Suggestion about Rangers and Bow Damage

[Draiden]

I think a bow power attack is a reasonable idea as long as the animations are sped up.

It's amazing to me how many people think manyshot should be a stance. It makes me think that there might be some kind of programming issue that we don't know about that prevents Turbine from doing it.

No kidding! For 20 seconds, a Ranger can put out just as much dps as a melee... then he/she needs to wait another 1:40 to be useful again. Imagine this for the melee types... you hit your "okay, I'm going to swing my sword for a bit" button, and you have 20 seconds to do so. Then, for whatever reason (your arms get tired, or whatever), you can only get one attack per second-and-a-half. Then, 1:40 later, you can melee full speed again. *sigh*

More ppl would play ranged-type char's, and it could be a TON of fun. Rangers focused on ranging... bow-using rogues with sneak attack... fighters who specialize in bows... barbarian "mongol" builds... changing manyshot to a stance could really bring a lot more depth to the game.

[Eudimio]

I was thinking that rangers should get a feat called something like Improved Bow Strength that would maybe triple the damage you get from their strength stat, maybe make it a level 11 or 13 feat so that only rangers can get it. It might help bow rangers get back into the game? What does everyone else think about this idea, good or maybe something similar that could work?

Alright, horrible idea as is, but you may be on to something. What about a feat chain that replaces strength damage with a damage increase based on your dexterity?

[EightyFour]

Alright, horrible idea as is, but you may be on to something. What about a feat chain that replaces strength damage with a damage increase based on your dexterity?

That would be a good idea I think, I mean it would suck up a few feats which would be hard on rangers but I could maybe see a feat and an enhancement chain or two feats and an enhancement chain. I just thik a feat chain would make it harder to get other feats as well. But I can see it as a trade off for dumping STR and going all DEX, so I could see if working with one or two feats or an enhancement chain, but I think if it was more than 2 feats I think it maybe a bit to much.

Also I think about all those rangers out there that worked to put points into that stat to make there bow damage better. I think it needs to be something that balances between characters that put points into strength, the rangers that are mostly dex, and new rangers that are built.

[Kraak]

/not signed
/vote against


If manyshot becomes a stance, then my current ranged Barb/Ranger 14/2 becomes useless, as you can not rage and be in a stance at the same time. Reducing the timer would be much better imo - to either 1 min, or 1:30.

[bobbryan2]

Rangers already get Bow Strength... this basically means that no character can give worthwhile damage with bows unless they have at least 1 level in ranger.

Making it a ranger only feat would only make that problem worse. I have no problem with ranged combat being better, but I do have problems with Ranger's ranged combat extending their gap with other guilds.

[Zuldar]

/not signed
/vote against


If manyshot becomes a stance, then my current ranged Barb/Ranger 14/2 becomes useless, as you can not rage and be in a stance at the same time. Reducing the timer would be much better imo - to either 1 min, or 1:30.

Technically manyshot isn't a stance, but rather just a normal form of attack. As such while it should be a toggle, it shouldn't be broken by things such as casting and rage.

I suppose an alternative to balance it would be to put power attack on a 2 minute timer with a 20 second duration hehe. How many people would complain about that though.

[EightyFour]

OK, so some people think that the feat idea is not so good and some think it is good. But so far I still haven't seen anyone complain about speeding up the shooting speed.

Also I personally would take 1 min of manyshot with a minute cool down would make me a lot happier. I can't say that I think it's a perfect solution, but it seems it would be easy to do. Maybe not easy to decide on what the timer duration should be to find a balance, and what the developers think of as balanced I prob. wouldn't agree with, but it would be something easy to change.

It just seems to me that at least one thing that most don't have a problem with or are for is increasing the ranger rate of fire.
I just hope when a change is made it's made in a realistic way and not a way that puts together something strange. For example Examining if you had 6 rangers all in one group and you had one mob running at them and they could take it out before the target reached them, well that's not realistic to me. Normally there is more than one target.

As to making it a stance that breaks on rage, I don't see that as realistic in a real world situation, someone can be enraged and still take down targets with a gun, why not with a bow?

[Kraak]

Most of the toggle feats are stances - CE, Resilience, PA, Precision, etc. Improve Precise Shot is one of the exceptions, if they made Many Shot a non-stance toggle feat, and I could rage, Improve Precise Shot, and Many Shot (like I can now) then I'd have no issue with this. Although, I think if I had Many Shot on all the time (even with or without IPS, locking out), I wouldn't need IPS. Just crank on the mower and cut the lawn. A marginal increase to shot speed and reduce the cool down timer to 1 min would probably best.

[EightyFour]

Most of the toggle feats are stances - CE, Resilience, PA, Precision, etc. Improve Precise Shot is one of the exceptions, if they made Many Shot a non-stance toggle feat, and I could rage, Improve Precise Shot, and Many Shot (like I can now) then I'd have no issue with this. Although, I think if I had Many Shot on all the time (even with or without IPS, locking out), I wouldn't need IPS. Just crank on the mower and cut the lawn. A marginal increase to shot speed and reduce the cool down timer to 1 min would probably best.

Yeah I'm thinking your right, at least for an easy fix of things anyway. But you could always make it so Many Shot and Precise Shot couldn't be running at the same time. I could just imagine a dancing sphere and a ranger like that. I can't even imagine the agro that would generate. You would generate so much agro, their mom's would agro you.

[Kraak]

yeah and so, to your OP. I agree that bow's could use an uplift, but not sure what would be easy for the dev's to balance and implement. A lot of great ideas here. The tricky part is keep the bowyer's from turning into 1920's gangsters with tommy guns. Which I think we agree on. Anyway, thanks for bringing this up. As far as improving shot speed, applying str to damage, and making manyshot more available:

/signed

[Zenako]

How about this, (borrowed from the Bards...)

Extended Manyshot Enhancements. (Like the Extended Song Enhancements)

First step (2 AP) - Many shot goes from 20 seconds on /100 seconds off to 30 seconds on/ 90 seconds off

Second step (4 AP) - goes to 40 seconds on / 80 seconds off

Third Step (6 AP) - goes to 50 seconds on / 70 seconds off

Forth step (8 AP) - goes to 60 on / 60 off

Step one Req would be level 9 Ranger
Step two would be level 12 Ranger
Step three would be level 15 ranger
Step four will be level 18 ranger...

Of just time them into the steps where your manyshot increases....

Same mechanic, just changes the timer...

[Nirvana]

It's been about 2 years since the first MS rework suggestion came out.

Didn't happen and not gonna happen. Face the fact.

[EightyFour]

How about this, (borrowed from the Bards...)

Extended Manyshot Enhancements. (Like the Extended Song Enhancements)

First step (2 AP) - Many shot goes from 20 seconds on /100 seconds off to 30 seconds on/ 90 seconds off

Second step (4 AP) - goes to 40 seconds on / 80 seconds off

Third Step (6 AP) - goes to 50 seconds on / 70 seconds off

Forth step (8 AP) - goes to 60 on / 60 off

Step one Req would be level 9 Ranger
Step two would be level 12 Ranger
Step three would be level 15 ranger
Step four will be level 18 ranger...

Of just time them into the steps where your manyshot increases....

Same mechanic, just changes the timer...

That doesn't sound like a bad idea. I could go for that, but if we had to spend enhancements on it feel better if it was more like:

First step (1 AP) - Many shot goes from 20 seconds on /100 seconds off to 30 seconds on/ 90 seconds off

Second step (2 AP) - goes to 40 seconds on / 80 seconds off

Third Step (4 AP) - goes to 50 seconds on / 70 seconds off

Forth step (6 AP) - goes to 60 on / 60 off

Level 6, 9, 12, and 15. Or even 3, 6, 9, and 12.
With this idea it would take some time to balance out. But it's a good idea to start on and see how things work out.

[EightyFour]

It's been about 2 years since the first MS rework suggestion came out.

Didn't happen and not gonna happen. Face the fact.

You have to realize that a game of this scale takes a lot of time to build and a large team of people to work on it.
When something is not in the fore front it gets put on the back burner, it gets done when there is more time.

The idea's here not only allow the developers to get ideas and different point of views, but also to see what it is that is most bothering players. They may pull from these ideas or make a rework themselves. It might be on a list of things to get done, but things like getting the Monk done and introducing guild housing, Half-Elves, Half-Orcs, and Druids, as well as come up with several ideas for the level 18 level cap raise, the mob's they are introducing have to be decided on, the concept art has to be done, the textures, the modeling of those mob's as well as the modeling and texturing of the next quests, and than the animation has to be done for it, it has to be programmed in, debugged for compile problems, alpha tested, released on Risea, fix major bugs from Risea.

There are a few things that have to be done before any of the older stuff needs to be revamped. Just by speeding up the animation of the ranger it has to be re-keyed and the rate of fire has to be reprogrammed. With the many shot it's already in place, so I imagine it would be easier to tool around with that, but it has to get on a list first and than given a priority and the devlopers have to have enough time and people to start changing it, also when they do change it it's going to be some time before they can change it again so they have to do there best to get it right, and even if they make a mistake and have to change it right away that takes time and effort away from other projects that are due by certain dates.

So it takes awhile for these changes, but with enough people interested in them we can let the developers know that this is an issue and it should be addressed at some point.

[Kraak]

Eighty - had another idea about how to easily address manyshot within current (percieved) coding constraints. Reduce the manyshot active timer to 10 seconds, and reduce cooldown to say 30. This would still address the burstiness of how manyshot should work, and still make it more available. But not to the point where you can roll the mobs into a circle and weedwhack them for a full 20. What do you think?


BTW - not sure if this was suggested before or not - just came to me and wanted to post it.

[EightyFour]

Eighty - had another idea about how to easily address manyshot within current (percieved) coding constraints. Reduce the manyshot active timer to 10 seconds, and reduce cooldown to say 30. This would still address the burstiness of how manyshot should work, and still make it more available. But not to the point where you can roll the mobs into a circle and weedwhack them for a full 20. What do you think?


BTW - not sure if this was suggested before or not - just came to me and wanted to post it.

No I don't believe that anyone had this idea, but it sounds like a good one to me. I know that I could deal with that. I personal would rather have a 10 second burst fallowed by a 10 second cool down, but I could go 10 seconds than 30 seconds.

[Draiden]

How about this, (borrowed from the Bards...)

Extended Manyshot Enhancements. (Like the Extended Song Enhancements)

First step (2 AP) - Many shot goes from 20 seconds on /100 seconds off to 30 seconds on/ 90 seconds off

Second step (4 AP) - goes to 40 seconds on / 80 seconds off

Third Step (6 AP) - goes to 50 seconds on / 70 seconds off

Forth step (8 AP) - goes to 60 on / 60 off

Step one Req would be level 9 Ranger
Step two would be level 12 Ranger
Step three would be level 15 ranger
Step four will be level 18 ranger...

Of just time them into the steps where your manyshot increases....

Same mechanic, just changes the timer...

ONLY if you take away the Ranger requirement for this, does it work. Otherwise, you have barbarian/rogue/fighter builds that get wacked... er, nerfed. Make these enhancement lines available to any character with the manyshot feat... so call it IMPROVED MANYSHOT I, IMPROVED MANYSHOT II, IMPROVED MANYSHOT III and IMPROVED MANYSHOT IV. Much like any character that picks up Maximize for spellcasting gets the IMPROVED MAXIMIZE line of enhancements.

[Zenako]

ONLY if you take away the Ranger requirement for this, does it work. Otherwise, you have barbarian/rogue/fighter builds that get wacked... er, nerfed. Make these enhancement lines available to any character with the manyshot feat... so call it IMPROVED MANYSHOT I, IMPROVED MANYSHOT II, IMPROVED MANYSHOT III and IMPROVED MANYSHOT IV. Much like any character that picks up Maximize for spellcasting gets the IMPROVED MAXIMIZE line of enhancements.

Given the general wisdom I often see on the boards about the efficiency of ranged attacks I would be a little surprised to find many non rangers with Manyshot, since you need both Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot and a 17 DEX minimum. I am sure there are a few, but I have never met any that I can recall. Most of the Fighter rich ranged attackers I have seen were using Repeaters with special attacks (para, banish, etc).

As to them getting whacked, aka nerfed, how so. Nothing they currently do would be any worse than it currently is, and there are a number of feats which get class specific enhancements to boost the effect of that feat ----toughness anyone, metamagics? Keeping it to rangers would be consistent with the current paradigm. Can argue about the merits of the paradigm, but it would be consistent.

[Thrudh]

It's amazing to me how many people think manyshot should be a stance. It makes me think that there might be some kind of programming issue that we don't know about that prevents Turbine from doing it.

It's amazing to me too, since it's a ridiculous idea...

For 20 seconds every 2 minutes, my ranger can out DPS EVERYBODY... 4 arrows every shot, silver bow with Bow Strength, Improved Crit: Ranged, Improved Precise Shot so I can line up my enemies and hit ALL of them with all 4 arrows. Figure one of those is a crit, I'm probably doing 150-200 damage per set of 4 shots... to MULTIPLE monsters at the same time.

Oh, and it's all at range, so they can't hit me back!!!! (Maybe a spell-caster or two may throw a lightning bolt at me... Oh, I forgot, I have a huge reflex save and evasion... so never mind!)

Rangers totally rock when manyshot is active... Sure, I'd love to have it on all the time... But anyone who's ever had a high-level ranger has to admit that it would be ridiculously overpowered.

[Zuldar]

It's amazing to me too, since it's a ridiculous idea...

For 20 seconds every 2 minutes, my ranger can out DPS EVERYBODY... 4 arrows every shot, silver bow with Bow Strength, Improved Crit: Ranged, Improved Precise Shot so I can line up my enemies and hit ALL of them with all 4 arrows. Figure one of those is a crit, I'm probably doing 150-200 damage per set of 4 shots... to MULTIPLE monsters at the same time.

Oh, and it's all at range, so they can't hit me back!!!! (Maybe a spell-caster or two may throw a lightning bolt at me... Oh, I forgot, I have a huge reflex save and evasion... so never mind!)

Rangers totally rock when manyshot is active... Sure, I'd love to have it on all the time... But anyone who's ever had a high-level ranger has to admit that it would be ridiculously overpowered.

Manyshot would hardly be overpowered if they had followed the Player's Handbook. A ranged character is already supposed to fire off as many attacks per round as a melee character, manyshot simply allows a ranged character to perform these attacks as a standard action, albeit at a penalty to hit.

Now I suppose I could see manyshot being left as is if the ranged attack speed wasn't so far out of proportion to what it should be. But if they don't modify the attack speed to what it should be ala pnp; then making manyshot a toggle, with the penalty to hit, is the best option.

All us ranged characters are asking is for what we should rightly have in the first place, an equitable attack speed based on bab.