A note to rogues for the shroud

[Wutinni]

Let me first say that player skill can almost always overcome class difficulties. That being said common sense must kick in somewhere. Rogues are capable of producing amazing damage, however they are simply not cut out to take on Raid bosses which can drop you in two swings. Clerics such as myself waste needless resources to keep Rogues up who decide to melee the Pit Fiend, due to the extremely short window of time to get that heal through.

Let the Barbs and fighters with 400+ hp stand toe to toe with the boss, while you range him from 30 feet away (still getting your sneak attack damange) while evading the blades and fireballs. Your Hp is a serious setback, just as a locked door is to a Barbartian

[Arianrhod]

Never done the Shroud, so not sure, but why heal someone who's taking unnecessary damage on the last fight in a quest? Wouldn't it be better to just let them die if they were doing something they shouldn't be doing? Can always raise them after the fight is done if you need them later (or want to give them their shot at the end chest).

[Wutinni]

While I cant argue with the logic, it makes for bad relations with some guilds

If i tell someone to back off and they dont listen, then all bets are off

[Arianrhod]

Ah, i see the dilemma. This would be why I don't raid....would rather do without every uber item in the game than have to deal with guild drama

[binnsr]

Never done the Shroud, so not sure, but why heal someone who's taking unnecessary damage on the last fight in a quest? Wouldn't it be better to just let them die if they were doing something they shouldn't be doing? Can always raise them after the fight is done if you need them later (or want to give them their shot at the end chest).

In the parts of the shroud where you're fighting the Pit Fiend, a dead party member is transported to time-out away from the group. Death can be a serious, tactic-changing matter in the last couple of parts of the raid.

[direwolf33]

Never done the Shroud, so not sure, but why heal someone who's taking unnecessary damage on the last fight in a quest? Wouldn't it be better to just let them die if they were doing something they shouldn't be doing? Can always raise them after the fight is done if you need them later (or want to give them their shot at the end chest).

This would be perfectly acceptalble in some quests. However, the shroud can be such a difficult raid that you cannot afford to waste a party spot on someone who must be left dead and cannot then do their job.

[direwolf33]

Never done the Shroud, so not sure, but why heal someone who's taking unnecessary damage on the last fight in a quest? Wouldn't it be better to just let them die if they were doing something they shouldn't be doing? Can always raise them after the fight is done if you need them later (or want to give them their shot at the end chest).

This would be perfectly acceptable in some quests. However, the shroud can be such a difficult raid that you cannot afford to waste a party spot on someone who must be left dead and cannot then do their job.

[OrganGrinder]

The countdown begins, ya just know someones going to post with their uber rouge build, something thats obviously the exception to every rouge rule out there.....can't wait

[binnsr]

The countdown begins, ya just know someones going to post with their uber rouge build, something thats obviously the exception to every rouge rule out there.....can't wait

well, since you asked..

A composition for rouge for lip of the present invention is a composition for rouge for lip containing a volatile oil content, a water-repellent polymer soluble to the volatile oil content, powder, and a nonvolatile oil content having a compatibility with the volatile oil content, wherein the powder contained in 1 g of the composition has a total surface arm of 1 to 25 m

[Tap4black]

Originally posted by Wutinni
Your Hp is a serious setback, just as a locked door is to a Barbartian

Hey now! I'll have you know that my fully raged, 46 Str Evasion Barbarian with near 600 HP has an open lock skill of +37 and can pop those doors in the shroud just fine thank you

[Locathus]

It all depends on your strategy. Our guild beats down the Shroud every couple of days, and we usually take along 1-2 rogues. They are very useful during the quest if you know how to maximize their abilities.

[Eudimio]

Let me first say that player skill can almost always overcome class difficulties. That being said common sense must kick in somewhere. Rogues are capable of producing amazing damage, however they are simply not cut out to take on Raid bosses which can drop you in two swings. Clerics such as myself waste needless resources to keep Rogues up who decide to melee the Pit Fiend, due to the extremely short window of time to get that heal through.

Let the Barbs and fighters with 400+ hp stand toe to toe with the boss, while you range him from 30 feet away (still getting your sneak attack damange) while evading the blades and fireballs. Your Hp is a serious setback, just as a locked door is to a Barbartian

Wutinni,

Shouldn't you include rangers (lower base hitpoints), paladins (MAD), warforged (healing deficient), and drow and elves (lower constitution) in your melee exclusion? Rogues have the best dps in the shroud (with GTWF), followed by tempest rangers, followed by ANY character that has two-weapon fighting, then barbarians, then fighters.

You must like running with gimps.

Happy Hunting,
Nuckles.

[Yajerman01]

I havent ran the shroud with my rogue yet, however the versatility of a rogue is what makes them so unique. I can either melee or I can range, or I can heal support or cast support.

I do not take offense if I have a healer who does not wish me to melee, but point in fact is, if the healer does not wish me to melee, he might want to tell me before hand rather then stand there and keep casting heals on me, or get ****y and let me die.

An intelligent healer will tell me, "hey (insert name of rogue) your killing me on heals, can you back up and range or help me heal, PLEASE"

Quite often I find that people in groups get ****y because I am unable to mind read!

I try my best to watch my health and judge whether or not im better off doing another task, however, when I see that mass heals are being spammed and im unable to delineate whether that is a result of me or a cleric chossing to spam heals for easier health control i am no wiser unless the cleric says something.

So to the OP, if your not directing health issues then they are probably not any wiser without your POV. If you are telling them via mic or party chat and they ifgnore you, then yeah let them die, or ask for money up front if you feel the rogue is being problematic. You can get a sense of that within the first three parts anyway.

[Tallyn]

Yeah, I'm a 14 Rogue/2 Paladin, and I'm an exception to that rule.

When I'm buffed for Part 4 and Part 5, I usually have mid 300s HP with mid 60s to low 70s AC.

If you're a rogue and you have less than 300 HP though, you'll need to take a little care in how you are fighting the Pit Fiend. Most rogues cant go toe to toe with the Pit fiend without having to jump out and heal themselves up (most rogues have enough UMD for heal scrolls nowadays) every once in a while.

[Borror0]

Your Hp is a serious setback, just as a locked door is to a Barbartian

There are rogues with enough HP to attempt that. Improved Evasion goes a long way into making this possible. And they are tons of DPS when Borror is intimidating.

[Arianrhod]

If you're a rogue and you have less than 300 HP though, you'll need to take a little care in how you are fighting the Pit Fiend. Most rogues cant go toe to toe with the Pit fiend without having to jump out and heal themselves up (most rogues have enough UMD for heal scrolls nowadays) every once in a while.

That's kind of what I was getting at - when a good player is playing one of the "squishier" classes, and sees their helath starting to drop, they will usually back off and do something about it, so generally shouldn't be the cleric's concern in the first place. I can understand, though, that healers might get a bit more anxious in a special scenario like this one where letting someone die because they were supposed to be minding their own health can be a real problem.

[Angelus_dead]

Let me first say that player skill can almost always overcome class difficulties. That being said common sense must kick in somewhere. Rogues are capable of producing amazing damage, however they are simply not cut out to take on Raid bosses which can drop you in two swings. Clerics such as myself waste needless resources to keep Rogues up who decide to melee the Pit Fiend, due to the extremely short window of time to get that heal through.

Did you just say "that heal"?

Note for clerics for the shroud: Don't cast Heal on people fighting the pit fiend. It's stupid.

Note for rogues in the shroud: Go melee the pit fiend. His most important source of damage is Delayed Blast Fireball, which will only hit you 5% of the time for 50% damage. Wear your +6 con ring, greater false life belt, and Minos Legens, and you'll get healed for free in the splashover from the Mass Cures that any good clerics are casting.

[binnsr]

Did you just say "that heal"?

Note my opinion for clerics for the shroud: Don't cast Heal on people fighting the pit fiend. It's stupid.

Note my opinion for rogues in the shroud: Go melee the pit fiend. His most important source of damage is Delayed Blast Fireball, which will only hit you 5% of the time for 50% damage. Wear your +6 con ring, greater false life belt, and Minos Legens, and you'll get healed for free in the splashover from the Mass Cures that any good clerics are casting.

fixed that for you..

[Angelus_dead]

fixed that for you..

Thanks for the help!

Could you keep it up and go through every other sentence in this thread and paste "my opinion" into it? Please start with the OP!

[Eudimio]

Thanks for the help!

Could you keep it up and go through every other sentence in this thread and paste "my opinion" into it? Please start with the OP!

I think that's a bad idea Angelus. Isn't it assumed that everything we write here is our opinion? Your post was definately an exception to that because it was too logical. That can be confusing to some that may think it is instead a fact.

Happy Hunting,
Nuckles.