Suggestion about Rangers and Bow Damage

[Turial]

All us ranged characters are asking is for what we should rightly have in the first place, an equitable attack speed based on bab.

Couldn't have said it better.

[Thrudh]

All us ranged characters are asking is for what we should rightly have in the first place, an equitable attack speed based on bab.

Except that manyshot is currently BETTER than any melee attack... Again, you get comparable DPS, AT RANGE, on MULTIPLE monsters at the same time... That's not equitable...

So they'd have to make more changes than just make it an "always on stance". I'm not sure if that would be better... Always on, but less powerful, or only on for 20 seconds but super-powerful.

There have been many times that activating manyshot while kiting a sudden ambush of mobs has "saved the day" for my party. I don't know if I'd want to lose the super-ability I can use in an emergency to gain better average DPS all the time.

[Zuldar]

Except that manyshot is currently BETTER than any melee attack... Again, you get comparable DPS, AT RANGE, on MULTIPLE monsters at the same time... That's not equitable...

So they'd have to make more changes than just make it an "always on stance". I'm not sure if that would be better... Always on, but less powerful, or only on for 20 seconds but super-powerful.

There have been many times that activating manyshot while kiting a sudden ambush of mobs has "saved the day" for my party. I don't know if I'd want to lose the super-ability I can use in an emergency to gain better average DPS all the time.

So fix it like I keep saying. Manyshot while nice in theory does apply penalties to hit, so add those penalties. Though the point is moot in a way as ranged characters should have the same attack speed as a melee character to begin with, the only difference is manyshot allows you to make those attacks as a standard action rather then a full round action.

If what you are concerned about is the "apparent" overpowering of ranged attacks to melee attacks, you need not worry. Ranged attacks suffer from a lack of tactical feats, no power attack (big issue there), ammo requirement which can take up a considerable inventory space, and neither the ability to cause glancing blows, use a shield, or perform 10 attacks a round.

[GrayOldDruid]

I would like to see Auto-sniper shot, so that you "set it and forget it" - in middle of huge battle, its hard to remember to activate sniper shot when the timer runs out. Could see how that could be overpowered...

My suggestion for 'fixing' ranged rangers : Decrease timer on multi-shot. 20 seconds of multi-shot every 60 seconds wouldn't be so bad. Or give us some better Ammo (and a place to stack that ammo - Quiver). Yeah, you can FIND bane arrows and holy arrows, etc, but not enough to actually use those arrows often. 20 arrows of greater aberration bane last, what, One or Two encounters? Give us ability to either buy or create Frost Arrows. 100% returning Arrows, poison arrows... yeah, we can make Flame Arrows.... if we have a good UMD (which I finally do), but Carrying around specalized arrows for several scenarios takes up a TON of space.

Arcane Archer had potential, but just a +x free-to-create arrows kind of sucks. Plus, the AP cost for return is bad. Would be great to get Elemental Arrows with it... select your element and boom, arrows of that type.

[Issip]

No kidding! For 20 seconds, a Ranger can put out just as much dps as a melee... then he/she needs to wait another 1:40 to be useful again. Imagine this for the melee types... you hit your "okay, I'm going to swing my sword for a bit" button, and you have 20 seconds to do so. Then, for whatever reason (your arms get tired, or whatever), you can only get one attack per second-and-a-half. Then, 1:40 later, you can melee full speed again. *sigh*

More ppl would play ranged-type char's, and it could be a TON of fun. Rangers focused on ranging... bow-using rogues with sneak attack... fighters who specialize in bows... barbarian "mongol" builds... changing manyshot to a stance could really bring a lot more depth to the game.

I have a really hard time imagining a melee build that can come anywhere near the damage my ranger does during multishot, and I'm perplexed by all the "ranged combat is broken" comments. I won't go through the math on 4 arrows/multishot and all the damage that does, but I can easily watch a raged out barbarian go after a boss and give it 4-5 good whacks with a greataxe, then open up a multishot and have the boss in my face well before multishot expires (refer to previous pages for math, but it's easily 150+ damage per shot - on average, not on crits).

This is just assuming there is 1 mob. If there are say 5 or 50 then the advantage to the ranger is even greater due to improved precise shot, which is essentially always on. Even with cleave, great cleave and whirlwind I can't touch that with my fighters/barbarians. In most cases I find that the emergency that caused me to hit multishot is a pile of corpses by the time multishot wears off.

It is true that the Barbarian will have the aggro back shortly after the multishot wears off, and overall he will do more damage assuming he stays in melee range, but that's the trick - he can't do that damage from 50 yards, and if rangers could out-damage fighters and barbarians all the time from 50 yards away then melee would be completely senseless.

I still think ranged is nicely balanced as of Mod6, and I've never had so much fun playing my ranger. My only complaint is arrows in inventory - that is a huge mess and something that ranged oriented toons should not have to deal with.

Edit: Thinking about this - rangers come into their power finally at level 16. Leveling a ranger sucks, and I'd probably go through about 4 dragonshards changing the feats to make the ranger slightly less terrible at different levels (e.g. repeaters until lvl 12 then switching to longbows). So for the majority of the game content the ranger is still fairly underpowered. At lvl 16 you get your 4th multishot arrow and another feat (imp crit piercing for the good rapiers you've been saving up?). As they go up form level 16, however, an increase in damage of the sort originally suggested would make rangers seriously overpowered.

[EightyFour]

ONLY if you take away the Ranger requirement for this, does it work. Otherwise, you have barbarian/rogue/fighter builds that get wacked... er, nerfed. Make these enhancement lines available to any character with the manyshot feat... so call it IMPROVED MANYSHOT I, IMPROVED MANYSHOT II, IMPROVED MANYSHOT III and IMPROVED MANYSHOT IV. Much like any character that picks up Maximize for spellcasting gets the IMPROVED MAXIMIZE line of enhancements.

You have a point, in fact I know someone in my guild that has a build like that. I guess the real fixes should be held to the feats themselves as those seem to be the problem.

[Kraak]

Except that manyshot is currently BETTER than any melee attack... Again, you get comparable DPS, AT RANGE, on MULTIPLE monsters at the same time... That's not equitable...

So they'd have to make more changes than just make it an "always on stance". I'm not sure if that would be better... Always on, but less powerful, or only on for 20 seconds but super-powerful.

There have been many times that activating manyshot while kiting a sudden ambush of mobs has "saved the day" for my party. I don't know if I'd want to lose the super-ability I can use in an emergency to gain better average DPS all the time.

Tanks can intimidate (roll all the mobs to them) then cleave, and great cleave (with minimal timers). Then finish off the rest. Done with a vorpal or 2-hander this can be very effective. Also leaves the cleric with 1 person to heal. And to the follow on point, you can then trip, sunder, stun, or sap anyone of the individual mobs.

[EightyFour]

It's amazing to me too, since it's a ridiculous idea...

For 20 seconds every 2 minutes, my ranger can out DPS EVERYBODY... 4 arrows every shot, silver bow with Bow Strength, Improved Crit: Ranged, Improved Precise Shot so I can line up my enemies and hit ALL of them with all 4 arrows. Figure one of those is a crit, I'm probably doing 150-200 damage per set of 4 shots... to MULTIPLE monsters at the same time.

Oh, and it's all at range, so they can't hit me back!!!! (Maybe a spell-caster or two may throw a lightning bolt at me... Oh, I forgot, I have a huge reflex save and evasion... so never mind!)

Rangers totally rock when manyshot is active... Sure, I'd love to have it on all the time... But anyone who's ever had a high-level ranger has to admit that it would be ridiculously overpowered.

I have a level 13Ranger/2Fighter/1Rogue, I would consider that to be a high level ranger. I mean I could be wrong. With most of the high level content they are faster than you unless you have a haste on, than we are talking that you are slightly faster than them, enough to kite around, but some of your shot's don't even count if they are right up on you. While you are moving, the closer a mob gets, the less arrows you can fill them with, and I mean that as a bug. Also you have to consider room, if you are out in the vale I could see having plenty of room to not let something hit you, however if you are in a cramped cave your not going to have as much room to move around. Also I have to say that lining up shots of several mob's in a row is a rare thing. Normally they are grouped, so you can hit thru the middle, from the left, or the right, but your not going to hit everything.

Also I have to add, if it was me out DPSing everyone, that means I would have a majority of the agro. And if that's the case, that's mean's it is me running around with a mob full of monsters that all want me blocked in so they can smash me. I can see one not being a problem, but what happens when you have 8 in a cramped cave. I'm not saying that if your in a cramped cave you would even use your manyshot.

I guess the point I'm getting at here is that maybe re tooling manyshot is not the answer, but it's an option.

I also just want to state that when I play a malee character, I look at the dice and say to myself, "was that a 20 I just rolled, I could swear I just saw one" on my ranger it's "Oh, I rolled a 20 I wonder what the next roll well be."

What I'm seeing here is that people have problems with bow use, it's slow and doesn't put out the DPS that a one hander can with a similar weapon type. Between a +5 bow user with compairable stats to a +5 long sword user, the damage should be the same, but it isn't, and that's where it seems most of the problem is to me. And I guess in that case you could say that a malee has to get into the fight, were a ranged character does not, so that may balance it out in our heads, but that would mean ranged characters never die because they never get into the fight. Yea I understand they may take less damage over time. But I also have to say that a bow user can not rip of a stuning blow arrow and than his arrows crit everytime they hit that target. I can't trip a guy with an arrow, the one option I have is to use a bow with comparable abilities on it, and those abilitys don't increase with my strength or my dex.

But for those that just want to have fun playing a ranged character, do you really want them in your group if you know they are going to be doing less damage than a malee character? I know there are several people that don't mind, but it makes it harder for a ranged character to find a group. How many people look at a ranger joining the group and wonder if he's a bow ranger or a two handed, I'm not say that there are not bad tanks out their, but there seems to be more question when it comes to the ranger than it does with a paliden, fighter, or barb.

So here's another idea to throw into the hat, how about something other than manyshot for bow users that everyone can get. How about default abilities like trip and sunder. And feats like stunning blow. Or just speed up the RoF, that would make me happy.

[EightyFour]

I have a really hard time imagining a melee build that can come anywhere near the damage my ranger does during multishot, and I'm perplexed by all the "ranged combat is broken" comments. I won't go through the math on 4 arrows/multishot and all the damage that does, but I can easily watch a raged out barbarian go after a boss and give it 4-5 good whacks with a greataxe, then open up a multishot and have the boss in my face well before multishot expires (refer to previous pages for math, but it's easily 150+ damage per shot - on average, not on crits).

So I would have to say without crits. you average about 35-40 damage on a normal shot?
Which means your character has about a 36 STR?

[Kraak]

I believe the number quoted was non-criting while manyshotting. So 4 arrows. A lot of mobs come in groups from 4-6. My warchanter - 2 hander non-crits for 42-50 a shot. With cleave, that gets you 128 at the low end to 300 hp of damage at the high end for non-crits. Followed up by another great cleave. That's some serious dps. timer is 10-15 seconds. So I pop again for 128-300 hp of damage (depending on the size of the mob). While this is distributed versus localized on a single target. Thats still a pretty **** powerful attack. Then add in stunning blow, and trip, and things can get out of hand pretty quickly. All in all the balance is still close but, definitely sides on melee.

[Turial]

What I'm seeing here is that people have problems with bow use, it's slow and doesn't put out the DPS that a one hander can with a similar weapon type. Between a +5 bow user with compairable stats to a +5 long sword user, the damage should be the same, but it isn't, and that's where it seems most of the problem is to me.

A longbow is mechanically similar to a warhammer rather than a longsword. The expanded crit range of a longsword will win out against the longbow.

[EightyFour]

A longbow is mechanically similar to a warhammer rather than a longsword. The expanded crit range of a longsword will win out against the longbow.

Yeah, I would agree with that. Guess I just thought of that on the back end. But I still think that a warhammer is going to do more damage than a longbow well.

[bobbryan2]

A longbow is mechanically similar to a warhammer rather than a longsword. The expanded crit range of a longsword will win out against the longbow.

The expanded crit multiplier of the longbow will negate the expanded crit range of the longsword.

As soon as you can attack as fast with a bow as you can at melee, ranged with be fixed. The problem now isn't the amount of damage done with a bow, but the fact that you can't attack very fast.

[Kraak]

The expanded crit multiplier of the longbow will negate the expanded crit range of the longsword.

As soon as you can attack as fast with a bow as you can at melee, ranged with be fixed. The problem now isn't the amount of damage done with a bow, but the fact that you can't attack very fast.

Pretty much whatever I've said - aligns, or was intended to align with this point. Simplicity in itself. Thanks Grig.

[EightyFour]

Is there anyone here that disagrees that bow use animations should be sped up?

Or disagree that rapid shot feat should be faster than the standard animation?

[jjflanigan]

I personally love the idea of making manyshot a stance. I realize it wouldn't play nicely with some multi-class builds...but it's not a multi-class feat, and there are a lot of things like that so I don't really see that as being a negative.

As it stands with current speeds -- at BaB 16 you can get 53 shots / minute with a bow and rapid shot (47 without rapid shot) (not using manyshot) and 89 attacks / minute with a standard 1h weapon attack. So we could still be bumped up in speed a good amount and remain behind melee combat speed if they so desire.

As a side note, if you take both rapid shot and quick draw, you can get your thrown weapon rate of attack to 56 shots / minute

[EightyFour]

Anyone else see a problem with rapid shot only given you one more shot every 10 seconds?

[Mad_Bombardier]

Anyone else see a problem with rapid shot only given you one more shot every 10 seconds?

Yes. At the very least, it should be +1 shot every 6 seconds (and a melee attack animation is 3 seconds). But, Ranged combat uses a different scale and Rapid Shot is applied as a % bonus.

[Turial]

So how many attacks can one currently get with a repeater?

I know at one point repeaters firing at the same rate as other ranged weapons was pretty broken and led to the whole everyone playing repeater builds in beta and breaking the game as far as ranged combat went.

[Coldin]

So how many attacks can one currently get with a repeater?

I know at one point repeaters firing at the same rate as other ranged weapons was pretty broken and led to the whole everyone playing repeater builds in beta and breaking the game as far as ranged combat went.

Eh, repeaters are all still pretty broken, especially once they made it so Rapid Shot and Rapid Reload affected the reloading times.