A note to rogues for the shroud

[adrinor]

Wutinni,

Shouldn't you include rangers (lower base hitpoints), paladins (MAD), warforged (healing deficient), and drow and elves (lower constitution) in your melee exclusion? Rogues have the best dps in the shroud (with GTWF), followed by tempest rangers, followed by ANY character that has two-weapon fighting, then barbarians, then fighters.

You must like running with gimps.

Happy Hunting,
Nuckles.

If only more people thought like this

[Auran82]

My rogue doesn't really have any problems in the shroud, or against the pit fiend. He has 260hp, but I know when to back off when fighting him. Usually the best tactic for healing in there is mass heals anyway, and the occaisional heal spell if the fiend decided to hit one of the characters a few times in a row.

As someone mentioned, improved evasion makes the DBFs almost negligable and the sneak attack damage makes a difference.

Amount of HP isn't everything as long as you know when to back off and heal up.

[Wutinni]

Wutinni,

Shouldn't you include rangers (lower base hitpoints), paladins (MAD), warforged (healing deficient), and drow and elves (lower constitution) in your melee exclusion? Rogues have the best dps in the shroud (with GTWF), followed by tempest rangers, followed by ANY character that has two-weapon fighting, then barbarians, then fighters.

You must like running with gimps.

Happy Hunting,
Nuckles.

I actually don't have issues with most Rangers and Paladins (no complaints with WF at all as Casters usually assist with the healing). I find paladins far more self sufficient than Rogues with healing abilities and more hp on average. Rangers built to melee normally have decent hp, however i have asked a few to range the Pit Fiend so that they can still add to DPS without soaking up resources.

Rogues do have evasion which is great and does save from some fire damage, however the majority of rogues have less hp than a true tank which hampers them from the actual melee damage. if anything having evasion would benefit the rogue more if he sat 20 feet from the pit fiend and ranged him (staying in the blades). Its not a question of evasion, saves or DPS simply the split second it takes for a rogue to drop before a heal can reach him without individual attention.

[Wutinni]

Did you just say "that heal"?

Note for clerics for the shroud: Don't cast Heal on people fighting the pit fiend. It's stupid.

Note for rogues in the shroud: Go melee the pit fiend. His most important source of damage is Delayed Blast Fireball, which will only hit you 5% of the time for 50% damage. Wear your +6 con ring, greater false life belt, and Minos Legens, and you'll get healed for free in the splashover from the Mass Cures that any good clerics are casting.

Mass heal is the bread and butter during the melee, however heal is a low sp emergency (with separate cooldown) when one of the tanks with agro gets hit really hard. Most tanks should carry pots of fire protection to minimize the fire damage, however that only happens in a perfect world.

[Guildmaster_Kadish]

The countdown begins, ya just know someones going to post with their uber rouge build, something thats obviously the exception to every rouge rule out there.....can't wait

Oooo my rogue that started with 10 con and never took the toughness feat has 313 unbuffed hp!

[Guildmaster_Kadish]

Shouldn't you include rangers (lower base hitpoints), paladins (MAD), warforged (healing deficient), and drow and elves (lower constitution) in your melee exclusion? Rogues have the best dps in the shroud (with GTWF), followed by tempest rangers, followed by ANY character that has two-weapon fighting, then barbarians, then fighters.

Although I'd tend to agree in general, just a quick fix to the order...

1. GTWF Rogues getting sneak attacks.
2. Tempest Rangers (Str.-Based) fighting favored enemies.
3. Raged GTWF Barbarians.

Etcetera.

Master Kadish

[Strakeln]

Although I'd tend to agree in general, just a quick fix to the order...

1. GTWF Rogues getting sneak attacks.
2. Tempest Rangers (Str.-Based) fighting favored enemies.
3. Raged GTWF Barbarians.

Etcetera.

Master Kadish

Where do Raged Tempest Barbarians fighting favored enemies fit in?

/someone had to point it out

[Snoggy]

Never done the Shroud, so not sure, but why heal someone who's taking unnecessary damage on the last fight in a quest? Wouldn't it be better to just let them die if they were doing something they shouldn't be doing? Can always raise them after the fight is done if you need them later (or want to give them their shot at the end chest).

Normally that logic works. But in the case of the Pit Fiend, even though the cost of resources is high, that added spurt of DPS can be make-or-break for some raids.

Tis the price of doing business with the Twelve, alas.

[Snoggy]

Oooo my rogue that started with 10 con and never took the toughness feat has 313 unbuffed hp!

Doesn't a Minos Helm force (or rather sneak) a toughness feat onto you?

:P

[Guildmaster_Kadish]

Doesn't a Minos Helm force (or rather sneak) a toughness feat onto you?

:P

Never said I don't have it... just said I didn't take the feat.

[Eudimio]

Although I'd tend to agree in general, just a quick fix to the order...

1. GTWF Rogues getting sneak attacks.
2. Tempest Rangers (Str.-Based) fighting favored enemies.
3. Raged GTWF Barbarians.

Etcetera.

Master Kadish

Sigh. Why must I argue stupid minor points? This is all based on Parts 4 & 5 of the shroud. (You know, the topic of discussion.)

GTWF rogues are only not getting sneak attacks in when A) Big A's light fort kicks in. B) When they are already doing the most damage.

Please send me a list of all of the level 16 tempest rangers that do not have favored enemy: evil outsiders. I will send them all a dragon shard. (All none of them.) There is a strength threshhold where a barb will out-dps a tempest. It's around 14 or so.

Your #3 fits into my "all of the rest" category, and would certainly be near the top. Yup, near. (haste boost >> critical rage) (These are short fights.)

Happy Hunting,
Nuckles.

[Guildmaster_Kadish]

Sigh. Why must I argue stupid minor points? This is all based on Parts 4 & 5 of the shroud. (You know, the topic of discussion.)

GTWF rogues are only not getting sneak attacks in when A) Big A's light fort kicks in. B) When they are already doing the most damage.

Please send me a list of all of the level 16 tempest rangers that do not have favored enemy: evil outsiders. I will send them all a dragon shard. (All none of them.) There is a strength threshhold where a barb will out-dps a tempest. It's around 14 or so.

Your #3 fits into my "all of the rest" category, and would certainly be near the top. Yup, near. (haste boost >> critical rage) (These are short fights.)

Happy Hunting,
Nuckles.

/sigh... guess I wasn't reading carefully (more like broadly skimming I suppose). I meant in-game overall, didn't realize we were talking specifically about shroud specifically (d'oh). Sorry for the confusion mate.

Master Kadish

P.S. Just to make my very nitpicky position clear -- I didn't mean to say that rogues and rangers are worse somehow in damage output. I consistently play with a pair of extremely high-dps tempest rangers, have played a TWF ranger in the past (my first character, since been retired), and currently play a str-based dwarven rogue. So when I say rogues getting sneak attacks or rangers fighting favored enemies, I'm aware that that happens extremely often, and I'm not trying to downplay the effectiveness of those types of characters. However, I also play with many skilled barbarians (Prey/Extinction comes to mind), and I was merely pointing out that there are some cases that such a barbarian will outdo the other classes in dps. And yes, you are correct, shroud 4-5 is not one of those cases.

[Aeneas]

There are rogues with enough HP to attempt that. Improved Evasion goes a long way into making this possible. And they are tons of DPS when Borror is intimidating.

actually they aren't, the fiend has 50-75% fort it seems which means sneak attack damage is very often negated regardless of aggro. A rogue is better off finding a good bow and standing just far enough away to avoid melee damage but close enough to still get that occasional sneak attack roll when his fortification fails - and your friendly neighborhood cleric certainly wouldn't object to you helping with heals and raise deads when necessary .

[Aeneas]

actually they aren't, the fiend has 50-75% fort which means sneak attack damage is very often negated regardless of aggro. A rogue is better off finding a good bow and standing just far enough away to avoid melee damage but close enough to still get that occasional sneak attack roll when his fortification fails.

someone earlier mentioned light fort which i really believe to be too low as i don't see the sneak attack damage proc very often. Then again his aggro is sporadic and perhaps that has something to do with it as well.

Also, have you tried intimidating him on hard or elite? His intimidate score on hard is a 62. I don't know about yours but my intimitank doesn't hit that mark or better too reliably.

[Coldin]

My pure, 28 point, human rogue solo-tanked the Pit Fiend, and did not die and merely used up some cleric's heal scrolls.

I even have witnesses.

[Aeneas]

My pure, 28 point, human rogue solo-tanked the Pit Fiend, and did not die and merely used up some cleric's heal scrolls.

I even have witnesses.

That's all well and good. I'm sure i could do it on either of mine as well as they both have ~350 hit points, do decent damage, and have AC in the high 50's. i was just saying that backstab damage is overstated for part 4 and 5. When not doing the hero method (which just about nobody does) it is more economical to have fewer tanks sucking up the heal scrolls and sp from the clerics. Rogues are meant to do massive backstab damage but against a mob with fortification and random aggro it is no longer prudent to stand and fight when you could keep your hit points, help watch the health bars of the pure melee classes, do ranged and occasional backstab damage, and only take very rare failed reflex save DBF damage. Even a strength based rogue isn't going to keep up with a properly built barb or ranger if their extra damage isn't counted on every hit. It's wasteful and puts our usefulness in that quest in a bad light that discourages pugs from picking up rogues their next time through.

[Coldin]

That's all well and good. I'm sure i could do it on either of mine as well as they both have ~350 hit points, do decent damage, and have AC in the high 50's. i was just saying that backstab damage is overstated for part 4 and 5. When not doing the hero method (which just about nobody does) it is more economical to have fewer tanks sucking up the heal scrolls and sp from the clerics. Rogues are meant to do massive backstab damage but against a mob with fortification and random aggro it is no longer prudent to stand and fight when you could keep your hit points, help watch the health bars of the pure melee classes, do ranged and occasional backstab damage, and only take very rare failed reflex save DBF damage. Even a strength based rogue isn't going to keep up with a properly built barb or ranger if their extra damage isn't counted on every hit. It's wasteful and puts our usefulness in that quest in a bad light that discourages pugs from picking up rogues their next time through.

I won't disagree that a Barbarian or Fighter will probably put out more damage. But those Fighters and Barbs will be taking a ton of damage from those Fireballs, and they too get hit by the Pit Fiends melee attacks.

Thing is, my rogue is really nothing special. 28 point build, high Int + Dex, moderate Cha, average Str, Con, and Wis. Just wearing a mithral chainshirt, and using a rapier and shield. Enhancements are skewed towards trap busting and sneak attacking.

I think the problem is that you're not looking at a rogue fighting the Pit Fiend right. I'll jump into the fray, activate my Uncanny Dodge and Haste Boosts, and go to town. If my HP dips down to about half (maybe lower depending on how fast the healing is coming in), I back off, wait till the clerics can catch up, then go back in. If my stoneskin runs out, I'll cast a fresh one. When I actually was soloing the Pit Fiend, I'd throw in a Feint every now and again to get a sneak attack.

I'm just saying though, rogues aren't as bad against the Pit Fiend as you seem to think.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

I would never want to tell someone how they should play their toon.....but let me give a personal story from last night.

Got to prt 4 of the Shroud for only my second time (Haven't run my main mush lately and he's the only toon flaged for it)
He's a multi-classed ranger.
I sat back and ranged the pit fiend from across the room.......saw lots of red numbers......didn't take a single point of damage from him!
Most of the party wiped, and the rest DDoored out and left....and I was too stupid to leave and got killed by devils.......but not the pit fiend!
Toward the end with many losses in the group he started thrwong fireballs at me.......saved every time, or at least my Greater fire resist cloak was enough, so that I never took a single point of damage from his fireballs.
He never tried to reach me in any other way.

My best advice for rogues, would be to do the exact same thing......range him.....get sneak attack damage most of the time....and let your evasion keep you alive! It might not be the fastest way to deliver damage.....but it is by far the safest and best use of resources IMO.

[JoeyJoJoJr]

My best advice for rogues, would be to do the exact same thing......range him.....get sneak attack damage most of the time....and let your evasion keep you alive! It might not be the fastest way to deliver damage.....but it is by far the safest and best use of resources IMO.

which is the point of the OP.

[Coldin]

I would never want to tell someone how they should play their toon.....but let me give a personal story from last night.

Got to prt 4 of the Shroud for only my second time (Haven't run my main mush lately and he's the only toon flaged for it)
He's a multi-classed ranger.
I sat back and ranged the pit fiend from across the room.......saw lots of red numbers......didn't take a single point of damage from him!
Most of the party wiped, and the rest DDoored out and left....and I was too stupid to leave and got killed by devils.......but not the pit fiend!
Toward the end with many losses in the group he started thrwong fireballs at me.......saved every time, or at least my Greater fire resist cloak was enough, so that I never took a single point of damage from his fireballs.
He never tried to reach me in any other way.

My best advice for rogues, would be to do the exact same thing......range him.....get sneak attack damage most of the time....and let your evasion keep you alive! It might not be the fastest way to deliver damage.....but it is by far the safest and best use of resources IMO.

I think the problem with this argument is that you assume rogues will get sneak attack damage while ranging. I, in fact, tried ranging the Pit Fiend after a couple time dieing during our first few forays into Part 4. I started out shooting from where the other rangers were, and slowly closed in to where I started seeing my sneak attack numbers pop up. But, by the time I was in that close, I started taking actual melee damage from the Pit Fiend. His reach was just too long, ranged sneak attack distance too short, and attacks to slow, to actually have much success using range.

Now, maybe a rogue that was specced out for ranged combat, with all the feats to go along with it, might be better off ranging. But, in my experience, a rogue is much better off getting in close and just being careful.


(Btw, 30 Fire Resist is not enough to not take damage from a failed save on his fireballs, even with Imp. Evasion. Either you were making every save, or had Fire Protection on)