How about 1 more level 1 and level 2 spell for arcanes?

[Makdar]

What do you mean they would be balanced?
Sorcs are way over powered right now. 4 good spells is all you need for levels 1 and 2. And sorcs average about 600 more sp then wizards. Wizards are pretty much confined to be CC specialist because of lower mana numbers which is boring as hell I might add (cast web and sit back wait for fighters to kill mobs) while sorcs can jump in a quest finger and pk everything into oblivion and actually have fun.
Unbalanced my ass.......play a wizard sometime bud

Question Thane. Did you even read my post that you quoted? Probably not considering your sig.

Cause if you had, you would have recognized the following:

1) I was discussing a balanced upgrade between the sorc & wizard classes, not overall balance that currently exists.
2) I do play a level 16 warforged wizard a lot. I also play a level 16 drow sorcerer. In my opinion they are balanced overall. One is better than the other for different reasons. I could point the reasons out to you, but my guess is that you haven't read this far in my response post anyway so there's really no point.
3) In DnD rules, sorcs get 5 level 1 and level 2 spells. It's in the rules. All I'm saying is give a balanced upgrade for wizards and sorcs that properly represents DnD rules. Heck, many people cried holy hell when evasion was allowed for medium and heavy armor wearers. It wasn't in the rules and people wanted the rules to be represented properly. The same should go here.

Last, and this more for the people that think what's the point, there aren't enough level 1 and level 2 useful spells for this to be worthwhile. The following lists give spells from levels 1 and 2 that are at the very least, situationally useful, even at high levels. I would appreciate this upgrade on both my wizard and sorcerer.

Level 1 Useful Spells
Hypnotism
Jump
Magic Missle
Shield/Nightshield
Ray of Enfeeblement
Tumble

Level 2 Useful Spells
Energy Resist
Web
Scorching Ray
Blur
Knock
Glitterdust
Hypnotic Pattern
Melf's Acid Arrow
Blindness
Touch of Idiocy

[Makdar]

Uh... in PnP, if a sorcerer has roughly 1/8th the spells (5/39), then a wizard should have roughly 1/10th (4/39) (not including bonus spells based on high ability scores). Therefore, according to PnP, a sorcerer should always have a larger spell selection at any given moment (for L1 and L2 spells). The beauty behind wizards is that they can change that spell selection virtually at any time. Sorcerers then have a tapered spell progression, i.e. they should cap L6 spells at qty. 3 and not raise it to 4 when the level cap is increased.

At L20 a sorcerer should have (5/5/4/4/4/3/3/3/3), but an L20 wizard would have (4/4/4/4/4/4/4/4/4); a few less L1 and L2 spells, but more L6-L9 spells. Also, a wizard should have more spells available through high INT (even with the implementation of the SP optional rules). At L20 (in DDO) a wizard should have around a 40 INT, which would make the final spell selection for a wizard (8/8/8/7/7/7/7/6/6), but the sorcerer would maintain the previously described progression. They would, however, have enough SP to be able to cast a (10/10/10/9/9/9/9/8/8) progression, which is a bit more then a wizard, though, due to how sorcerers are designed. That is, if Turbine had implemented this correctly.

The amount of spells available should have no bearing on the limitations of the spell selections of sorcerers, wizards, and clerics.

Great post Alavatar. Would be great if things had been implemented this way. High level wizards with decent int would have just about all useful spells at their disposal and sorcs would get their PnP rules due and still be the natural born killers that they are.

[Mad_Bombardier]

At L20 a sorcerer should have (5/5/4/4/4/3/3/3/3), but an L20 wizard would have (4/4/4/4/4/4/4/4/4); a few less L1 and L2 spells, but more L6-L9 spells. Also, a wizard should have more spells available through high INT (even with the implementation of the SP optional rules). At L20 (in DDO) a wizard should have around a 40 INT, which would make the final spell selection for a wizard (8/8/8/7/7/7/7/6/6), but the sorcerer would maintain the previously described progression. They would, however, have enough SP to be able to cast a (10/10/10/9/9/9/9/8/8) progression, which is a bit more then a wizard, though, due to how sorcerers are designed. That is, if Turbine had implemented this correctly.

Right, that was my point the last time this topic was discussed. In PnP, Ability bonus spells for Sorcs are extra castings. For Wizzies, it's castings and/or spell slots. You can prepare an extra magic missle or MM + Nightshield. In DDO, we get the extra castings in the SP system and we get the flexibility of spontaneous casting, but are limited to one extra slot (max 5 at all spell levels).

How's this for a simpliifed system (using current spell progressions)? When you hit 20 INT, you unlock the 5th slot for spells L1-5. Then at 30 INT, you should unlock a 5th slot for L6-9 and 6th slot for spell levels 1-5. And possibly 40 INT = a 6th slot for L6-9 and a 7th slot for spell L1-5. Then, we can correct Sorc spell slots to the PnP number. Wizards should just be that much more flexible.

[Hvymetal]

In reality though, since this was also brought up the last time this subject came up I feel obligated to repost it as well. Since we are talking about how things should be per the rules then we must also discuss Sorcerors faster spell casting and ability to swap out spells every three days.

[Vormaerin]

Read your 3.5 Player's Handbook in the section on spells in the class listing for both Bards and Sorcerers.

Page 28 for Bards and Page 54 for Sorcerers:

"New spells can be common spells from the class spell list, or they can be unusual spells that the caster has gained some understanding of by study. For example, a caster with a scroll or spellbook detailing a spell not on their class list could select that spell as one of his new spells for attaining a new level, provided that it is of the right spell level. The caster can't use this method of spell acquistion to learn spells at a faster rate, however."

This also a class ability for Favored Souls, though I have misplaced my Complete Divine, so I can't quote you a page number for their reference.

Uhh, that doesn't do anything. That is a mechanism for allowing bards and sorcerors to learn non standard spells, of which there are none in DDO. Basically all you are doing is asking the devs to add more spells. The sorceror or bard with that rule is not getting more spells known, he is just getting a chance to learn a custom spell instead of selecting a PHB spell. DDO sorcerors and bards can chose any spell available in the game, period. There is no 'nonstandard spells' that they would need to use that rule for.

[Vormaerin]

Great post Alavatar. Would be great if things had been implemented this way. High level wizards with decent int would have just about all useful spells at their disposal and sorcs would get their PnP rules due and still be the natural born killers that they are.

Using spell slots would certainly have a lot of interesting implications for the game. I don't know that most players would actually like it, given the vast outpouring of Vancian magic loathing that you see on 4e forums at the moment along with the ubiquitious whines about '5 minute adventuring days'. Sorcs who run out of Fingers of Death and have to use (gasp) Magic Missile.

Neither wizards nor sorcerors in this game perform like their p&p counterparts as a result of the spell point optional rule, which I think is a good idea for an MMO. They both perform as hybrids of the way the two classes work in p&p. Wizards in DDO have better spontaneous casting than p&p sorcerors. DDO sorcerors have vastly superior casting speed (in p&p a sorc and a wizard cast normal spells in the same time; sorcs cast metamagics spells slower than wizards) and superior ability to swap spells (not wizard level, but vastly better than in p&p).

And there are still only 2/3 as many spells in DDO as there are in just the 3.5 PHB for mages. Full spontaneous casting *and* ability slots for wizards would be pretty sick (and not in a good way, imho), while sorcerors getting even more spells while still retaining the rapid swapping they have would make the wizard advantage pretty negligible (metamagic feats vs spell casting speed, essentially).

[KIELBASEE555]

you have a special place you can teleport to. although it dose not have anything REALLY important. If it really was important, it would have a major mark down on the price's. maybe 100 gold for a max heal potion. it still is something the mortal fighters just do not have seperate from wizz/sorc's. i would want a privit garrison place in the market that ONLY fighter, palaidens and barbarian's can goto. NO wizzard is able to teleport to.

[Invalid_86]

Well whether they like it or not in 4e is irrelevant as we are not playing 4e.

3.5 is based on spell slots. bring them back would bring back a whole mess of lost balance to the game. Not to mention- gasp!- strategically using spells instead of spamming them and due to the lack of spamming allowing the blanket immunities on mobs to be loosened.

[Vormaerin]

I didn't say anything about using 4e rules. I said that discussion of the changes in 4e have revealed a pretty widespread dislike of Vancian magic in the p&p playing community, one that is quite likely to even more established in computer gamers.

Anyway, it wouldn't really change things too much. Computer gamers would just do what p&p players with soft DMs currently do: retreat and rest constantly. There are better ways to fix the metamagic balance issues than reintroducing Vancian magic.

[GeneralDiomedes]

No. The logic is "sorcs are supposed to be weaker than wizards because of fewer spell slots". But the problem arises DDO has less than 6 level 1 spells that you'd care about having. Therefore, fewer slots on the sorc.

Yep, they have exactly 5

[Alavatar]

Using spell slots would certainly have a lot of interesting implications for the game. I don't know that most players would actually like it, given the vast outpouring of Vancian magic loathing that you see on 4e forums at the moment along with the ubiquitious whines about '5 minute adventuring days'. Sorcs who run out of Fingers of Death and have to use (gasp) Magic Missile.

Neither wizards nor sorcerors in this game perform like their p&p counterparts as a result of the spell point optional rule, which I think is a good idea for an MMO. They both perform as hybrids of the way the two classes work in p&p. Wizards in DDO have better spontaneous casting than p&p sorcerors. DDO sorcerors have vastly superior casting speed (in p&p a sorc and a wizard cast normal spells in the same time; sorcs cast metamagics spells slower than wizards) and superior ability to swap spells (not wizard level, but vastly better than in p&p).

And there are still only 2/3 as many spells in DDO as there are in just the 3.5 PHB for mages. Full spontaneous casting *and* ability slots for wizards would be pretty sick (and not in a good way, imho), while sorcerors getting even more spells while still retaining the rapid swapping they have would make the wizard advantage pretty negligible (metamagic feats vs spell casting speed, essentially).

Read my post again. And read the Spell Point Varient Rules in the SRD. Specifically, keep in mind this paragraph under Preparing Spells.

"For example, Boredflak the 4th-level wizard has an Intelligence score of 16. When using the spell point system, he would prepare four 0-level spells, four 1st-level spells (three plus his bonus spell for high Int), and three 2nd-level spells (two plus his bonus spell for high Int). These spells make up his entire list of spells that he can cast during the day, though he can cast any combination of them, as long as he has sufficient spell points."

This is what Turbine should have done.

Hvymetal, I agree that Sorcerers should not cast faster then Wizards, but it is a necessary game mechanic for Sorcerers to be able to switch out their spells every 3 days due to changes of spells and additions of new spells. IMO