***Public Notice***

[Dogchair]

This is how I see things. When I star a pug, I'm directing the show. I'm not controlling so much as trying to use what we have in its best manner. I think this works more as adjusting pug group timing and tempo. I want to get it done, with no wipes, in the most efficient method I know how, while keeping it fun for the group.

(reference point 1. What is fun for a tank isnt necessarily fun for a cleric or caster. I play all 3)

If I see casters without certain helpful spells(truesight) and tanks without clickies (truesight) in a quest where the mobs wear displacement(cabal) and I ask the caster to not pk the the unbuffed guys but to focus on the displaced ones "First", if that makes me a bad leader, star, an @sshole, or someone worthy of blacklisting, so be it.

If the caster then takes offense to my request, stops playing alltogether, and pikes the rest of the quest on the basis; "hes not going to tell me how to play my toon, so I'm gonna be stubborn and not help the rest of the quest" Do you think I want to take you with us into feast or cry?

Add to the fact that 2 out of the 5 people were new to the quests(completely) having had left the game when the cap was 10?

After asking everyone to return to GH, and this caster refusing to, I broke group and reformed without him.

My reasoning; start with cabal, assess pug teamwork level, if ok, goto feast, assess teamwork with longer more difficult quest, if ok, goto cry for help.......basic programming(remember writing basic on your commodore 64 or apple2e with the green screen?)

In conclusion: I was told I was going to be blacklisted by this persons guild. I was told that he had been playing for 2 years and that he was a good player. I was told that i was a ****** and that everyone in his guild was going to blacklist me. I was told he was going to tell all his friends to blacklist me.

I've thought about this for 2 days. My answer is this. PLEASE DO. If what i did was worthy of that in your opinion, so be it. If your story moves your guild leader to ask for a guildwide blacklist, then I accept.

-dogchair

[Daerius of the Blessed Blades]

Being from Arkansas, all I can say is... "Boy, ya done good!"

I think you are justified, and hopefully it was communicated in the manner you mentioned and not, "Hey! Dumb-a**! Quit playing like a doof and do as I say."

And for the record, if anyone in my guild ever acts that way, we don't keep a blacklist. So ignore their threats...

[Rowanheal]

Well I find it interesting...

I play fighters, casters, clerics, rangers, so on and so forth... basically I think I have at least one or two of everything at this point...

I love to learn new ways to do things...

HOWEVER, you TELL me how to run a quest YOUR way and I am going to put you on my OMG BOSSY list...

It's all in the delivery...

And let's face, most of us play to de-stress not to add more to our lives!

So, give me helpful suggestions and I will follow you into a dungeon filled with danger...

Tell me how you want me to play my character, who may be an odd build, and I'll let you know how I feel about it... maybe we'll have a meeting of the minds Probably I am going to tell ya no thanks and go have some fun... but thats just me!

See ya in Stormreach,

-R

[Ransacked]

I find this completely reasonable.

If there is no way in the party to mitigate an enemy casters buffs like displacement through use of true seeing (or dispells like dispell, gtr dispell, or break enchantment) then I would hope that the caster in the party who does not need true seeing to automatically kill those first.

It's really all about priority of targets / threat.

Enemy Caster - Can dish out lots of dmg
Enemy Cleric - Heals damage party is doing
Enemy Paladin - Buffs up rest of enemy mobs
all the rest - hurts you all the same

It's pretty much how the AI sees it...

Door opens (4 fighters standing there a caster and cleric in the backish)
Mobs rush past fighters and beat on the caster and cleric

They make your lives miserable in quests.

It must have been a day for blacklisting... Someone definately didn't like the way I was playing my cleric

[Ryan1616]

This is how I see things. When I star a pug, I'm directing the show. I'm not controlling so much as trying to use what we have in its best manner. I think this works more as adjusting pug group timing and tempo. I want to get it done, with no wipes, in the most efficient method I know how, while keeping it fun for the group.

(reference point 1. What is fun for a tank isnt necessarily fun for a cleric or caster. I play all 3)

If I see casters without certain helpful spells(truesight) and tanks without clickies (truesight) in a quest where the mobs wear displacement(cabal) and I ask the caster to not pk the the unbuffed guys but to focus on the displaced ones "First", if that makes me a bad leader, star, an @sshole, or someone worthy of blacklisting, so be it.

If the caster then takes offense to my request, stops playing alltogether, and pikes the rest of the quest on the basis; "hes not going to tell me how to play my toon, so I'm gonna be stubborn and not help the rest of the quest" Do you think I want to take you with us into feast or cry?

Add to the fact that 2 out of the 5 people were new to the quests(completely) having had left the game when the cap was 10?

After asking everyone to return to GH, and this caster refusing to, I broke group and reformed without him.

My reasoning; start with cabal, assess pug teamwork level, if ok, goto feast, assess teamwork with longer more difficult quest, if ok, goto cry for help.......basic programming(remember writing basic on your commodore 64 or apple2e with the green screen?)

In conclusion: I was told I was going to be blacklisted by this persons guild. I was told that he had been playing for 2 years and that he was a good player. I was told that i was a ****** and that everyone in his guild was going to blacklist me. I was told he was going to tell all his friends to blacklist me.

I've thought about this for 2 days. My answer is this. PLEASE DO. If what i did was worthy of that in your opinion, so be it. If your story moves your guild leader to ask for a guildwide blacklist, then I accept.

-dogchair

I personally love to see how other people run the quest i will follow loyally! though if i see something that i know WILL NOT work I will say so. Seeing new ways to play are never a bad thing and its a learning experience! whiners can move along... I can say i have broken group for the same reasons... so more power to you.

[Dogchair]

I didn't name call or any of that. I admit my voice may have revealed my annoyance, but I pretty much said "hey, can you focus on the displaced ones first, since we cant hit them at all?"

I build odd builds from time to time. No worries there. my mind just computes, if you got PK and your fighters can't hit the displaced orcs, why not pk those displaced ones first?. Especially when your tanks go through the other ones like butter.

To each his own i suppose.

-dog

[Yajerman01]

its all about presentation. If you were cool, tempered and explained it (regardless ofthe other persons experience) then there should have been no problem. If you did that and he continued to be obstreperous, then you did what any logcial person would have done. <extends boot>

As the saying goes, you catch more flies with honey then you do with vinegar.

[Furgulder]

And for the record, if anyone in my guild ever acts that way, we don't keep a blacklist. So ignore their threats

u dont keep a blacklist, you just forward the name to Furgulder for random inappropriate "accidental" cyber mistells....

[Krondox]

eh i know who your talking about and I was on during that instance. Look man people are going to play how they play, to say that your supreme ruler and lord when you are star of a group unfortunately that mentality is not going to work out. At least I know it wouldn’t for me. Either way I only heard one side of the conversation when you where in that group and I don’t think either member involved was in the right, saying that could take some flak from not supporting a guildies but either way remember we all pay to play and play to have fun, so let people do what they want as long as it is not totally detrimental to the group or a newbie total screwing things up like we had in a shroud run where In part 2 a person ran straight for the center because the didn’t know better. Just my two C.P.


P.S. I’ve ran with both players in different groups before, not bad guys, just a misunderstanding I guess.
k

[unionyes]

I never lead pugs. Having said that.......

Newbie mistakes need to be dealt with patiently, and with gentle, constructive advice. The kind that I like to get when I screw up.

For more experienced players, if you don't like the strategy of the party leader, drop group and make your own. I love the whole 'playing my toon' argument. Unless they are standing there telling you 'ok, now cast magic missile, now run over here, now back up, now throw down a buff on the fighter, now on the ranger...' they aren't telling you how to play.

If they are saying 'We are going to run through this part, a haste would be great', or 'lay down a firewall and we will pull them back to it', that is strategy and the star should determine this. If you don't like it, then drop group.

I am sure that the booted guy is a great player. If he won't work with the pug that he is in, then he isn't a great team player. IMO, be an individual all you want, just do it in someone else's group please. I have no patience for people who are averse to working together to get the quest done, and the leader is the one who sets that direction.

[Ranmaru2]

LOL wow..just wow...I've never seen any reason to blacklist you dog! HAHA!

Just send me a tell and lets go duo stuff again

[wamjratl1]

Being from Arkansas, all I can say is... "Boy, ya done good!"

I think you are justified, and hopefully it was communicated in the manner you mentioned and not, "Hey! Dumb-a**! Quit playing like a doof and do as I say."

And for the record, if anyone in my guild ever acts that way, we don't keep a blacklist. So ignore their threats...

OK cool so i'm not really blacklisted by you guys...

[Deragoth]

I didn't name call or any of that. I admit my voice may have revealed my annoyance, but I pretty much said "hey, can you focus on the displaced ones first, since we cant hit them at all?"

I build odd builds from time to time. No worries there. my mind just computes, if you got PK and your fighters can't hit the displaced orcs, why not pk those displaced ones first?. Especially when your tanks go through the other ones like butter.

To each his own i suppose.

-dog

Right on, brutha.

[Dogchair]

eh i know who your talking about and I was on during that instance. Look man people are going to play how they play, to say that your supreme ruler and lord when you are star of a group unfortunately that mentality is not going to work out. At least I know it wouldn’t for me. Either way I only heard one side of the conversation when you where in that group and I don’t think either member involved was in the right, saying that could take some flak from not supporting a guildies but either way remember we all pay to play and play to have fun, so let people do what they want as long as it is not totally detrimental to the group or a newbie total screwing things up like we had in a shroud run where In part 2 a person ran straight for the center because the didn’t know better. Just my two C.P.


P.S. I’ve ran with both players in different groups before, not bad guys, just a misunderstanding I guess.
k

Sup kron, 99 percent of what you say i agree with. There are always 3 sides to every story, my side, your side and what really happened. That being said, I KNOW my voice can show irritation at times, and I do feel leading a pug implies some authority, and i also feel if you dont like a pug, leave after you are done with said quest, or before it starts.

the whole im gonna blacklist ya, my guild is gonna blacklist ya, my friends all call you names **** left a bad taste in my mouth.

In all honesty we sat there for 5-10 minutes trying to hit something and kill it. It was displaced and he had over half his mana, and it was healing it self.....and his response to not casting was ....well enough about that. After that i feel i don't need him in the pug. Worth blacklisting, i don't think so.

-dog

[Cowdenicus]

Blacklist me also please, cause when I have the star I am a miserable tyrant.......

We are all here to have fun, and if you are delaying my loot/time ratio too much.... /boot.

That is unless you are new to the quest, or you make me laugh, then certain allowances can be made.

[Big_Russ]

1. Seems a bit drastic, but I've been known to fly off the handle at times.

2. As a Professional Badass Sorc, it is easier to PK/finger everything than to surgically do so.

That is all.

[query]

I don't care how new or veteran a person is, ordering me to play a PC in any way is tantamountly opposite to the concept of fun.


SUGGEST soimething I may not know or have missed is fine.


I don't like being TOLD I need a mike, need xyz spells, abc on my build, or it's gimped and I'm predeclined.


To those people I deliberately make a character that "must fail" just to show anything with forethought can work, NOT a broken PC to ruin other people's time saying I'm some role player cutting off the group's nose to spite our face.


But coming off as helpful by saying "this is what you do" will make normally sane people act just as you described sometimes.


Their resolution was just as close minded as a drill sargent on a raid expecting people to be relaxed and enjoying themselves, so don't think I'm siding with them either. If they played for 2 years they should know better then to show how bad they are by guild banning you for that. And if the person from that guild is reading this, SHAME ON YOU! This is not an elitist clique, and nobody deserves that from one experience, and if ANY of you tankled a quest due to opinions of one person, double shame (not saying you did but IF you did....)


Now, can we all SUGGEST what we have learned please?


And yes, feel free to ignore everything I said anybody if you wish.


It's your call, not mine.

[rimble]

HOWEVER, you TELL me how to run a quest YOUR way and I am going to put you on my OMG BOSSY list...

It's all in the delivery...

Yup, that's what I was going to say. I'm not guilded, so it's all PUG for me. Many leaders announce a tactic expecting me to have a particular spell; the good ones, when I say I don't have it (Sorcerer), usually come back with "Well ****. Alright, do whatever you do and we'll work it out".

The bad ones go into lecture mode...and heaven forbid if they played a Sorcerer to high level before and you're not playing yours exactly how he played his, because those are the only tactics he knows...oy vey...

The guild-wide blacklist seems pretty childish for such a small disagreement.

[apious1]

It is extremely difficult to lead groups and I think there are too many people that play this game that have no idea what that is like. I swear, 90% of the time I am in a group I am leading it or at least it feels like it. It seems like no one ever wants to volunteer to lead a group and for good reason. It is a pain in the A**. You constantly have to wrangle people in and point them in the right direction and then when you do half of them get ****ed b/c you are telling them how to play. My simplest response to them is usually, fine then you lead and miraculously they shut up and fall in line.

Trust me, my ego is out-of-control and when I am in a group and I am not leading I too get ****ed when the leader tries to tell me how to play. I guess it is a little easier for me though since I lead groups so much that I understand where they are coming from and I try (note: I said "try") to shut up and fall in line b/c I know the stresses the leader is going through.

I wish more people would step up and lead groups so they could know what it is like. Most of the time is sucks from start to finish. First, you have to deal with just making the group. Depending on what quest you are doing, this may be easy or hard. Let's say for instance you are building a group for a Shroud run. Then you have to worry about the right group make-up which is never easy to accomplish b/c you may have a guy join who has three other guildies that want to come and oh yeah, sorry they are all Rogues. Or, you set the LFM up for a specific class and then you get group joins from a billion other people, all from different classes. I hate having to hit Decline because I hate being declined. I also hate hitting decline b/c then I know I am going to have to have tell war with the guy that I declined. "Why did you decline me?' "Because I don't need any more Rogues, do you have a Tank and/or Caster?" "No, but my Rogue is a melee build." /sighs.

Then you have to deal with any of the BS that might go on in the group. Some people need hand-holding, some people prefer to be left alone, some people suck and you have to make sure your bases are covered, some people zerg (which is fine, so long and you don't zerg and suck), some people move to slow, etc, etc, etc. The leader is the one responsible for making sure that everything goes well and believe it or not, even though this is "just a game", that can be rediculously stressful at times.

So Dog, I know where you are coming from but ultimately who really cares I guess b/c who else is going to volunteer to step up and lead?

[Ransacked]

I like this thread.

So I have a question to you guys that are stating you don't like being told what to do.

(filler)
At least for non-raid content will host parties etc, I play with 2 other people consistently and then the folks in the guild.
The 2 people I'm grouped with consistently is my wife and an older brother.

We built a party hoping for synergy among the classes. We are all toasters, Barbarian/Fighter - Bard - Wizard/Rogue (currently 7/1, 8, 7/1).
We've been having a blast in the little group, the wizard rogues spot skill sucks but the barbs trap sense and stuborness to find traps the hard way works out. Bard is going down the warchanter line and is building a battle bard type layout. Anyhow it's been a good time... generally while running between quests Ill pop up an lfm to see if anyone else wants to join us but I keep the level range small and generally always at or under the level for the quest. I have getting negative xp due to someone being over the ML of quest.

With that being said we know almost without being said what each player is going to be doing.
So in the event that a person joins our party during the short lfm notice I almost feel like its necessary to "dictate" whats going to be happening.

Bard will do songs, fascinate when necessary, buffs like blur, displacement, good hope, and haste, etc. Wizard will be dropping firewalls, charms, crowd control and AoE DPS. Barbarian uses intimidate to manage agro and beats stuff up.

We decided to start the von series last night and had another caster join the party so there were 4 of us and they were a fleshie build. So the bard took the responsibility of keeping that player alive when in need of healing and the wizard kept the 3 of us up when necessary. When the caster joined I let them know that whenever everyone is ready we'll go ahead and start and make do with what we had and that the bard will be healing them.

When we entered the quest I kind of stated what the 3 of us were going to be doing and just basically used a blanket statement for the extra caster. Do what you do best and kill stuff. We rolled through the quest with no hitches what-so-ever and was a good time. At ready room one I asked if the casters could drop a firewall and burn whatever SP they had left for the room of trolls while the bard and I made a small wall in the doorway. For the arena fight asked that the bard would re-haste (she doesn't have extend yet, next level yay!) at the rock in the middle after every encounter.

I guess it really boils down to timing and delivery of the requests a person is making to another in how to "do" something their character does. For instance when a person joins and asks "is there a specific spell someone would like me to bring" take that opportunity to request anything you specifically want. Also prefacing requests with "if you wouldnt mind doing... or Would it be possible to do x here and y here and then we'll start" I feel that those are a couple simple ways to beat the "Omg this guy is telling me what to do attitude" with hey we're actually playing smart and using tactics.

Before we did the von quests last night we decided to give the classic vampire quest a go, I put up an LFM that said Classic Vamp - Not bugging. Much to my surprise no one joined (hah, not really). I think part of the problem people have joining our trio is that they see 3 warforged in the party and say "No way!"

Anyways if you guys have characters around lvl 7/8/9 feel free to join our Trio. Look for Pavyn, Aawnald, and Thulytulen (tool for short)
(end of filler)

What is it that bothers you about being asked to do a certain duty. Is it the delivery or the tone and or timing?

In the shroud runs I rarely see someone get miffed when setting up for part 4 and the leader assigns casters to portals and clerics to tanks. That's telling someone what to do.