"Greater" Disruption

[Gruntus]

Think the "Greater Disruption" is just refering to the fact that its a DC35 save vs a DC14 as with regular disruption. But really think about it guys, I you had a fully upgraded 3rd teir weapon with holy/positive all the way AND had a full time DC35 diruption option it would be severly overpowered. Almost EVERY time the greater disruption goes off it disrupts. It may only be 3% or so but it always lands. Same with the Disruption Guard on the items. Maybe they should have named it Greater every-now-and-then Dispuption but it is still Greater due to the crazy high DC of it. i have a fully upgraded Khopesh and after seeing the damage string on a 15d6 crit I just couldnt get upset about the fact that it doesnt disrupt on every hit. And if you had carefully read the discription you would have understood that it wasnt an every hit type of effect like regular disruption.

http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/e...nShot00089.jpg


See.

[MysticTheurge]

It may only be 3% or so but it always lands.

Please see above post as to why this is really "lesser disruption."

[Gruntus]

You guys can play on words all day. FACT is they call it Greater because of the save NOT the frequency of disrupts like you wish it was. Just saying you are taking the Greater out of text. Read the description. Its termonology is based on the save not the frequency no matter how much we wish it was the opposite.

[Laith]

we get it Gruntus... unfortunately making it go from 100% on hit to 3% on hit means much more than any amount of DC raise.

If Disruption was DC1, it'd STILL succeed 5% of the time.

It'd have to be around 10%+ at the very least to be an improvement.

[Vhlad]

People aren't good at math/statistics. The whole 3% proc rate but NO SAVE!!! vs only guaranteed to work if they roll a 1 thing is quite humorous. If I don't laugh I'll cry.

[bobbryan2]

You guys can play on words all day. FACT is they call it Greater because of the save NOT the frequency of disrupts like you wish it was. Just saying you are taking the Greater out of text. Read the description. Its termonology is based on the save not the frequency no matter how much we wish it was the opposite.

Oooooh, I get it now.

In this context, Greater means horribly worse. Gotcha... I was taking that word out of context.

[Riggs]

Tier 3 effects land too little overall.

Seriously...the fact that a 24 large ingredients (plus cells and shards), or even 12 large ingredients, which given the 50% or so drop rate, means your running the pit fiend 24-48 times simeply to get a single upgraded item is a LOT. More than other raids.

Saying that it is even possible that the special effect at tier 3 can even land only 1% of the time....and that in many cases the tier 3 effect is LESS powerful than many other weapons that are currently in the game is really, really underpowered for the effort involved.

Hmmm...1-3% chance of earth grab. Or just use a vorp. If you have a good to hit, and crit confirmation enhancements...again thats a 5% chance of a guarenteed kill - and earth grab isnt even guarenteed to kill if your just using damage.

Greater disruption, as above is less likely to kill undead than plain old disruption.

Air guard - yes haste is nice...but since most people are hasted in groups much of the time anyway...and knockdown might be nice...if it landed a lot, but unless it is hitting monsters 50% of the time...(unlike whirlwind effects of air elementals that hit 100% of the time, even if you save.)

The damage ones seem nice, except most mod 6 monsters(devils) are immune or resistant to all but 1 element. And only a single upgrade path will make a weapon that gets past the pit fiend dr. One.

Unholy is good for 2 quests in the game (purge the heretics really should count though), and slay living is nice, but a low chance means other weapons are probably just as good.

Some of the effects are really nice, like adding to your skills, spell points, hit points. But the 'special' tier 3 effects, given that this is the top end high level raid are underpowered. The fact that you can point to most tier 3 weapons and say "Well it is good in one case, but most times other weapons you already have are better" is a really underwhelming benefit to having to run the shroud 2 dozen times.

Long story short - the rate of a special effect landing should be at least 5%, and probably more. 10% might be a bit high, but 7-8% is probably a good number where people would actually be excited about using a weapon.

[Riggs]

People aren't good at math/statistics. The whole 3% proc rate but NO SAVE!!! vs only guaranteed to work if they roll a 1 thing is quite humorous. If I don't laugh I'll cry.

Indeed.

Oh wait...your saying that the 3% chance, which is guarenteed...needs no roll so its better?

Umm...not to point out say...the obvious...but any % chance means a roll of...the percent 'dice' rather than the d20 'die'...

So how is 1-3% better than 5% again? Please go on.

(Oh and not all undead have a high will save, so on some undead a 'regular' disrupting weapon will land much more than 5% of the time...so...umm....yeah.)

[geoffhanna]

How about "Greater Disruption Guard"?

[artvan_delet]

I'll agree greater disruption might be a misnomer. But that's about it. You get a holy, pure good burst, pure good blast weapon that also has some disruption on it and a true rez clickie. That's an excellent weapon. If you made this "greater disruption" the same as regular disruption, this weapon would be ridiculous. I for one think this weapon's ok.

[Andah]

I'll agree greater disruption might be a misnomer. But that's about it. You get a holy, pure good burst, pure good blast weapon that also has some disruption on it and a true rez clickie. That's an excellent weapon. If you made this "greater disruption" the same as regular disruption, this weapon would be ridiculous. I for one think this weapon's ok.

How would it be ridiculous when the longsword from the abbot does the same thing to demons that this would do to undead, but also can hit non-evil targets for 2d6 instead of 1? Well, it doesn't have the rez clickie, but let's face it, most elite toons in the game right now have either a rez ring or can UMD scrolls. Just food for thought. I've never /had/ to use it, maybe if True Ressurection did something notably better... like brought you back without the death penalty or something :P

Green Steel items should be on par with other raid loot in the game.

Think the "Greater Disruption" is just refering to the fact that its a DC35 save vs a DC14 as with regular disruption. But really think about it guys, I you had a fully upgraded 3rd teir weapon with holy/positive all the way AND had a full time DC35 diruption option it would be severly overpowered. Almost EVERY time the greater disruption goes off it disrupts. It may only be 3% or so but it always lands. Same with the Disruption Guard on the items. Maybe they should have named it Greater every-now-and-then Dispuption but it is still Greater due to the crazy high DC of it. i have a fully upgraded Khopesh and after seeing the damage string on a 15d6 crit I just couldnt get upset about the fact that it doesnt disrupt on every hit. And if you had carefully read the discription you would have understood that it wasnt an every hit type of effect like regular disruption.

http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/e...nShot00089.jpg


See.

There certainly wasn't any screenies when I started building that weapon, and I didn't bother looking after I saw GREATER disruption. If it was Disruption Burst or Lesser Disruption, I would've gone for something completely different. I have a +3 Disruptor already, I don't need something that's worse than that when I already hit everything in the game on a 2 anyway :P

[BlueLightBandit]

Just playing devils advocate...

What happens when an undead mobs fort save is higher than 14... say 15... and it rolls a 1 against disruption. Does it fail it's save because it rolled a 1, or does it make it's save because it's combined roll is a 16?

If it's the former, then Greater Disruption is simply a poor moniker. (Very much like the poor descriptions that DDO is full of.
If it's the latter, then Greater Disruption is better against higher level undead mobs because 1-3% of the time they will disrupt compared to 0%.

[MysticTheurge]

How about "Greater Disruption Guard"?

Well, it sure is greater than all the other disruption guards out there.

[Vhlad]

Indeed.

Oh wait...your saying that the 3% chance, which is guarenteed...needs no roll so its better?

No.

[Emili]

Just playing devils advocate...

What happens when an undead mobs fort save is higher than 14... say 15... and it rolls a 1 against disruption. Does it fail it's save because it rolled a 1, or does it make it's save because it's combined roll is a 16?

If it's the former, then Greater Disruption is simply a poor moniker. (Very much like the poor descriptions that DDO is full of.
If it's the latter, then Greater Disruption is better against higher level undead mobs because 1-3% of the time they will disrupt compared to 0%.

Rolling a one on a save is always a fail... It's DnD core, your Fort, Reflex and Will could be in the stratosphere a roll of one shall be always a fail, if not then it's not DnD.

[Aesop]

Just playing devils advocate...

What happens when an undead mobs fort save is higher than 14... say 15... and it rolls a 1 against disruption. Does it fail it's save because it rolled a 1, or does it make it's save because it's combined roll is a 16?

If it's the former, then Greater Disruption is simply a poor moniker. (Very much like the poor descriptions that DDO is full of.
If it's the latter, then Greater Disruption is better against higher level undead mobs because 1-3% of the time they will disrupt compared to 0%.

There is only 1 class currently in the books that breaks this mold of 1 is always a failure... that's the Knight which is not implemented... and its a HIGH level ability.

otherwise in DnD a 1 on an Attack or Save is a failure

Aesop

[Grond]

But even if normal disruption is 5% for the roll of 1 on the save, you're also assuming that you never miss. Factor in the miss percentage and things start to swing in favor of the greater disruption on higher ac mobs. And any number crunching assumes the "1-3%" is correct and not skewed by the 'watched pot never boils' syndrome.

[MysticTheurge]

Factor in the miss percentage and things start to swing in favor of the greater disruption on higher ac mobs.

No it doesn't.

Disruption is auto-kill on 5% of undead creatures that are hit with the weapon with a chance to kill on more of those hits.

Greater Disruption is auto-kill on 1-3% of undead creatures that are hit with the weapon.

Both things are only happening on the hits. How often you hit and how often you miss is irrelevant when comparing the two. Yes, they'll both be more powerful in the hands of someone who hits more often than in the hands of someone who hits less frequently. But for a given person, Disruption is always more powerful than Greater Disruption.

[bobbryan2]

But even if normal disruption is 5% for the roll of 1 on the save, you're also assuming that you never miss. Factor in the miss percentage and things start to swing in favor of the greater disruption on higher ac mobs. And any number crunching assumes the "1-3%" is correct and not skewed by the 'watched pot never boils' syndrome.

Sure.. if you conveniently forget that the greater disruption has to actually hit as well.

[Talcyndl]

Anyone have a +5 'regular' disruptor, that also does a huge amount of holy & good damage?