ranging and evasion can do damage and keep you alive a very long time.

[Ninety]

The guys meleeing him got killed....so did everyone else....either by his claws or his fireballs...not sure which....but IMO ranging and evasion can do damage and keep you alive a very long time.

until he disappears and you have have 4 devils swarming over you. haven't seen a ranged ranger live much longer than that. now a melee based... that's different.

[Aeneas]

Hey again,

Okay, so you're telling me that you have two rogues with AC in the high 50s, and you are actually taking damage in Part 4 and 5? You sir, are lying. Or you had no palladin or ranger in your group. Or the casters didn't cast haste. Or the bard didn't use inspire heroism on you. Or the clerics didn't cast recitation. Or none of your casters memorized or used common debuff spells.

The pit fiend's attack bonus is only about +45 on normal. A couple buffs on you and a couple of debuffs on Big A and he'll only hit you 5% of the time. Drinking potions or getting a mass cure splash should take care of all of your damage.

And his aggro ISN'T random. His attacks are. Big difference. If you don't have aggro, you're getting sneak attacks 75% of the time. Stop being a useless rogue in the shroud.

Happy Hunting.

You sir are good at inciting flame wars. And calling people liars with zero tact or evidence to support such a claim is generally frowned upon. Do i really need to provide a screenshot of Moths to prove to you that i can get his AC short term into the mid-high 60's and am generally around 58 long term shroud buffed? Would you also like me to go back in on hard to verify the intimidate number i gave?

Please show me your dev ID card that allows you to know what his attack bonus is, actual fortification percentage, and the code for his magical AI that is radically different than every other aggro mechanic for every other mob in the game. While you're at it, show me how you justify drinking a pot that heals 24 hit points and takes a second away from swinging, with a few second cool down for the next when you only have about a minute and a half to swing on him between blade spirals, are taking 50ish damage from melee hits, and around a 100 on a failed reflex save? You could recover more hit points and do more damage eating a tasty ham before you run in - drinking a pot is a waste of time unless you manage to escape to safety with 5 hit points, the clerics aren't paying any attention to you, and you're too gimped to use a heal scroll.

Truth be told, nobody really knows what his aggro mechanic is. If he turns and faces you to attack, he may have you selected even if temporarily for an attack - there is no way for you to actually know - you're assuming. My rogue has a 44 intimidate, i can intimidate pretty well on normal and i can tell you for sure that it doesn't stop him from rotating and swinging wildly at everyone. Also, our combat log doesn't show "Arraetrikos has selected you for his next attack". In actuality quickly switching aggro would account for the reason that some people believe he actually has something like 50% fort and not just 25% because in my experience, i only see sneak attack damage every other hit or so. Trust me, i'm not holding his aggro with damage, my guild has some really serious dps barbs, fighters, and rangers - i don't believe that 25% fort accounts for sneak attacks going off as seldom as they do. It is entirely possible however, by the very nature of this game that is built around luck and dice rolls, that i may have just been unlucky and not rolled high enough to overcome his light fort often enough for it to appear to be only light fort. If that's the case, then that's ok with me - i don't call names or discredit the integrity of someone i don't even know when i disagree with them or they've proven me wrong - imperfection is A-ok with me and i've been wrong plenty of times.

My advice was from trial and error with 4 different classes and 3 different races running the shroud 1-4 or 5 multiple times. While on my dwarven rogues, it seems to me that ranging with my appropriate for the fiend shortbow, helping out with heal scrolls, and raising dead if it's needed so the clerics can concentrate on healing is far more conducive to winning than melee. It's my little "note to rogues for the shroud" - not the only choice to make. Play your character however you like, i was just giving some advice from personal experience.

[Shaamis]

Here is the dilemma I have with my rogue and the shroud:

I have a 13/2 rogue/ftr w/p TWF, and heavy repeating spec'ed

I can't even get a pug group to accept me, and I KNOW I dont wanna face the pit-fiend HtH

[Sydril]

Let me first say that player skill can almost always overcome class difficulties. That being said common sense must kick in somewhere. Rogues are capable of producing amazing damage, however they are simply not cut out to take on Raid bosses which can drop you in two swings. Clerics such as myself waste needless resources to keep Rogues up who decide to melee the Pit Fiend, due to the extremely short window of time to get that heal through.

Let the Barbs and fighters with 400+ hp stand toe to toe with the boss, while you range him from 30 feet away (still getting your sneak attack damange) while evading the blades and fireballs. Your Hp is a serious setback, just as a locked door is to a Barbartian

My rogue has over 300 hp and is specced for two weapon fighting DPS. A strength based drow barbarian 3 / rogue 13, who can also use heal scrolls with 90% effectiveness.

I have only died 2 times in the 20 or so times that I have run the shroud part 4.

Posts like this remind me why I always have a hard time getting accepted to pugs. People who typecast and stereotype on these forums are often unable to communicate and resolve these issues as they take place in game.

[Aeneas]

My rogue has over 300 hp and is specced for two weapon fighting DPS. A strength based drow barbarian 3 / rogue 13, who can also use heal scrolls with 90% effectiveness.

I have only died 2 times in the 20 or so times that I have run the shroud part 4.

Posts like this remind me why I always have a hard time getting accepted to pugs. People who typecast and stereotype on these forums are often unable to communicate and resolve these issues as they take place in game.

is the drow barb rage sound effect anywhere near as hilarious as the female elf one? I don't think i've ever heard a drow rage before.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

until he disappears and you have have 4 devils swarming over you. haven't seen a ranged ranger live much longer than that. now a melee based... that's different.

True.....when everyone had either died or left the dungeon, I was all alone....and then the devils appeared.....

I didn't last long.

But up until then, what my group was doing was have everyone mass up when the Pit fiend disappeared and fight his minions together. The big tanks got most of the argo, and I vorpaled as many as I could......worked well. Those were the times I took heavy damage.

But anyway, you can adjust tactics to each part as needed. I just think ranging the pit fiend is a good idea.....especially if you are squishy.

But every one should know what their toon can do, or do well.

But on another note, I've never been a fan of the "swing, swing, swing, heal, heal, heal" tactic that is most often used in DDO. (except in doorways maybe)(and I admit that many dungeons leave little other choice in tactics)

When DQ1/2 were new, I stood face to face with the Demon Queen ans her six swords.......once. Never again. Now I range her.
When I aquired 2 greater elemental bane weapons, I eagerly ran up to melee air elementals in POP!........once. Now I range them, and dodge flying barbarians.

[ghale]

The real problem here is that most people aren't aware of melee distance so they take more damage than they should. If you melee Ark from max melee range you till take significantly less damage then if you are extremely close to him. This works in both 4 and 5, although in 5 it can be more difficult to keep that range as he runs around a little more.

[Aeneas]

The real problem here is that most people aren't aware of melee distance so they take more damage than they should. If you melee Ark from max melee range you till take significantly less damage then if you are extremely close to him. This works in both 4 and 5, although in 5 it can be more difficult to keep that range as he runs around a little more.

I can get on board with that, Ghale, i feel that to be true as well.

[binnsr]

is the drow barb rage sound effect anywhere near as hilarious as the female elf one? I don't think i've ever heard a drow rage before.

have you heard a female halfling rage? Good times!

[Talon_Moonshadow]

have you heard a female halfling rage? Good times!

Got one!

SnowPrincess 1/2ling high dex TWF Brb11. Super high jump skill.

Not a great brb.....but running into a room at full Brb speed jumping high in the air several times her own height, letting out that cute rage scream and landing on top of the baddies and wailing on them with handaxes... + a name like Snowprincess.............fun to play.

Bio: You just got beat in the kill count by a little girl!

[Sydril]

is the drow barb rage sound effect anywhere near as hilarious as the female elf one? I don't think i've ever heard a drow rage before.

No, it sounds rather deep. much different from the elven rage which sounds rather weak. I think the drow rage sounds just like the human or WF rage actually. Not sure though.

halfling, elf and all the female rages are pretty entertaining though.

[Eudimio]

You sir are good at inciting flame wars. And calling people liars with zero tact or evidence to support such a claim is generally frowned upon. Do i really need to provide a screenshot of Moths to prove to you that i can get his AC short term into the mid-high 60's and am generally around 58 long term shroud buffed? Would you also like me to go back in on hard to verify the intimidate number i gave?

Okay, I apollogize for calling you a liar.

But you are wrong.

I thought that when you said you have two rogues with around 350 hitpoints and high 50s AC that that was your unbuffed numbers, which would make more sense then partially-buffed numbers.

No screenshot necessary, but let me know when you can hit AC 80.

Happy Hunting.

[binnsr]

Okay, I apollogize for calling you a liar.

But you are wrong.

I thought that when you said you have two rogues with around 350 hitpoints and high 50s AC that that was your unbuffed numbers, which would make more sense then partially-buffed numbers.

No screenshot necessary, but let me know when you can hit AC 80.

Happy Hunting.

http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p...67&postcount=2

[Eudimio]

http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p...67&postcount=2

Oh, binnsr, you fell into my trap. I wasn't talking about a theoretical build.

Here's my main.

http://imageduck.com/v/screenshot0007748f.jpg

Happy Hunting.

[zyp]

I've done the shroud with my other mains but I've not even tried to bring my rogue through it yet. I just don't see much use for him in there. The notable exception is the locks in part 3 but a caster can knock them way faster than I can pick them.

I guess it would be nice to dance through Big A's fireballs and spinny-blades without that annoying dying thing, though. It seems a rogue should have a pretty good life-expectancy in parts 4 and 5 if he can avoid direct confrontation.