A note to rogues for the shroud

[Wutinni]

Let me first say that player skill can almost always overcome class difficulties. That being said common sense must kick in somewhere. Rogues are capable of producing amazing damage, however they are simply not cut out to take on Raid bosses which can drop you in two swings. Clerics such as myself waste needless resources to keep Rogues up who decide to melee the Pit Fiend, due to the extremely short window of time to get that heal through.

Let the Barbs and fighters with 400+ hp stand toe to toe with the boss, while you range him from 30 feet away (still getting your sneak attack damange) while evading the blades and fireballs. Your Hp is a serious setback, just as a locked door is to a Barbartian

[Arianrhod]

Never done the Shroud, so not sure, but why heal someone who's taking unnecessary damage on the last fight in a quest? Wouldn't it be better to just let them die if they were doing something they shouldn't be doing? Can always raise them after the fight is done if you need them later (or want to give them their shot at the end chest).

[Wutinni]

While I cant argue with the logic, it makes for bad relations with some guilds

If i tell someone to back off and they dont listen, then all bets are off

[Arianrhod]

Ah, i see the dilemma. This would be why I don't raid....would rather do without every uber item in the game than have to deal with guild drama

[binnsr]

Never done the Shroud, so not sure, but why heal someone who's taking unnecessary damage on the last fight in a quest? Wouldn't it be better to just let them die if they were doing something they shouldn't be doing? Can always raise them after the fight is done if you need them later (or want to give them their shot at the end chest).

In the parts of the shroud where you're fighting the Pit Fiend, a dead party member is transported to time-out away from the group. Death can be a serious, tactic-changing matter in the last couple of parts of the raid.

[direwolf33]

Never done the Shroud, so not sure, but why heal someone who's taking unnecessary damage on the last fight in a quest? Wouldn't it be better to just let them die if they were doing something they shouldn't be doing? Can always raise them after the fight is done if you need them later (or want to give them their shot at the end chest).

This would be perfectly acceptable in some quests. However, the shroud can be such a difficult raid that you cannot afford to waste a party spot on someone who must be left dead and cannot then do their job.

[OrganGrinder]

The countdown begins, ya just know someones going to post with their uber rouge build, something thats obviously the exception to every rouge rule out there.....can't wait

[binnsr]

The countdown begins, ya just know someones going to post with their uber rouge build, something thats obviously the exception to every rouge rule out there.....can't wait

well, since you asked..

A composition for rouge for lip of the present invention is a composition for rouge for lip containing a volatile oil content, a water-repellent polymer soluble to the volatile oil content, powder, and a nonvolatile oil content having a compatibility with the volatile oil content, wherein the powder contained in 1 g of the composition has a total surface arm of 1 to 25 m

[Tap4black]

Originally posted by Wutinni
Your Hp is a serious setback, just as a locked door is to a Barbartian

Hey now! I'll have you know that my fully raged, 46 Str Evasion Barbarian with near 600 HP has an open lock skill of +37 and can pop those doors in the shroud just fine thank you

[Guildmaster_Kadish]

The countdown begins, ya just know someones going to post with their uber rouge build, something thats obviously the exception to every rouge rule out there.....can't wait

Oooo my rogue that started with 10 con and never took the toughness feat has 313 unbuffed hp!

[Snoggy]

Oooo my rogue that started with 10 con and never took the toughness feat has 313 unbuffed hp!

Doesn't a Minos Helm force (or rather sneak) a toughness feat onto you?

:P

[direwolf33]

Never done the Shroud, so not sure, but why heal someone who's taking unnecessary damage on the last fight in a quest? Wouldn't it be better to just let them die if they were doing something they shouldn't be doing? Can always raise them after the fight is done if you need them later (or want to give them their shot at the end chest).

This would be perfectly acceptalble in some quests. However, the shroud can be such a difficult raid that you cannot afford to waste a party spot on someone who must be left dead and cannot then do their job.

[Snoggy]

Never done the Shroud, so not sure, but why heal someone who's taking unnecessary damage on the last fight in a quest? Wouldn't it be better to just let them die if they were doing something they shouldn't be doing? Can always raise them after the fight is done if you need them later (or want to give them their shot at the end chest).

Normally that logic works. But in the case of the Pit Fiend, even though the cost of resources is high, that added spurt of DPS can be make-or-break for some raids.

Tis the price of doing business with the Twelve, alas.

[Eudimio]

Let me first say that player skill can almost always overcome class difficulties. That being said common sense must kick in somewhere. Rogues are capable of producing amazing damage, however they are simply not cut out to take on Raid bosses which can drop you in two swings. Clerics such as myself waste needless resources to keep Rogues up who decide to melee the Pit Fiend, due to the extremely short window of time to get that heal through.

Let the Barbs and fighters with 400+ hp stand toe to toe with the boss, while you range him from 30 feet away (still getting your sneak attack damange) while evading the blades and fireballs. Your Hp is a serious setback, just as a locked door is to a Barbartian

Wutinni,

Shouldn't you include rangers (lower base hitpoints), paladins (MAD), warforged (healing deficient), and drow and elves (lower constitution) in your melee exclusion? Rogues have the best dps in the shroud (with GTWF), followed by tempest rangers, followed by ANY character that has two-weapon fighting, then barbarians, then fighters.

You must like running with gimps.

Happy Hunting,
Nuckles.

[adrinor]

Wutinni,

Shouldn't you include rangers (lower base hitpoints), paladins (MAD), warforged (healing deficient), and drow and elves (lower constitution) in your melee exclusion? Rogues have the best dps in the shroud (with GTWF), followed by tempest rangers, followed by ANY character that has two-weapon fighting, then barbarians, then fighters.

You must like running with gimps.

Happy Hunting,
Nuckles.

If only more people thought like this

[Auran82]

My rogue doesn't really have any problems in the shroud, or against the pit fiend. He has 260hp, but I know when to back off when fighting him. Usually the best tactic for healing in there is mass heals anyway, and the occaisional heal spell if the fiend decided to hit one of the characters a few times in a row.

As someone mentioned, improved evasion makes the DBFs almost negligable and the sneak attack damage makes a difference.

Amount of HP isn't everything as long as you know when to back off and heal up.

[Wutinni]

Wutinni,

Shouldn't you include rangers (lower base hitpoints), paladins (MAD), warforged (healing deficient), and drow and elves (lower constitution) in your melee exclusion? Rogues have the best dps in the shroud (with GTWF), followed by tempest rangers, followed by ANY character that has two-weapon fighting, then barbarians, then fighters.

You must like running with gimps.

Happy Hunting,
Nuckles.

I actually don't have issues with most Rangers and Paladins (no complaints with WF at all as Casters usually assist with the healing). I find paladins far more self sufficient than Rogues with healing abilities and more hp on average. Rangers built to melee normally have decent hp, however i have asked a few to range the Pit Fiend so that they can still add to DPS without soaking up resources.

Rogues do have evasion which is great and does save from some fire damage, however the majority of rogues have less hp than a true tank which hampers them from the actual melee damage. if anything having evasion would benefit the rogue more if he sat 20 feet from the pit fiend and ranged him (staying in the blades). Its not a question of evasion, saves or DPS simply the split second it takes for a rogue to drop before a heal can reach him without individual attention.

[Guildmaster_Kadish]

Shouldn't you include rangers (lower base hitpoints), paladins (MAD), warforged (healing deficient), and drow and elves (lower constitution) in your melee exclusion? Rogues have the best dps in the shroud (with GTWF), followed by tempest rangers, followed by ANY character that has two-weapon fighting, then barbarians, then fighters.

Although I'd tend to agree in general, just a quick fix to the order...

1. GTWF Rogues getting sneak attacks.
2. Tempest Rangers (Str.-Based) fighting favored enemies.
3. Raged GTWF Barbarians.

Etcetera.

Master Kadish

[Strakeln]

Although I'd tend to agree in general, just a quick fix to the order...

1. GTWF Rogues getting sneak attacks.
2. Tempest Rangers (Str.-Based) fighting favored enemies.
3. Raged GTWF Barbarians.

Etcetera.

Master Kadish

Where do Raged Tempest Barbarians fighting favored enemies fit in?

/someone had to point it out

[Eudimio]

Although I'd tend to agree in general, just a quick fix to the order...

1. GTWF Rogues getting sneak attacks.
2. Tempest Rangers (Str.-Based) fighting favored enemies.
3. Raged GTWF Barbarians.

Etcetera.

Master Kadish

Sigh. Why must I argue stupid minor points? This is all based on Parts 4 & 5 of the shroud. (You know, the topic of discussion.)

GTWF rogues are only not getting sneak attacks in when A) Big A's light fort kicks in. B) When they are already doing the most damage.

Please send me a list of all of the level 16 tempest rangers that do not have favored enemy: evil outsiders. I will send them all a dragon shard. (All none of them.) There is a strength threshhold where a barb will out-dps a tempest. It's around 14 or so.

Your #3 fits into my "all of the rest" category, and would certainly be near the top. Yup, near. (haste boost >> critical rage) (These are short fights.)

Happy Hunting,
Nuckles.