"Greater" Disruption

**bobbryan2** · 03-20-2008, 09:29 AM

Originally Posted by Talcyndl

Anyone have a +5 'regular' disruptor, that also does a huge amount of holy & good damage?

How is that relevant to the conversation?

**Laith** · 03-20-2008, 09:38 AM

Originally Posted by Talcyndl

Anyone have a +5 'regular' disruptor, that also does a huge amount of holy & good damage?

we're not talking about how good the overall weapon is. the weapon does good damage.
we're saying that Greater Disruption is worse than Disruption.

now if the effect were titled "3% Greater Disruption" (IE more similar to weighted or tendon slice) it might promise higher %-on-hit chance in the future. As it currently is, we have to assume that Greater Disruption will ALWAYS be only 3% chance on hit. That makes it worse than normal Disruption by default.

The higher DC save is completely irrelevant if the chance to proc isn't greater than 5%.

**Boulderun** · 03-20-2008, 10:28 AM

Have we established whether Greater Disruption has a save or not? It's been stated both ways here.

If it does have a save, even up around the 35 DC of the other effects, then it becomes laughably bad. If it hits, undead could still save on a 20 (5%), with a chance to save more often depending on the individual will save - ultimately dropping the "1-3%" success rate vs normal disruption even lower.

**Emili** · 03-20-2008, 11:11 AM

Originally Posted by Boulderun

Have we established whether Greater Disruption has a save or not? It's been stated both ways here.

If it does have a save, even up around the 35 DC of the other effects, then it becomes laughably bad. If it hits, undead could still save on a 20 (5&#37

, with a chance to save more often depending on the individual will save - ultimately dropping the "1-3%" success rate vs normal disruption even lower.

Wait? are you telling me ... the options are this.

Beat the undead to death via shear strength + 5 + 2d6 (Holy) +1d6 (Good) - attributes on a +5 Supreme Tyrant Green Steel Khopesh of Positive Energy (the crits do not come into play since undead do not crit) and we also have possible disruption chance every 33.3 swings on average with a possible chance for that disruption to happen every 20 swings + (dc35 - will) - 5%?

... or to use a holy (2d6) of greater undead bane (3d6) to beat the thing to death - I've a nice +3 holy battleaxe of undead bane (2d6) + (2d6) I use in lue of my Khopeshes for non disruptable undead btw ... or use a straight +2 true law khopesh disruptor which will average kill outright every 20 swings no less...

By far and large it seems to me the +5 Supreme Tyrant Green Steel Khopesh of Positive Energy is not as good a weapon as some to use on undead, thus having the greater disruption on it does little in my mind. To me the power of that weapon is in the bursting and blasting and would never be my choice to use it on undead.

**Boulderun** · 03-20-2008, 11:19 AM

The on-crit effects (good burst, good blast) do fire against undead and other crit immune things - they just don't suffer the basic damage multiplier. Same as a plain old flaming burst weapon.

Still, the main point remains - "Greater" Disruption is lame without a save, and significantly worse with a save.

**Talcyndl** · 03-20-2008, 01:20 PM

Originally Posted by bobbryan2

How is that relevant to the conversation?

How is it not? Because unless I'm mistaken, the third tier upgrade is not JUST the "Greater Disruption" effect.

**Cinwulf** · 03-20-2008, 01:28 PM

I'm pretty sure the topic of this thread was that "greater disruption" is worse than "disruption".

**Talcyndl** · 03-20-2008, 01:46 PM

Originally Posted by Cinwulf

I'm pretty sure the topic of this thread was that "greater disruption" is worse than "disruption".

The original post was complaining about crafting a "clearly inferior item."

To evaluate that claim, you kinda have to look at the complete set of effects - not just the "Greater Disruption" piece.

:shrug:

If people want to focus on the 'false advertising' part, fine. But that's not the [only] point made by the OP, or many others in this thread.

**MysticTheurge** · 03-20-2008, 01:47 PM

Originally Posted by Talcyndl

How is it not? Because unless I'm mistaken, the third tier upgrade is not JUST the "Greater Disruption" effect.

The third tier bonus is just Greater Disruption.

And it's not Greater than anything.

**Talcyndl** · 03-20-2008, 02:03 PM

Originally Posted by MysticTheurge

The third tier bonus is just Greater Disruption.

And it's not Greater than anything.

Not according to the Crafting Planner I have. It says the applicable tier 3 upgrade is "Good Blast (+4D6 on a 20, must confirm Crit) and Greater Disruption."

Can't personally confirm that, but...

**Laith** · 03-20-2008, 02:05 PM

Originally Posted by Talcyndl

The original post was complaining about crafting a "clearly inferior item."

the discussion has clearly been refined.

the positive+positive+positive bonus is Greater Disruption

the 3rd tier positive+dominion+material effect is Good Blast.

the two effects have nothing to do with each other, as I could craft many weapons that have one effect but not the other.

**JFeenstra** · 03-20-2008, 02:07 PM

Originally Posted by Talcyndl

Not according to the Crafting Planner I have. It says the applicable tier 3 upgrade is "Good Blast (+4D6 on a 20, must confirm Crit) and Greater Disruption."

Can't personally confirm that, but...

you're correct, the t3 p-p-p upgrade is either good blast, Superior Devotion VI, +4Ac (insight), Cha +2 (exceptional), 30% Healing Amplification or Con +2 (exceptional) as well as greater disruption for a weapon

i was under the impression that greater disruption only activated on roll of 20, not a 3% chance per hit

**MysticTheurge** · 03-20-2008, 02:15 PM

Originally Posted by Talcyndl

Not according to the Crafting Planner I have. It says the applicable tier 3 upgrade is "Good Blast (+4D6 on a 20, must confirm Crit) and Greater Disruption."

Can't personally confirm that, but...

There is a third tier power which is Good Blast.

The +/+/+ bonus is just Greater Disruption.

You can make Good Blast items which are not Greater Disruption. You can make Greater Disruption items which are not Good Blast.

**bobbryan2** · 03-20-2008, 02:16 PM

Originally Posted by Talcyndl

Not according to the Crafting Planner I have. It says the applicable tier 3 upgrade is "Good Blast (+4D6 on a 20, must confirm Crit) and Greater Disruption."

Can't personally confirm that, but...

Your crafter planner is missing the nuances of the fact that the two are relatively independant of each other. You can make greater disruption without the good blast, and you can make good blast without getting greater disruption.

This discussion is based on the fact that Greater Disruption is worse than disruption, no matter how much you would try to cloud the issue by saying... 'yeah well, the other attributes are nice to.'

The fact of that matter is that you could make a greater disruption kama that only had improved devotion VI, greater devotion VI, and (presumably) superior devotion VI on it.

Now... tell me how awesome greater disruption is on that weapon.

**Talcyndl** · 03-20-2008, 02:22 PM

Originally Posted by Laith

the discussion has clearly been refined.

the positive+positive+positive bonus is Greater Disruption

the 3rd tier positive+dominion+material effect is Good Blast.

the two effects have nothing to do with each other, as I could craft many weapons that have one effect but not the other.

Sorry, I missed the memo regarding the "refined" topic of discussion in the thread.

As for your points...

You can't choose Greater Disruption by itself. It is grouped with other effects. So to evaluate the worth (Ie, whether in the OP's words it creates a "clearly inferior item" you have to look at the other effects.

I'd guess the vast majority of folks that are building a weapon that will have the Greater Disruption effect will be getting the Good Blast/GD effect at third tier. That's appears to be what the OP is complaining about.

If not, then you can also choose +2 to Wisdom or Charisma, 30% Healing Applification, +4 AC or Sup. Devotion 6. All kinda nice effects, although on a weapon not so much (other than maybe for a cleric).

**Talcyndl** · 03-20-2008, 02:29 PM

Wow aren't we all talking past each other.

We all agree that it is impossible to perform a third tier upgrade that is JUST Greater Disruption without any other effect. Right?

Ok then, so let's evaluate it compared to the other "extra effects." Not compared to regular disruption effect.

**bobbryan2** · 03-20-2008, 02:33 PM

Originally Posted by Talcyndl

Wow aren't we all talking past each other.

We all agree that it is impossible to perform a third tier upgrade that is JUST Greater Disruption without any other effect. Right?

Ok then, so let's evaluate it compared to the other "extra effects." Not compared to regular disruption effect.

And you can start a new thread comparing greater disruption with Incineration or the like. But I think it's a valid point that Greater disruption is worse than regular disruption. Your entire tangent that Greater Disruption is balanced within the bonuses of the raid crafting loot system is completely irrelevant to the conversation that's going on.

I 'would' add that I think things like Lightning Strike and Incineration are HUGELY more effective than Greater Disruption, but that isn't even the point.

**Laith** · 03-20-2008, 02:34 PM

Originally Posted by Talcyndl

We all agree that it is impossible to perform a third tier upgrade that is JUST Greater Disruption without any other effect. Right?

Ok then, so let's evaluate it compared to the other "extra effects." Not compared to regular disruption effect

and you think creating a brand new effect called "Greater Disruption" and making it statistically inferior to "Disruption" is a balancer?

It's fine to make an effect that's less than disruption and consider it "balancing". But if you're going to make it weaker, don't go and call it Greater. As it currently stands, it appears that someone at turbine doesn't have a basic handle on how saves and DCs work (or at least missed this one).

**Talcyndl** · 03-20-2008, 02:49 PM

Originally Posted by Laith

and you think creating a brand new effect called "Greater Disruption" and making it statistically inferior to "Disruption" is the solution?

As I said, I could care less about the description/'false advertising' issue. If someone wants to complain about that, fine. More power to you. Not a biggie for me.

But claiming that a particular Tier three upgrade is useless or "clearly inferior" by only looking at one of the two effects seems kinda silly.

And on that note...

**Laith** · 03-20-2008, 02:54 PM

Originally Posted by Talcyndl

As I said, I could care less about the description/'false advertising' issue. If someone wants to complain about that, fine. More power to you. Not a biggie for me.

i would have to assume, by rereading the OP, that this is EXACTLY what the OP had in mind.

the OP had aimed to make a weapon that was better at disrupting than her Disrupton weapon.
the OP assumed an effect titled "Greater Disruption" would do just that.
the OP was mistaken.
the OP quickly realized that the weapon created was, infact, inferior to her normal Disruption weapon for her purposes.

as a matter of fact, if Greater Disruption WAS better than Disruption, i'd be willing to bet that very few would bother putting MDP-holy damage effects on them. Who cares about the damage done by an insta-kill weapon?

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