Suggestion about Rangers and Bow Damage

[Turial]

Eh, repeaters are all still pretty broken, especially once they made it so Rapid Shot and Rapid Reload affected the reloading times.

My theory is that a change to ranged ROA is held back because of two things.

1) repeater ROA and Crossbows in general
2) Manyshot may have been rushed into the game and increasing ranged ROA with manyshot as it currently stands would be bad....crossing the streams bad!

Seems like there should be a way to increase the ROA on a specific type of ranged weapon without increasing the ROA for all ranged weapons as a whole. This might allow them to adjust bows up without breaking ranged with repeaters...and possibly tune repeaters down to where they fit thematically.

Manyshot needs to get some serious rework time. As it stands this is a block to ranged combat being changed very much from a mechanics stand point. If it was simply changed to a stance ranged combat would be too good and the devs fears of all ranged combat all the time would come to pass.

(Crazy very rules oriented suggestion)
Seems like if it was changed to a single attack clicky like trip, except with a single round cool down, it would fit with pnp rules and we could then bring ranged ROA up with less fear of power overload. The feat itself provides a set of attack boxes when you take it in your feat section of your character sheet. One symbol with 2 arrows for 2 arrow shots, symbol with 3 arrows for 3 arrow shots and so on and so forth. When you click the symbol you fire a volley of x arrows that the symbol corresponds to. That attack gets the appropriate penalty to attack associated with it. The activation of one works like the boost system and locks out all of the symbols for the cool down. The cool down would be equal to a round of melee combat (5 attacks) ~about 3-5 seconds. If a player wanted to spam the manyshot volley they could but it would be slower then what would be the improved ranged ROA.

Imagine if manyshot worked like deepwood sniper does right now and you could hit it every 5 seconds rather then 10. Would you use it? Would it be worth a better normal ROA?

[bobbryan2]

Imagine if manyshot worked like deepwood sniper does right now and you could hit it every 5 seconds rather then 10. Would you use it? Would it be worth a better normal ROA?

In general, I find this to be less than optimal design. I don't like the current implementation of Deepwood sniper, and I wouldn't enjoy seeing further expansion of this idea.

[Mad_Bombardier]

Eh, repeaters are all still pretty broken, especially once they made it so Rapid Shot and Rapid Reload affected the reloading times.

With both feats, Repeaters fire faster than 1H melee swings starting at BAB+8. I agree that it's broken, but not in the way you are suggesting.

[Coldin]

With both feats, Repeaters fire faster than 1H melee swings starting at BAB+8. I agree that it's broken, but not in the way you are suggesting.

I was actually suggesting multiple degrees of being broken. Both in that rapid shot shouldn't effect crossbows, and that repeaters fire way too fast.

Of course I feel that regular bows speed should be increased, and that repeaters should just be slowed down a little so they're about equal to bows, at least in quickness.

[Ravynclaw]

I agree that making manyshot a constant stance with a - to hit would be best.

Right now we are a burst dps class with too much down time between MS.

You have barbs going in there and just destroying mobs while we plink away with arrows and hope we get a kill shot.

Make ranged DPS a reality!

[nbhs275]

If my ranger got x3 str to bow damage, he would be doing 1d10+5wp+2ram+39 str, with another 10 for FE. So 47-56 damage a shot, 159-186 on a crit, nevermind the extra 10(30 on crit) vs FE. Way more powerful for the str ranger then the dex ranger.

NOW, if they gave you at say lvl 14 ranger dexterious aim(or something similiarly named) that gave your dex bonus as a damage modifier on ranged attacks, i would consider that fair, as it would even out about the same between str and dex rangers.

[Turial]

I was actually suggesting multiple degrees of being broken. Both in that rapid shot shouldn't effect crossbows, and that repeaters fire way too fast.

Of course I feel that regular bows speed should be increased, and that repeaters should just be slowed down a little so they're about equal to bows, at least in quickness.

Repeaters equal bows in speed when some one takes rapid reload and the bow user has not taken rapid shot. Rapid shot will work with regular light crossbows and rapid reload to have the same total speed as a bow.

[Draiden]

A bunch of people are saying that making manyshot a stance would break the game!? That the dps would out-class melee's?! Ya know... my main is a sorc. When I push '5' something instantly dies. When '5' is on timer, I push '4' and the next mob instantly dies. By that point '5' is refreshed, I push it, and the next mob dies.

I have a guildie who is a piercing-spec'd Barbarian. When he pulls out the dual wounding/puncturing rapiers and right-clicks 3 times, things die... fast. He clicks his 'Rage' button, and it lasts for more than 3 MINUTES!!! And when the 3 mintues is up, he drinks a restore pot and clicks it again- immediately. Corpses pile up at his feet and mobs are tripping over themselves to die with the rest of them. WE ARE LEVEL 16, GANG!!! Things are SUPPOSED to die fast. Ranged Rangers aren't pulling their weight. Manyshot is broken. Yes, toggling manyshot will make things die quickly. That's the point.

Thanks for the soapbox...

-D-

[Draiden]

As an afterthought... give Manyshot a line of enhancements almost identical to the Barbarian Rage enhancements? With same tie-ins to Dexterity that the Rage has with Constitution? *shrugs* As I mentioned before, though... don't make it available to only rangers. There are fighter builds and barbarian builds that use manyshot. That would cheese a lot of people.

-D-

[nbhs275]

As an afterthought... give Manyshot a line of enhancements almost identical to the Barbarian Rage enhancements? With same tie-ins to Dexterity that the Rage has with Constitution? *shrugs* As I mentioned before, though... don't make it available to only rangers. There are fighter builds and barbarian builds that use manyshot. That would cheese a lot of people.

-D-

I would be happy with an enhancment that shortened the cooldown for manyshot at a flat rate 15 seconds each teir, at a price of 1/2/3/4. Then you could manyshot every other minutes, which would be a big boost in ranged output, but not gamebreakingly so.

[EightyFour]

I was thinking of another idea that might work out for everyone. How about combine the bonus for dex and str to bow strength, that way either way you go you have the dex rangers getting extra damage and there higher to hit with a bow, and stength rangers would be able to get there high to hit with melee as well as any dex bonus they have for range but not as much with somone that goes all dex. Plus I dont think it would be overpowering.

[EightyFour]

Also I compiled all the idea's that I saw in the order that I saw them, lemme know if I missed one.

1. Increse bow strength to either x2 or x3 the damage with the exception of crits.
   
2. Use the dexterity modifier and the strength modifier, which ever is higher.
   
3. Use the dexterity modifier plus the strength modifier to determine bow damage. (Just thought up this one)
   
4. Fix the rate of fire.
   
5. Make Manyshot a stance.
   
6. QuantumFX’s Idea:
   Rapid Shot and Manyshot should be stacking toggleable stances. Bow Strength should either be applied to all composite bows or made into a full BAB class bonus feat. Since Attacks of Opportunity are dropped for melee it shouldn't apply to ranged attackers. Improved precise shot should only have a 33% chance at hitting multiple targets. This would make Arcane Archer more attractive as "Seeker Arrow" and "Phase Arrow" could be implemented to raise that chance back up to 100%. Ranged Increments are already in game by the fact that stuff can sidestep your arrows.
   
   Emulating a full attack option: Meaning your standing still picking off foes. You should get your full number of attacks per round and the Rapid Shot stance should apply. Manyshot in this mode should have half the number of attack animations but will deliver the full number of arrows. Basically you'll get: 5 shots at regular BAB; 6 shots with a -2 BAB; 2 Shots of 4 arrows at -8 BAB or 3 Shots of 4 arrows at -10 BAB.
   
   Emulating Shot on the Run: We'll need to go back a bit to the pre mod 3 days and make some minor changes.
   - If you don't have SotR: then you should be able to run around, reload and attack. You'll suck up the -4 to hit penalty and take a 50% running speed reduction while attacking/reloading. (Same should apply to those w/o Spring Attack) Your attack speed will be 50% of your standing still speed but the manyshot stance will not slow down your RoF.
   - If you do have SotR: The -4 to hit and 50% running speed reduction go away.
   Sorry, I really didn’t know how to compress this one.
   
7. Manyshot should be a toggle, providing additional arrows based on your BAB, and a decreased to-hit based on the number of arrows fired.
   
8. Turn rapid shot into both a passive and an active, the passive providing the speed boost, and the active working as a toggle ala PH by providing two arrows both at -2 to strike.
   
9. Allow a ranged character to quickly (key word there) fire off their alloted attacks in a row with a slight reload time between volleys. The reload animation could also be used when shooting and moving at the same time to prevent people from skipping it, though the shot on the run feat could be used to eliminate or reduce the animation while moving.
   
10. A feat chain that replaces strength damage with a damage increase based on your dexterity
    Extended Manyshot Enhancements. (Like the Extended Song Enhancements)
    
    First step (2 AP) - Many shot goes from 20 seconds on /100 seconds off to 30 seconds on/ 90 seconds off
    
    Second step (4 AP) - goes to 40 seconds on / 80 seconds off
    
    Third Step (6 AP) - goes to 50 seconds on / 70 seconds off
    
    Forth step (8 AP) - goes to 60 on / 60 off
    
    Make it for those with the Manyshot feat.
    
11. Reduce the manyshot active timer to 10 seconds, and reduce cooldown to say 30.
    
12. Enhancment that shortened the cooldown for manyshot at a flat rate 15 seconds each teir, at a price of 1/2/3/4.

[Geonis]

I think the main problem is the Ranger who pulls before grp is set or aggros the wrong mob. I think another problem is chasing monsters down. I for one HATE chasing monsters all around while the Ranger jumps around and runs this drives me insane. I know someone will say work with the ranger blah blah but I am tired of telling Rangers to stop running around

This is still the dumbest thing I hear over and over.

Tired of chasing mobs the Ranger pulls? Then.......................stop!

Seriously, it may take a little bit longer, but he's taking no damage and keeping them off the group, so let it be.

[Draiden]

This is still the dumbest thing I hear over and over.

Tired of chasing mobs the Ranger pulls? Then.......................stop!

Seriously, it may take a little bit longer, but he's taking no damage and keeping them off the group, so let it be.

Yeah, the problem is people get bloodthirst. The see a mob running away, and they feel the need to kill it. Problem is, somebody is already working on the killing, so the bloodthirst gets redirected to the ranger.

[Aesop]

Ranged Combat Rebalancing: Ranged Combat feels like an after thought that is the bastard stepchild of an abusive alcoholic schizophrenic. It still needs a little love but it doesn't seem to get any at home. So put the stepparent on prozac and lets get by this.

a. RoF: I've posted this a number of times but here it goes again. The RoF of Ranged attacks is far too low relative to Melee. I understand that Mele actually has to be up close and personal with the baduns so risk taking more damage vrs ranged who is well... ranging. However that is a benefit of Ranged combat. The benefits of Melee varies a little. Sword and Shield has better Armor Class due to using bigger shields and thus get more blocking DR when they use it. They also typically have heavier armor options and Shields can carry other useful effect on them like Deathblock or Resistances. Two Handed Fighters do Strength and 1 Half Damage and get glancing blows for a bunch more damage. Two Weapon Fighters are the Quisinarts of the DDO world and attack a huge number of times (though possibly not as many as they should). That said the following should be considered.

1.Change the base RoF of Ranged attacks to 60% that of Sword and Shield Melee(hence forth with regard to Ranged RoF refered to as Melee). (if melee swings 100 times in a minute then Archers and thrown weapons should fire off 60 shots without any modifiers)

2.Rapid Shot should increase the RoF to 75% that of Melee

3.The Feat Improved Rapid Shot should be implemented to give an additional 10% bringing Ranged to 85% the RoF of Melee

4.Manyshot should be changed to a Stance with the following conditios and modifiers.
4a. Many Shot cannot be used in conjunction with Rapid Shot or Improved Rapid Shot thus reducing the RoF back down to 60% Melee.
4b. Numbers of Arrows used should be selectable with limitations by BAB. 2 at BAB 6, 3 at BAB 11, and 4 at BAB 16.
4c. Each arrow should give a cumulative penalty. I suggest -2 to hit for the first additional arrow and -1 for each beyond that and a RoF penalty of -5% per additional arrow thus reducing the RoF of a Many Shot to 45% at BAB 16 with 4 Arrows flying and a -4 to hit penalty. (note: In PnP Many Shot is a Standard Action which means it can only be fired once per round and comes with a penalty of -8 for firing 4 arrows at the same time. While this (sorta) works in PnP in a Real Time MMO the penalty would be slightly out of balance with the rest of combat to have the RoF reduced to 20% melee)
4d. It may already be there but as Melee has a reduce RoF while moving so too should Ranged. As Many Shot would already encompass a RoF Penalty that is to emulate the Standard Action the movement penalty shouldn't stack to further reduce the Many Shot.

b. Ammunition: Ranged needs a better selection of Ammunition.
1. We should be able to purchase any Material type for base arrows. Silver, Cold Iron, Adamantine, Byeshk ...whatever. Should be made available. Basic Elemental types Should be made available as well. Flaming, Frost, Acid and Shock. Favor Rewards should be implemented to make available other ammunition types (Holy, Axiomatic, Burst effect, Cursespewing etc... almost any weapon effect can be placed on ammunition)
2. From the SRD

Ammunition: Projectile weapons use ammunition: arrows (for bows), bolts (for crossbows), or sling bullets (for slings). When using a bow, a character can draw ammunition as a free action; crossbows and slings require an action for reloading. Generally speaking, ammunition that hits its target is destroyed or rendered useless, while normal ammunition that misses has a 50% chance of being destroyed or lost.

I would like this translated into all normal ammo being 10% returning and Masterwork and magic being 15%(or more) returning.
3. Thank the gods that Quivers are being implemented. Consider the addition of Magic Quivers that grant normal arrows special effects like increased returning or keen or flaming or poison. These wouldn't need to be low level rewards but even as raid gear or quest creation gear (like the Orchard Shields and Hats)

Range: Range and distance seem a bit off right now.
1. Please increase the Range increments. As it stands now, Point Blank Shot only kicks in at a range almost being able to swing a sword at the critter I'm attacking. 30 ft seems much closer to 10.
2. Also add in Range Increments. even if it is only 5 of them with the ranges being touch, short, medium, long and extreme. throwing a hammer from accross the valley shouldn't hit as effectively as an Arrow from 10 ft. which brings me to the next part
3. Penalties. have penalties kick in beyond medium range. -2 for long range and -4 for extreme. let Point Blank range be within the Short Range category.
4. Implement Far Shot as a Feat. Have Far Shot increase the effective range of Point Blank Shot to Medium and decrease penalties by 2. (note let this also affect Sneak Attack range)
5. Implement Guided Shot (Ranger/Wiz Spell level 1 that negates Ranged Penalties for 1 round ... of just a short time here), Sniper Shot (level 1 ranger/wiz spell lvl 1 which removes the range limitation on Sneak Attack for 1 shot...or just a short time here), and Arrow Mind (ranger/wiz spell level 1 which makes it so ranged attacks don't cause Attacks of Opportunity... here it would negate the AC penalty)

Bow Strength: I understand that when first starting it appeared that rangers needed a little love... and they might have. I also understand that in an environment where crafting was not existant that requiring Composite bows that match your characters strengh could get problematic. However making Archery a Ranger only ability is a bad bad thing. If you needed to, just add Bow Strength to Point Blank Shot and give the Bow Strength to rangers anyway (since they bypass PBS and go straight on to Rapid Shot). Fighters and other range Centric characters shouldn't need to splash Ranger to make an archer.

Or alternately let Rangers have teh Bow Strength but apply a Property to Composite Bows called Mighty which allows the Archer to gain their Strength Bonus (this would be a non magical effect that was on all Compocite Bows). Make this effect combine with a Rangers Bow Strength to give the effect of Strength and a half (or a quarter if that's too strong uou could even add enhancements that increase it to Strength and a half and maybe even strength ax2 at high levels of ranger)

[Turial]

Sadly none of this is likely to happen.

Though check out the new paladin stuff. Why wasn't the ranger love mod as deep in cool enhancements for ranged? All turbine seems to be doing is increasing the power of melee relative to the barbarian critical rage. At this rate I may have to hang up my bows and look for a better assortment of melee weapons.

Sorry kinda a glum rainy day here and seeing all of the melee power boosts, even though paladins really needed them and I'm happy for them, didn't help.

[Yaga_Nub]

Sadly none of this is likely to happen.

Though check out the new paladin stuff. Why wasn't the ranger love mod as deep in cool enhancements for ranged? All turbine seems to be doing is increasing the power of melee relative to the barbarian critical rage. At this rate I may have to hang up my bows and look for a better assortment of melee weapons.

Sorry kinda a glum rainy day here and seeing all of the melee power boosts, even though paladins really needed them and I'm happy for them, didn't help.

I guess we aren't looking at the same enhancements because I'll take what the devs gave to the Rangers over what the devs have created for the paladins ANY day of the week and twice on Sunday. There are no "prestige class" enhancements and even the smiting enhancement is a clicky that just replaces the normal smite.

[Turial]

I guess we aren't looking at the same enhancements because I'll take what the devs gave to the Rangers over what the devs have created for the paladins ANY day of the week and twice on Sunday. There are no "prestige class" enhancements and even the smiting enhancement is a clicky that just replaces the normal smite.

Speaking ranged combat vs paladin melee I would take the paladin set. They dont require 2 less useful feats and a set of rather useless enhancements to qualify for. Also they are synergistic with the paladin smite. Granted we can user the deep wood sniper shot more often but against fast melee combat with a nice boost it isnt too combarable.

But I was speaking more to the depth of enhancements that paladins ended up with rather then their overall power.

[ChildrenofBodom]

If a ranger is kiting something and you are chasing it, kinda sounds like you are the idiot.

Remember, you have a decision, no one makes you chase it, it's not that hard, don't chase it. I don't range often, but I do enjoy kiting from time to time. Don't spoil a rangers fun because you are being ********.

[Yaga_Nub]

Speaking ranged combat vs paladin melee I would take the paladin set. They dont require 2 less useful feats and a set of rather useless enhancements to qualify for. Also they are synergistic with the paladin smite. Granted we can user the deep wood sniper shot more often but against fast melee combat with a nice boost it isnt too combarable.

But I was speaking more to the depth of enhancements that paladins ended up with rather then their overall power.

I would still disagree that there is depth in the new enhancements. One is a new line of smiting and one is a resurrection line. Where is the depth in that? We got prestige classes and an awesome new spell.