Suggestion about Rangers and Bow Damage

[Yaga_Nub]

sorry for double post

leave it to Milo......

[EightyFour]

Rangers who Kite Mobs away from the group are either Really good or Really bad. Neither needs you to go running off after the mob thats chasing him.

Doubling or even Tripling Bow Str enh would be a serious imbalance.... witha 3xCrit multiplier on bows and a decent str (Many have 24-26 str) your talking about an extra 24-72 points of damage PER Arrow lol.... I know rangers that already Crit for close to 100 points against their favorite enemies......

1d10(Silver Longbow) +3(Arrows) +8(STR) +9(Fav Enemy) +2(Elf Bow Enh) +2(Rams) = 34 x3 =102 Points on a Crit

Now add in Holy Damage and May SHot.....

With the Proposed Change
1d10(Silver Longbow) +3(Arrows) +24(STR) +9(Fav Enemy) +2(Elf Bow Enh) +2(Rams) = 50 x3 =150 Points on a Crit

No thanks...... Let em work on Tempest 2 and other more interesting things.

OK, 5 damage from Silver Longbow + 3 arrows + (24STR) +7 + 4(Rams) = 19 x 3 + 57 points on a crit.
Every ranger is not an elf so you have to remove that, and favored enemy, it's not always like your fighting your favored enemy and even if you are you should be able to take it down faster.
So Holy Damage and Many shot, 6 damage from Holy + original 19 = 25 x 3 = 75 on a crit. (rolling a 19-20 90 times in a row(17-20) with silver bow)) = 225 damage per shot. However if you are not as lucky as some and you can't roll that many 20's in a row, and maybe roll one 20 out of three, that's 75 + 25 + 25 = 125 per shot or more likely 25 + 25 + 25 = 75 damage.

However I don't think there are many people carrying that many Holy arrows to constantly use manyshot.
I would say a times 3 damage from strength would work out,
5 damage(Silver LongBow) + 3 arrows + 21(24STR) + 4(Rams) = 33 x 3 = 99 points on a crit.
99 points damage with manyshot, with one crit and two hits = 165 points of damage, two crits = 231 points of damage, and with an amazing three crits an amazing 297 points of damage.

OK, maybe 3 times might be a bit much with manyshot, but i've said that. Turning it off when you turn on manyshot would be a good idea, but for a regular hit it seems fair.

OK, so how about x3 damage from strength or dexterity but doesn't apply to critical hits?
Or if everyone would think better of it, that maybe x3 is to much, what about x2?

[Aesop]

84 why do you keep listing Ram's as +1 damage? its +2 Str and +2 damage
just curious

Aesop

[Draiden]

Actually, something I was going to save for a new thread, but my current archer build is a barb14/ranger2. This build has bow strength, imp crit ranged, precision, imp precision, rapid shot, manyshot and BARBARIAN IMP CRIT RANGE... This nets the crit range at lvl 16 from 17-20 when raging and REALLY high str due to raging (especially all 3 rages). The fact that this is THE most bow dps build out there saddens me.

The fix? Give Rangers either enhancements or granted feats that increase their bow crit range (and don't say the Deepwoods Sniper is it- cuz that's not enough).

[EightyFour]

84 why do you keep listing Ram's as +1 damage? its +2 Str and +2 damage
just curious

Aesop

I forgot that it does +2 damage due to size too, my mistake, I'll make the corrections.

[QuantumFX]

Ranged Rangers don't need a feat to triple their bonus damage from STR. They need to stop treating STR as a dumpstat.

Make ranged combat work more like it's P&P counterpart and then you're going to see ranged combat become more than just a niche combat style.

[EightyFour]

Ranged Rangers don't need a feat to triple their bonus damage from STR. They need to stop treating STR as a dumpstat.

Make ranged combat work more like it's P&P counterpart and then you're going to see ranged combat become more than just a niche combat style.

I don't think all rangers treat there STR as a dump stat, when I was thinking about this I was considering a ranger as have a STR of 34 or a dex of 34, even though I know there are ways to get it higher, I didn't take stats above 34 into consideration.

But I'm interested in knowing more details on what you think the P&P counterpart has that the DDO version does not have?
Are you speaking of the attack speed or something else?

[Emili]

Ranged Rangers don't need a feat to triple their bonus damage from STR. They need to stop treating STR as a dumpstat.

Make ranged combat work more like it's P&P counterpart and then you're going to see ranged combat become more than just a niche combat style.

Actually I do not think many ranged rangers did treat it as a dump-stat but more as a secondary, I think the typical ranger built to actually range has a str of 22-28 str. While dex may be thier primary str is far from a dump stat like cha may typically is on many a fighter or barb. Then there is the real reason for aiming the high dex... that is the to-hit and the ac of a ranger. It's not surprising many ranged base rangers prior to last mod has an extreme high dex. With no - whatsoever - attack sequence bonus attached to ranged attack at all - base to-hit was it... then the added attraction of managing a decent AC out of dex was the other perk. Let's face it... if it were not for favored enemy plus a possible elf ranged enhancement rangers even the dex based ones would be rather thin in stat - much akin to pally in a sense... Str Dex Con and Wis all have some bearing on the class... the typical ranged build at lvl 16 looks like this before buffing Dex 30-36, Str 22-28, Con 18-24 then Wis 16-20 and they may level off Int 10 just to assure they're not tossing skill points out. Now if you went below 30 dex in the past you'd start to see miss, miss, miss rolls too often - thus countering really any real extra you'd get from a higher str...

[gpk]

84 why do you keep listing Ram's as +1 damage? its +2 Str and +2 damage
just curious

Aesop

Actually Ram's Might is +2 str and +3 damage for my lev 15 ranger, +4 total damage for a 1 hander.

[GlassCannon]

Actually I do not think many ranged rangers did treat it as a dump-stat but more as a secondary, I think the typical ranger built to actually range has a str of 22-28 str. While dex may be thier primary str is far from a dump stat like cha may typically is on many a fighter or barb. Then there is the real reason for aiming the high dex... that is the to-hit and the ac of a ranger. It's not surprising many ranged base rangers prior to last mod has an extreme high dex. With no - whatsoever - attack sequence bonus attached to ranged attack at all - base to-hit was it... then the added attraction of managing a decent AC out of dex was the other perk. Let's face it... if it were not for favored enemy plus a possible elf ranged enhancement rangers even the dex based ones would be rather thin in stat - much akin to pally in a sense... Str Dex Con and Wis all have some bearing on the class... the typical ranged build at lvl 16 looks like this before buffing Dex 30-36, Str 22-28, Con 18-24 then Wis 16-20 and they may level off Int 10 just to assure they're not tossing skill points out. Now if you went below 30 dex in the past you'd start to see miss, miss, miss rolls too often - thus countering really any real extra you'd get from a higher str...

My Ranged Rangers all started with 10-12 STR.

They max out at 38 DEX currently(that is, if they pull the incredibly elusive +3 DEX tome...), or 40 with Exceptional DEX 2. They all 3 use Repeaters and finesse weapons.

My Tempest build was structured for balanced STR, DEX and CON, so is closer to what you called 'normal', but will have a hard time hitting things in later life, much like tanks do.

My Main bbn1/rgr15 is 37 DEX currently(+2 tome on her, Shroud ingredients are too tedious to acquire), 20 STR(+6 item, Ram's Might, no tome), 16 CON(+4 item, +2 tome), 10 INT, 20 WIS(+5 item, +1 tome) 10 CHA... yeah, I messed it up a little. She took 37 seconds to build, from Character Generation screen to Feat Selection finalization.

[EightyFour]

Actually Ram's Might is +2 str and +3 damage for my lev 15 ranger, +4 total damage for a 1 hander.

Yeah I noticed that, it's not what the spell says, but it seems to be what comes out of it, didn't know if it was a bug, something I missed, or what it was, so I left it out. But now that I see a second person has it also I can add that part in.

[Wu_Jen]

Fix ranged ROF to = melee ROA. Problem fixed no trippling, quintupling etc needed.

If a ranged attacker pulls a MOB and starts kiting it around, I leave him/her to it. I figure if they pull it then they can deal with it. If I see their lifeless corpse on the ground a few minutes later then I will kill the mob, or at least attempt to, then take their stone to the nearest shrine.

Let them continue to do this time and time again. Either A) They will learn to let someone else get inital aggro or B) Their equipment will soon break and I won't have to worry about them pulling too much.

Smart ranged combatants know to either try to initally kill a MOB by manyshot etc, cripple/slowburst so that the mob can't get to them or curse/para and contain the MOB.

They will learn with enough deaths, theirs or the MOBs, otherwise they are playing under the influence and friends don't let friends play drunk~!

[QuantumFX]

I don't think all rangers treat there STR as a dump stat, when I was thinking about this I was considering a ranger as have a STR of 34 or a dex of 34, even though I know there are ways to get it higher, I didn't take stats above 34 into consideration.

But I'm interested in knowing more details on what you think the P&P counterpart has that the DDO version does not have?
Are you speaking of the attack speed or something else?

Most of the "Ranged Ranger" builds that wind up in the ranger forums wind up with the "Don't use STR as a dumpstat" suggestions right off the bat. (FYI: I think both DEX/Finesse and STR rangers have their places in DDO. )

As to what I see as different between DDO and P&P: Attack speed and bad implementation of the feats.

I have a ranger that hits 36STR and 30 DEX and the crits from a silver longbow are just amazing. (average 122pts of crit damage on the Pit Fiend before the holy damage.) From a base 1d10 weapon that's just fine for the damage output per strike. The problem is that if we're standing still we should be able to do it WAY more often than we do now.

Here's my take from the thread in the ranger forums.

My version of manyshot is based on my P&P group's implementation of manyshot though. We think the "standard action" is actually an "attack standard action" otherwise there's no benefit. Though we make loading a manyshot a move action unless the archer has quickdraw.

[EightyFour]

Most of the "Ranged Ranger" builds that wind up in the ranger forums wind up with the "Don't use STR as a dumpstat" suggestions right off the bat. (FYI: I think both DEX/Finesse and STR rangers have their places in DDO. )

As to what I see as different between DDO and P&P: Attack speed and bad implementation of the feats.

I have a ranger that hits 36STR and 30 DEX and the crits from a silver longbow are just amazing. (average 122pts of crit damage on the Pit Fiend before the holy damage.) From a base 1d10 weapon that's just fine for the damage output per strike. The problem is that if we're standing still we should be able to do it WAY more often than we do now.

Here's my take from the thread in the ranger forums.

My version of manyshot is based on my P&P group's implementation of manyshot though. We think the "standard action" is actually an "attack standard action" otherwise there's no benefit. Though we make loading a manyshot a move action unless the archer has quickdraw.

I think that in the post you made on the ranger forums makes a lot of sense. I think that I would be happier if the animations were faster to equal melee attack animations. Also the manyshot and pecise shot I wouldn't mind those changes.

However the Spring Attack and Shot on the run points I would disagree with, not because there bad ideas. They are good idea's and would work very well, but I think they would only have worked if that's how it was on opening day. To have everyone take Shot on the Run or Spring Attack just to play how they do now would be seen as the developers coming out with a huge nerf bat and I think we would lose a lot of players. And we would lose them because I don't think people like large changes like that. I believe when they changed the enhancements line people freaked out, but some adapted, new players came, and some got used to it. But we took a hit in player population, I think something like that would be a even bigger hit, and those players that we kept from the enhancement line change might decide that it's to much and take off. Sorry to say but this game depends on players to pay for the changes and updates. So as to your last point I disagree with those changes.

[Wu_Jen]

There used to be a ranged power attack. It was even in the compendium for a bit. Don't know why it was never added as a feat. That would help a bit as well. Same as power attack -5 to hit and +5 dmg for ranged attacks.

I agree though, I would like to see manyshot get changed to more closely resemble its PnP counterpart. I.e. make it a stance instead of the every 2 min thing it is now.

[QuantumFX]

However the Spring Attack and Shot on the run points I would disagree with, not because there bad ideas. They are good idea's and would work very well, but I think they would only have worked if that's how it was on opening day. To have everyone take Shot on the Run or Spring Attack just to play how they do now would be seen as the developers coming out with a huge nerf bat and I think we would lose a lot of players. And we would lose them because I don't think people like large changes like that. I believe when they changed the enhancements line people freaked out, but some adapted, new players came, and some got used to it. But we took a hit in player population, I think something like that would be a even bigger hit, and those players that we kept from the enhancement line change might decide that it's to much and take off. Sorry to say but this game depends on players to pay for the changes and updates. So as to your last point I disagree with those changes.

Spring Attack/SotR already slow down your number of attacks (the people who use it to get "more attacks" are actually breaking the animation chain to switch from the slow animations to a more reasonable speed. You don't need SA to do this though.) the major difference is that your running speed will slow down during the attack animation. For running up and beating on something it won't make a difference. Turbine would still have to fix the issues that they have with running foes to make it a viable feat chain for chasing down baddies. (IMHO I think the issue is in the order that the server calculates things.) They'll also have an excuse to ditch the unreasonable +300% striding items that mobs have.

[Zuldar]

Three times the damage would be a little extreme. Perhaps 1.5 times wouldn't be unreasonable, seeing as it's a two-handed weapon.

Really though, bow damage isn't the problem, it's the attack speed. The solution would be to have manyshot work as intended in the PH.

The way it should work is as a toggle, providing additional arrows based on your BAB, and a decreased to-hit based on the number of arrows fired. This is especially true seeing as manyshot is supposed to be a standard action, meaning that you should be able to move your full movement speed and still fire your alloted arrows. Though seeing as DDO is real time that becomes slightly less relevant in practice though the spirit of the feat remains.

Another alternative would be to turn rapid shot into both a passive and an active, the passive providing the speed boost, and the active working as a toggle ala PH by providing two arrows both at -2 to strike.

A last option would be to allow a ranged character to quickly (key word there) fire off their alloted attacks in a row with a slight reload time between volleys. The reload animation could also be used when shooting and moving at the same time to prevent people from skipping it, though the shot on the run feat could be used to eliminate or reduce the animation while moving.

[EightyFour]

There used to be a ranged power attack. It was even in the compendium for a bit. Don't know why it was never added as a feat. That would help a bit as well. Same as power attack -5 to hit and +5 dmg for ranged attacks.

I agree though, I would like to see manyshot get changed to more closely resemble its PnP counterpart. I.e. make it a stance instead of the every 2 min thing it is now.

I think a bow power attack is a reasonable idea as long as the animations are sped up.

It's amazing to me how many people think manyshot should be a stance. It makes me think that there might be some kind of programming issue that we don't know about that prevents Turbine from doing it.

[EightyFour]

Spring Attack/SotR already slow down your number of attacks (the people who use it to get "more attacks" are actually breaking the animation chain to switch from the slow animations to a more reasonable speed. You don't need SA to do this though.) the major difference is that your running speed will slow down during the attack animation. For running up and beating on something it won't make a difference. Turbine would still have to fix the issues that they have with running foes to make it a viable feat chain for chasing down baddies. (IMHO I think the issue is in the order that the server calculates things.) They'll also have an excuse to ditch the unreasonable +300% striding items that mobs have.

Well it doesn't sound as bad as I thought the first time I read it, however I still disagree, and all my melee's have Spring Attack or Shot of the Run. The reason I disagree is because you are right, the mob's would have to go back to the way they were before they were "improved" that way we wouldn't have the glitch where you are bumping into the mob's butt, but unable to hit it. I personally hate running mob's, why can't I run and become invunerable to attack? But to far off the subject here, I guess it could be a good idea, but I'm just looking at changing one thing and hoping it doesn't effect to many others. Changing mob's back and adding in the new combat way would be a bigger change than I'm asking for personally. The one thing it would do is make SA and SotR a lot more valuable. I'm either way on this one.

[EightyFour]

At least one thing I'm hearing here is that the animations need to be re-keyed to be faster, does anyone disagree with that?