"Greater" Disruption

[Andah]

So much to my (short-lived) glee I finally got my green steel weapon up to tier three this evening. I went Positive+Positive+Positive hoping that my weapon would become a disruptor at the end as was said in the spreadsheet on crafting.

When I hear something called 'Greater' I usually assume it's better than the regular version. In the case of Greater Disruption, this is a false statement. Greater disruption procs perhaps 1-3% of the time against undead only and hits them with disruption. (They get no save from what I can tell). But here's the thing: 1-3% isn't as good as a regular disruption weapon! Your target will fail it's save on a 1 every time. And a one is rolled not 3, not 4 but 5% of the time on a d20! This means that you are less likely to disrupt an undead creature with a greater disruption weapon than with a standard disruptor.

Not only is that frustratingly underpowered compared to a regular disruptor. It's also frustratingly underpowered compared to the other tier 3 single element upgrades. All of which proc the same amount of the time, but are effective against all targets, of all power levels and all types. I would rather be doing 300 or so extra damage 1% of the time against all targets rather than have an ability that I already have a better version of on a weapon that I haven't been farming to get since Mod6 came out.

So it would be nice if you either made Greater Disruption worth getting, or if you named it 'Disruption blast' so people like me wouldn't be fooled into crafting a clearly inferior item.

[captain1z]

Think of it more like 1-3% of the time the undead gets no save. Even if he only fails his save on a 1, that 1-3% chance could take place on what would have been a roll of a 20.

Being denied a saving throw 3% of the time is a pretty big deal vs. an auto failed roll of a 1....... the 2 are not equal.


In all honesty tho.... when I read the threads name I thought there was a disruption weapon with a higher DC on it than what we have now.

greater disruption sounds more like a higher DC to me than basicly a vorpal + disrupter combo... which is what this sounds like.

[Bombalo]

Your right greater disruption weapons are completely stupid...its not like they have holy, good burst, and good blast on them or anything........oh wait they do MY BAD. They are amazing dps weapons that have a chance to disrupt on top of all the damage they deal out

[Andah]

Your right greater disruption weapons are completely stupid...its not like they have holy, good burst, and good blast on them or anything........oh wait they do MY BAD. They are amazing dps weapons that have a chance to disrupt on top of all the damage they deal out

You'll get comparable DPS if that 3%-ish chance does 300 extra damage rather than disrupts undead. I do more DPS with my Flaming Greater Undead Bane. Also The damage from another element is more reliable and will work against different creatures other than only evil ones.

Say for instance I go Fire-Fire-Fire instead, I'll have comparable DPS, but I will be able to utilize that DPS against any enemy

Base DPS on all weapons will be the same. We'll say a longsword, so 5.5 average damage per swing. Next, we figure in the criticals, these add 20 extra d10.

Basic:
F+F+F: 660 damage
P+P+P: 660 damage


Now, let's add the elemental effects. That's 2d6 for positive one, 1d6 for positive two, and 1d6 for fire one. Then, we have criticals, so from those 15 critical hits scored Holy will do 3d6 extra, plus 4d6 more on 5 natural 20's. Likewise Fire will do 2d6 extra and 4d6 extra on their natural 20's.

F+F+F: 1220 damage
P+P+P: 2200 damage (Against Evil only. 1010 against neutral or good)

At this point it seems as though the positive is MUCH better, but, now let's add in that 3% chance at 300 damage:

F+F+F: 2120 damage
P+P+P: 2200 damage (Against Evil only. 1010 against neutral or good)

Positive does 80 more damage over 100 swings, now here's the difference: With that middle fire focus, I could have instead gone for +2 AC, +6 Dexterity, Greater Fire Resistance or a number of other abilities and retained the same DPS. The only way to get DPS to that level with the holy sword is to get the tier two upgrade to make it pure good. If you were to use that for a different purpose as you could with the fire weapon, you would come out with 350 less damage over 100 swings. So, in a holy weapon, you trade away versatility and a +2 AC for an ability that only works against undead a very slim percentage of the time. Now let's look at an elemental greater bane, of which my fighter has a full set:

Flaming longsword of greater undead bane: 1950
Great Tyrant Longsword (Positive (Holy), Positive (+2 AC), Positive (Holy Blast)): 1740
Great Tyrant Longsword (Fire (Flaming), Fire (+2 AC), Fire (Flaming Blast)): 1770

I didn't add critical damage to either because they'd be used against undead.

Yes... that's some amazing DPS. Let's compare that to some other raid loot, like saaaay... Enduring Conviction.

Enduring Conviction against any non-good, non-lawful: 1760 + Banishing

Now here's betting that if the abbot weren't broken and could be completed as easily as The Shroud I could get an Enduring Conviction LONG before I finished my Green Steel.

To sum everything up:
If you go Positive-Positive-Positive you lose versatility against non-evil and non-undead for less than 1 damage per swing. If you use mixed foci you'll have even BETTER DPS than any of the weapons listed here.

[GlassCannon]

a %?

what the hell..

seriously. Greater Disruption should not ever be a % activateable, but instead a slightly overpowered version of Disruption that activates 100% of the time.

There goes all the time I have dumped into the raid so far...

On Items the Grater Disrupshin should work as a 2-3x DC in comparison to Disruption, with damage on a failed throw(like FoD on living targets for example).

[Lorien_the_First_One]

I agree with the OP. Greater disruption should either

1) Be disruption + the current greater disruption effect
2) Be disruption only with a higher DC

[MysticTheurge]

Ok then, so let's evaluate it compared to the other "extra effects." Not compared to regular disruption effect.

Andah already did that, on page 1.

Say for instance I go Fire-Fire-Fire instead, I'll have comparable DPS, but I will be able to utilize that DPS against any enemy.

[Talcyndl]

Andah already did that, on page 1.

Well, given the prevalence of resistance and immunity to fire, I don't think a fire line weapon would be as usable as a good/holy weapon.

[bobbryan2]

Your right greater disruption weapons are completely stupid...its not like they have holy, good burst, and good blast on them or anything........oh wait they do MY BAD. They are amazing dps weapons that have a chance to disrupt on top of all the damage they deal out

Well, there's the first person that totally missed the point. I knew someone would.

The weapon isn't really the problem here. The problem is that the weapon effect greater disruption is worse than disruption. Really... they should just name it minor disruption and call it good.

All things considered, the weapon is probably powerful enough. Changing it to normal disruption wouldn't be too terribly overpowered either.

[MysticTheurge]

Think of it more like 1-3% of the time the undead gets no save. Even if he only fails his save on a 1, that 1-3% chance could take place on what would have been a roll of a 20.

Being denied a saving throw 3% of the time is a pretty big deal vs. an auto failed roll of a 1....... the 2 are not equal.

Uh, actually they are.

Disruption: Procs on hit. Undead rolls a save. 5% of the time it's auto-failure. Depending on the target's save they may also fail more of the time. Result: Automatic disruption on 5% of hits, potential for more disruptions based on target's saves.

Greater Disrution: Procs on 1-3% of hits. Undead rolls no save, is simply disrupted. Result: Automatic Disruption on 1-3% of hits, no chance for more disruptions.

One of these things is better than the other and it's not the one that's labeled Greater.

[Yaga_Nub]

Uh, actually they are.

Disruption: Procs on hit. Undead rolls a save. 5% of the time it's auto-failure. Depending on the target's save they may also fail more of the time. Result: Automatic disruption on 5% of hits, potential for more disruptions based on target's saves.

Greater Disrution: Procs on 1-3% of hits. Undead rolls no save, is simply disrupted. Result: Automatic Disruption on 1-3% of hits, no chance for more disruptions.

One of these things is better than the other and it's not the one that's labeled Greater.

I have to agree with MT and everyone else on this subject.

Disruption has already has a way to balance its effects - the DC 14 Will save.

We should be asking the devs why they just didn't increase the DC to 16 or 18 and then call it Greater Disruption. Why get cute and have a no-save effect that doesn't process that often? These weapons are supposed to be "Wow!". Right now they are just sort of "Oh cool."

[Mad_Bombardier]

One of these things is better than the other and it's not the one that's labeled Greater.

What if it worked on Red (but not purple) named bosses? (not that is does. just pondering. )

[MysticTheurge]

What if it worked on Red (but not purple) named bosses? (not that is does. just pondering. )

Then it would be better in a few rare instances and continue to be worse in most others.

[Mad_Bombardier]

Then it would be better in a few rare instances and continue to be worse in most others.

That was the idea.

[bobbryan2]

Think of it more like 1-3% of the time the undead gets no save. Even if he only fails his save on a 1, that 1-3% chance could take place on what would have been a roll of a 20.

Being denied a saving throw 3% of the time is a pretty big deal vs. an auto failed roll of a 1....... the 2 are not equal.


In all honesty tho.... when I read the threads name I thought there was a disruption weapon with a higher DC on it than what we have now.

greater disruption sounds more like a higher DC to me than basicly a vorpal + disrupter combo... which is what this sounds like.

What are you talking about?

Greater disruption is worse in every single case than regular disruption. Worst case scenario... Greater Disruption activates half as often as Regular Disruption. Against low will save undead? Regular disruption could activate 20,30,40, 50 TIMES as often.

[GlassCannon]

What are you talking about?

Greater disruption is worse in every single case than regular disruption. Worst case scenario... Greater Disruption activates half as often as Regular Disruption. Against low will save undead? Regular disruption could activate 20,30,40, 50 TIMES as often.

This would make the Enchantment on the Green Steel Items something like Minor Disruption.

Devs, if the Disruption is to activate on less than 100% of the time, call it Minor Disruption please.

[Emili]

Think of it more like 1-3% of the time the undead gets no save. Even if he only fails his save on a 1, that 1-3% chance could take place on what would have been a roll of a 20.

Being denied a saving throw 3% of the time is a pretty big deal vs. an auto failed roll of a 1....... the 2 are not equal.


In all honesty tho.... when I read the threads name I thought there was a disruption weapon with a higher DC on it than what we have now.

greater disruption sounds more like a higher DC to me than basicly a vorpal + disrupter combo... which is what this sounds like.

Opp's Mt already summed up what I was going to say.

[Torilin]

I am also frustrated with the term Greater Disruption, there is nothing great about it. I was hoping of replacing my disruption bow with something really cool, now I just have a huge dps bow and I still have to carry disruption.

[Cinwulf]

I was under the impression that greater disruption was going to be something like DC23, if it's less effective than disruption, that's counter-intuitive to say the least.

Where was the data gathered on the greater disruption effect? What cr, type and number of mobs was used to determine it's 3%?

[QuantumFX]

A Higher DC disruption effect (Like a greater slaying arrow) is definately the way to go.