PC and the Sunshine Band

[satya_sai]

This morning I was reading the thread about voice chat and I was about to respond when I realized my response was about a topic that likely deserves it's own thread.

I feel that in the last year or so, I have been witness to a plague of societal problems arising from the "happy, nicey-nice, good times for all" Politically Correct Societal Sunshine, school of thought. At high levels, ddo seems to have a player retention issue...and I think this is an important social situation that has server (and perhaps game) - wide implications which must be faced.

First: Regarding the voice chat
I noticed in the course of reading this thread that many of you talked about the bad experiences that you've had in voice chat.
I too have been victim to the crime of the obnoxious voice chatter that has ruined the ddo (and pug) experience for the entire party.
So my question here is: Why do you accept it?
Do you think you're being polite by allowing someone to persist in this sort of behavior?
Do you think it's nice to allow the other five members of the party to be subject to this for the amount of time it takes to complete a quest?
I don't. I think it's completely and absolutely rude. I think the party member should be told immediately and succinctly that they are disrupting a party with their voice chatting and that they should stop...and if they refuse... they should be asked to leave or dropped from the party when possible. I think this is the responsibility of the person with the star to address this behavior for the good of the party immediately.
I don't care if they are a child. I don't care about any of the reasons they have to behave in that way. They must be told to stop.
I know that many of you are gasping inside at the mere thought that anyone could be so callous and cold and rude....
but let me tell you what.... without consequences, people DO NOT alter their behavior.
This obnoxious voice chat will go on and on in party after party and propagate itself until it becomes commonplace. (and I think we're seeing that now).
And this doesn't apply to only voice chat... there are a myriad of problem game-play behaviors propagating themselves in just this way.
Please, do the community a favor, and address the problem behavior with the person doing it directly and immediately.

further: you're NOT being nice by going along with it and then thinking bad thoughts about someone because of their behavior.
These people often want to fit into the social part of this game as well and your "niceness" can actually be very hurtful to someone else... especially when left unchecked until another party member explodes at them.

Second: A game, by definition, is a competitive activity.

I'm not sure at what point people in this game decided that it was a bad thing to compete or excel in the competition of this GAME.
Games are pastimes and social activities but the entire point in any game is to develop and execute a competitive strategy.
Someone in this game is going to be better than you at this game.
Someone in this game is going to do something better than you can do it.
Are you going to cry about it? is it going to wound your psyche to have the knowledge that someone did something good?
or are you going to use that person and that knowledge to LEARN HOW TO BECOME A BETTER PLAYER?

Winning isn't a bad thing. Excelling isn't a bad thing. Sharing your accomplishments isn't always arrogant.
and ELITE isn't a dirty word.
That's why the quest difficulties are labeled: Normal, Hard and ELITE.

The removal of these things has a very, very detrimental effect to the gaming society at large.
When there's nothing left to achieve, there's nothing left to do.
When you remove people's achievements, you remove their reason to be here.
When people can't win, people aren't going to play.

And beyond that, I have no idea why people are not allowed to post their accomplishments on these forums anymore.

and Finally: Some of us are here to play the game.
We aren't here to have dance parties.
We aren't here to role-play
We aren't here to be everyone's friend and pal.
We aren't here to make movies about how cute our toons look.
We aren't here to make sure everyone's inner child is not damaged and
We aren't here to make sure everyone feels warm and fuzzy inside.
AND THAT'S NOT A BAD THING.
and further...what makes people feel good isn't any of these things... it's accomplishment, it's learning, and it's acceptance.

that's my two cents...
so please....FEEL FREE TO FLAME THIS POST if you don't agree. I CAN TAKE IT.

[Scarsgaard]

RawwwRRRRRR... She-Ra!!!!

LOLOL...

Agreeing.. but as we all know.. theire are whiners and weiners in every bowl o'beans...

I guess it comes down to /squelch, /ignore... and reduce volume. I work with my friend lists, and when I meet a good PUGer they get on my good list and when I meet anoth Capt.Craptastic.. well, they get on the other list.

I know that I'm on a pile of lists too, and I talk sometimes too much (usually when the quest is another boring run just for xp), and hell... I don't really care if a few people dislike me... that's no different than r/l.

As for PC Values... LOLOL... I won't run with those kinds of folkes... they don'y even measure on the human scale... persona no grata.

[Renegade66]

Uh, signed and signed again. It just goes to show how such a few people can shove their goals for social order down people's throats until the rest of us get tired of fighting it and instead either conform and/or get bored and then leave. Even one person with little to no interest or impact in gameplay itself can send an MMO in this direction and I'm afraid has done so to our beloved DDO. Life was so good before. Yes it was a bit raw and yes people bragged about being elite and finally yes people got butt-hurt about not being as good as those elite players, but so what? Competition is what makes sports and games interesting and worthwhile. Take that away and you're left in search of another game that will provide that level of competition. I absolutely loath that one person and a mob of sheepish followers have allowed this change and that they prosper because of it. I hate that they sit back in self admiration of their accomplishment when the end result of that effort has been zero impact to the game itself and nothing short of destruction to all that was fun for the DDO boards. Turbine should wake up and support the competition and promote it instead of hiring Nazis to censor posts and quash those looking to add competition and excitement to the game. If they don't. they'll continue to see their playerbase erode and revenues accordingly.

[Scarsgaard]

The funny thing is that in r/l the PC people are powerless and ineffectual... only in an anonymous world, where they can cower behind the safety of a monitor are they capable of slowly choking the joy out of things.

As most folkes know.. I'm not nearly as angry or as wackyin r/l as people think, and that my appearance works wonders to create mischief when the opportunity is given.

Slashed tires? Fat lip? Pushed into wall? Eye drops in your drink? Heck... that's just the beginning, and the whole time you're seeking justice, I'm looking the nice polite blonde male rogue... works wonders..

..so what do I think of people trying to make the world a dull personality-less PC sewer? I say, lets put scorpuions in their bed, poison their pets, spray paint their clothes with Fur is Murder and shove potatos in their tail pipe (I'm not talking cars)...

Being too nice is as evil as being too bad... balance in everything.

In other words.. if you're going to walk the old lady across the road.. take her purse... good n'evil

[Phalkhan]

We aren't here to role-play

UMM D&D is Roleplay ..says so on the cover... so hence any game with the DnD name is roleplay based... now in a MMO you have to cater to all kinds and if you do not RP ..cool, but hey don't bash it, casue without RP you would be playing WoW, or LotRO... NOT DnD... there is a actually a decent population of RPers here.. they may not RP everytime they play ..but I have seen some very good "dedicated players" ( who BTW have crashed thru dungeons that would leave the most "uber built, twinked out" character asking " are you looking for a guild" if not just blind invite) and in no way does RP mean " not here to play"

GET IT !?
GOT IT !?
GOOD!!

other then the outburst of "you have to play my way" at the end of your post agreed( unless I misread, if so .. go **** yourself anyway )

..annoying talkers are nothing but the yappy dogs of the MMO world... so you take em outside, give em a milkbone, and close and lock the door ..AKA boot from groups.. I have and will do so again .. and I have even been booted from groups cause my "language is offensive".. I am fine with that ..... after all said "language" can be offensive to some... ( and if you are the ones who did .... I LOVE YOU !!! really I do ..now look at my nice shinny .... AHH HAA got em in the back , I love bluff checks)...if they send tells picking a fight ... "squelch" works for all.


Now quite simply ..if you come down on a noob..cause they are a noob, and do not know better ...all you are doing is showing how weak you actually are. It doesn't take much to watch bad things happen and comment on it ...it takes alot to watch bad thigs happen and then to fix/stop em.

Sorry Scars...would love to see a PC world..but that by by no means I am innefectual in RL..have 2 homes ( both paid off)and still keep myself in "marksman shape" at the range once a week.... but only cause I know a PC world just ain't gonna happen, so I intend to "get it before you".

[Scarsgaard]

I'll be honest...

I used to be a RPer in both PnP and NWN for years. I loved it and I'll never knock a RPer... in many ways I admire a good RPer and under the right circumstances I'll even join them.

I find the discipline of creating a character and maintaining it's identity, under all conditions to be highly immersive and fun... but to me, DDO does not lend itself very well to true RPing, when compared to NWN. My reason is this... in NWN a module can be built by a DM, the DM client lends itself with excellence to actually creating character driven stories and a vibrant gamescape. DDO does not do this well. People are limited to interacting in a staid environment where the NPCs are not in a Dms hands.. the stories are already done and to me, a person who really wants to create a breathing character in a liquid environment... DDO does not do this.

This might be the reason why you'll never hear me hack on a DDO RPer (except in jest). I'm taking part in this gaming aspect because DDO is too limited. Maybe when AOC starts I might add a bit more RP to my gaming (eg. after I stab someone I'll use the emote /**** and say "har har har... yer now fit fer the crows"), but in DDO... I work on reflexes, tactics and efficiency.

/peace

[Clay]

UMM D&D is Roleplay ..says so on the cover... so hence any game with the DnD name is roleplay based... now in a MMO you have to cater to all kinds and if you do not RP ..cool, but hey don't bash it, casue without RP you would be playing WoW, or LotRO... NOT DnD... there is a actually a decent population of RPers here.. they may not RP everytime they play ..but I have seen some very good "dedicated players" ( who BTW have crashed thru dungeons that would leave the most "uber built, twinked out" character asking " are you looking for a guild" if not just blind invite) and in no way does RP mean " not here to play"

GET IT !?
GOT IT !?
GOOD!!

other then the outburst of "you have to play my way" at the end of your post agreed( unless I misread, if so .. go **** yourself anyway )

..annoying talkers are nothing but the yappy dogs of the MMO world... so you take em outside, give em a milkbone, and close and lock the door ..AKA boot from groups.. I have and will do so again .. and I have even been booted from groups cause my "language is offensive".. I am fine with that ..... after all said "language" can be offensive to some... ( and if you are the ones who did .... I LOVE YOU !!! really I do ..now look at my nice shinny .... AHH HAA got em in the back , I love bluff checks)...if they send tells picking a fight ... "squelch" works for all.


Now quite simply ..if you come down on a noob..cause they are a noob, and do not know better ...all you are doing is showing how weak you actually are. It doesn't take much to watch bad things happen and comment on it ...it takes alot to watch bad thigs happen and then to fix/stop em.

Sorry Scars...would love to see a PC world..but that by by no means I am innefectual in RL..have 2 homes ( both paid off)and still keep myself in "marksman shape" at the range once a week.... but only cause I know a PC world just ain't gonna happen, so I intend to "get it before you".

Gary Gygax didn't "role-play". He said so himself in an interview I read. And moreover, readily apparent anytime you step in Deleras.

[satya_sai]

now in a MMO you have to cater to all kinds and if you do not RP ..cool, but hey don't bash it, casue without RP you would be playing WoW, or LotRO... NOT DnD... there is a actually a decent population of RPers here.. they may not RP everytime they play ..but I have seen some very good "dedicated players" ( who BTW have crashed thru dungeons that would leave the most "uber built, twinked out" character asking " are you looking for a guild" if not just blind invite) and in no way does RP mean " not here to play"

GET IT !?
GOT IT !?
GOOD!!

other then the outburst of "you have to play my way" at the end of your post agreed( unless I misread, if so .. go **** yourself anyway )

Actually what I did say is:

SOME of us are NOT here to roleplay and that is ok.
It's actually the complete opposite of what you think I said which is, "It's not ok to roleplay".
The reason I said it is: I have never told someone that it is not ok for them to roleplay but I have been publicly chastised in general chat for not roleplaying in the arcane shop in house Jorasco when I was talking to someone about beer.

I do appreciate the information that DnD is a roleplaying game and DDO should be considered one since it uses the DnD name...
I did LEARN from your post and I do appreciate the fact that you are given the right to post something with an opinion that differs from mine.

..if you come down on a noob..cause they are a noob, and do not know better ...all you are doing is showing how weak you actually are. It doesn't take much to watch bad things happen and comment on it ...it takes alot to watch bad thigs happen and then to fix/stop em.

I want to say that I don't intend to encourage people to "come down" on anyone.
What I do want to encourage them to do is to tell the "noob" or whoever, immediately and tactfully that their behavior is inappropriate.. and to show them what is appropriate.
And I think that it apparently does take much to watch bad things and comment tactfully on it ... because people don't seem to do it... Instead they comment when the person is gone or behind their back.
And I also think that tactfully commenting on inappropriate behavior is the tool that will server to fix/stop it.
Social pressure is quite a catalyst for change.

[Renegade66]

I think one of the key points Satya makes is that "Elite" used to not be a dirty word and sharing your accomplishments wasn't scorned upon. It wasn't until we were infiltrated by a tree hugging, goody goody, with too much free time on their hands who made it their personal quest to rid DDO of all that could be considered societal incorrectness in that person's opinion. Heaven forbid anyone actually having to face the fact that they might not be as good at DDO as some others or that we don't all have the same opinion on a controversal topic. All this person did in rallying for goodness, was to take the focus off what's important - fun and the gameplay itself, and divert it to ridding the forums of interesting banter and base competition. The point is that Turbine choosing to give creedance to this pied piper from hell have only hurt the playerbase as a whole and in turn their shareholder value.

[Scarsgaard]

Sorry Scars...would love to see a PC world..but that by by no means I am innefectual in RL..have 2 homes ( both paid off)and still keep myself in "marksman shape" at the range once a week.... but only cause I know a PC world just ain't gonna happen, so I intend to "get it before you".

LOL...

First and foremost, I hate bullies. I go out of my way to make them miserable.

Whether it is the person who preys on the weak or someone who tries to control societal norms by ending the joys of XMas in teh office or changing words like woman to womyn. Humour is humour, but anyone who tries to interfere in my world and impose their will on me, will quickly discover that they are never safe, and never free from my vengeance.

I'm not joking on this. For those who know me well in the game, and in r/l... I'm a great friend and a very sneaky, mean and cruel enemy. To me, that is a healthy way of life.

To be honest, Poltical Correctness has done some good. It has done it's best to reduce certain social institutions from being introduced to me and my children. It has made Racial, Gender and Religious epithets unpopular, and to me that is not only welcomed by me, but embraced. So PC has it's pros and cons. Because this is a gaming forum and it has it's rules I won't discuss my opinion openly but will discuss through PMs if someone enjoys that kind of discourse (just don't bring it up in a run... no time there).

Back to the bully thing. There is a lot in every social medium. I have myself done one cruel thing on the Xoriat Forums that I regret to this day... and yet the PC issue here is a form of bullying. The anti-bragging rules is bullying. The attacks on people for posting their opinion because it is not allbutterflies and flowers is bullying. The fact that people are limited in expressing their joy of this game because they are not PC is bullying. This is an instance where the so-called nice folkes are trying to impose rule through an inappropriate manner... call it what you will but there are a few factors here that are highly offensive.

But anyhow.. I'm getting to serious.. time to get back to fart jokes and fat rendering.

[sigtrent]

Irony = Rude people complaining that they arn't more widely accepted.

For me the key concept is that you can be competative without being a jerk about it. A lot of folks just don't comprehend when they are being a jerk, arn't willing to appologise for it, and insist that others accept thier jerkeyness withuout complaint or counteraction.

You think we should speak up and let people know when they are chatty and annoying. I agree, although I think you should be polite about it. I also think a certain amount of tollerance is also called for. We all have to play the game together and that means two things. Firstly we have to be willing to adjust our own behavior a bit not to **** everyone off, and secondly we need to tolerate a certain amount of human fault because all of us suffer from it.

Tuffman's current competition is a good example of competition where no one is being a jerk. The winner should get props for facing up and beating an interesting challenge. The truly elite don't need to brag or put people down. I don't care how big your epeen is, if you are being a jerk, your a jerk and I won't just sit around and accept it. Turbine has an interst in booting jerks from the board and so do I. Want to be a jerk? Go do it somewhere else. Id rather have a smaller game that is jerk free than a big one chock full of em.

On Games = Competition
Not all games are competative (aka one person agaisnt another). Games are always challenges, but many of them are personal challenges, not competative affairs. You can turn any game into a competition but that is a personal choice unless the game is set up as a competition, and even then there is a spirit of "sportsmanship" that generaly makes the game more pleasurable for all involved. Winners should be honored, but loosers should not be disgraced unless they disgrace themselves.

If you really consider yourself Elite go do some research on the idea of "Good Sportsmanship" and the philosophy behind it. True competative play does not require insults or put downs, in fact they only demean true competition and reflect a juvinile and insecure emotional state. You can intentionaly be juvinile and insecure if you like, but don't expect me to just accept it.

Your final point
We are here to do whatever the heck we want to do here within the guildelines of the folks running the game. If I want to have a silly RP event you don't hae to come. You want to solo the abbot, you go for it. Don't give me **** about how I have fun and I won't give you **** about how you have fun.

My final point
Being rude has consiquences. You get excluded from social groups where people don't want to listen to your BS. You either take a step back and consider why you are getting silenced, or you ignore the message and go try to find someone who likes listening to you put them down (good luck with that). Whining about how folks don't want to hear you trash talking them about how much they suck is funny because trash talking sucks and deserves to get squelched. Your first point and your thrird point are contradictory to a large extent.

[sigtrent]

Back to the bully thing. There is a lot in every social medium. I have myself done one cruel thing on the Xoriat Forums that I regret to this day... and yet the PC issue here is a form of bullying. The anti-bragging rules is bullying. The attacks on people for posting their opinion because it is not allbutterflies and flowers is bullying. The fact that people are limited in expressing their joy of this game because they are not PC is bullying. This is an instance where the so-called nice folkes are trying to impose rule through an inappropriate manner... call it what you will but there are a few factors here that are highly offensive.

It's all about balance. There is nothing wrong with competition and joy. But when you turn it all nasty and twist the knife on the loosers its going to pull some serious flack. And then if folks protest at the poster being a jerk (because that is what they are indeed doing) the OP gets all indignant and says "You cant tell me I cant say that!"... lol

They complain that thier free speach is impinged when others speak agaisnt what they said. It doesn't work that way. You want to say your piece, prepare to accept the backwash. You want to throw some fire, get your fire retardant underware out and have some respect for contrary opinions.

We can either all be polite and respect eachother, or we can all be jerks and flame one another. A lot of the "anti butterfly" folks can't stand the competition and want to be able to doll out the venom and get none in return.

Ultimately Turbine has an insentive not to allow us to sit in here and bad mouth one another so they just shut it down before it gets rolling. Their game, their forums, their rules. Some of us like it that way, some don't. Ultimately I'd wager there are many more that like the forums focused on game play and polite socializing than who want a constant flame fest.

I hate the term PC and the way it gets used. I find it irritating how anyone who wants to be an ass and gets called out on it raises up the PC specter as a kind of defense for what they have to say. "Your just PC", they say. When in fact what I hear is, "you don't agree with me so I'm going to make up an excuse so I don't have to actualy defend my statements on their merits."

[Phalkhan]

LOL...

First and foremost, I hate bullies. I go out of my way to make them miserable.


But anyhow.. I'm getting to serious.. time to get back to fart jokes and fat rendering.

Darn ..and I was hoping for something to finally dissagree with ya on Scars... but with an opener like that .. I am gonna have to search harder 'searches, rolls a 19, finds nothing...goes and kicks a puppy anyway'

LOL maybe I did misread the OP.....nope I got it right ..cept missed the part about posting accomplishments ( hmm that is a stupid rule IMHO)

again OP post is pretty much right on IMHO cept for the last paragraph..( little presumptious..and dripping with arrogance...but so am I most of the time)

and I have dibbs on the fat droppings..... Puppy dog fat makes good warforged lubricant

[Rowanheal]

Ok, who has the popcorn because I have the afternoon munchies...

I love voice chat... I love rp in DDO!

I have to admit, I have on occassion thrown my headset across the room in a pug... I mean honestly, where is the off button!

I love this game and I love most of the people in it... but please for the love of gods Hush every once in a while!

My favs are the ones who think they know what they are doing but clearly haven't a bloody clue.

I get all kinds of hot under the collar about a guy choosing to make a girl feel uncomfy though. I'll let you guys handle the regular bullies, but male predators, which is how I see them, just get me all kinds of madder than a wet hornet.

Overall we are a great group... well except for those Xoratians! I kid I kid...maybe?

See ya in Stormreach,

-R

[Scarsgaard]

I will say this...

There are a few Guilds out there that I admire. They never brag. They never actually say anything and they keep to their own. I have seen them Flame others on these forums (I dig their burns even when it's me they are roasting..lol)... and I will always hold them in high regard.

I won't mention them because they never talk about themselves, and to draw attention to these various guilds might be the one thing that they don't want. Anyhow, they know my opinion and I respect that.

I have no beef on how anyone plays. I don't care about much. To me the forums are about fun and trolling mischief. Most of the time, it is just good ol'fun. And sometimes it is a freaking disaster.

So here I'm going to relate an icky PUG that I was on this weekend.

We had a great party, 2 casters, a rogue, 2 barbs and a good cleric. The perfect mix, some would say. The problem was the leader. This guy has done the quest hundreds of times, but due to his inept puzzling and maze skills he caused all the casters to wipe in the maze... flubbed the water and had to go to town and get more pots because he ran out and worst of all, he made a 30 minute run (13min is the servers best) into an hour.

This guy was me!

Frm here I will thank the many folkes who ran with me for having patience. While I did warn that I'm no expert on the maze (I usually just follow the leader and kill stuff), the group did have the patience to stick it through and in the end we succeeded. Now I know how to do all the parts, and I'm sure that in the future I'll have the maze down pat too. Anyhow, thanks for putting up with my skills in that dungeon, it wasn't the worst run evah but it was a smooth Drak run either.

THX

[Uamhas]

Actually, there is a place to post achievements.Roleplaying is not a dirty word, ( :P @ Clay) and one more thing...

[Scarsgaard]

Actually, there is a place to post achievements.Roleplaying is not a dirty word, ( :P @ Clay) and one more thing...

lolol...

Kitten unhappy... nothing funnier than a wet miserable cat getting a bath Except maybe a shower!

It's quite amusing to close them in the glass shower, put it on warm and watch them cry and moan... and the funniest part is that their cries almost sound like Why Me?

My only answer... because yer covered in car oil and doggy doo ya cat.. yer not sleeping on my bed like that....lol

[Renegade66]

I had a cat once long ago. He used to love it when I would throw him up against the screen door then slam the sliding glass door shut and watch him for hours. Hmmm, wait a minute. Maybe it was me that loved it. Oh well, in any event, those were some good times. Considering the otherwise lack of entertainment value of a cat, I don't really think he minded.

[sigtrent]

I think one of the key points Satya makes is that "Elite" used to not be a dirty word and sharing your accomplishments wasn't scorned upon.

Elite was dragged through the mud by those who fit the description but failed to have any respect at all for those who did not. If you push it too far and arn't in a position of power... you get the axe. Sharing accomplishments got the hammer because too may people felt it was an excuse to talk smack about other people and generaly wanted to rub their victory in the face of thier competetors.

I genearally think of Renegade66 as a guy who is proud of his skills, not afraid to talk about them, but also rarely if ever crosses the line about putting other people down in the process. Basicaly a guy I can respect. There were certainly others that I didn't feel the same way about. People that **** in the punch bowl deserve what they have coming to them, its just a shame they ruin the punch for everyone in the process.

[Phalkhan]

Actually what I did say is:

SOME of us are NOT here to roleplay and that is ok.
It's actually the complete opposite of what you think I said which is, "It's not ok to roleplay".

OK sorry misintreprrted ya there.... ( but it does look like a dis to RPers even on reread to me... no biggie, just personal)


The reason I said it is: I have never told someone that it is not ok for them to roleplay but I have been publicly chastised in general chat for not roleplaying in the arcane shop in house Jorasco when I was talking to someone about beer.

just as bad as saying "RPers do not play" IMHO and they should of just blocked ya out instead of throwing a hissy... ( I hope ya gave as good as ya got.. NVM your Legion)

I do appreciate the information that DnD is a roleplaying game and DDO should be considered one since it uses the DnD name...
I did LEARN from your post and I do appreciate the fact that you are given the right to post something with an opinion that differs from mine.

agreed..on both accounts



I want to say that I don't intend to encourage people to "come down" on anyone.
What I do want to encourage them to do is to tell the "noob" or whoever, immediately and tactfully that their behavior is inappropriate.. and to show them what is appropriate.

actually didn't think You were coming down on 'noobs'... most Legion members think highly of themselvs ( most times well deserved IMO) and the only bad experience I have had with a legion member in game was my own fault..and they made me talk to em wether I liked it or not ( too noob to know /squelch at the time) and guess what ..they got me to see where I was being a bad player..and to melow out... that got MAD props from me BTW

And I think that it apparently does take much to watch bad things and comment tactfully on it ... because people don't seem to do it... Instead they comment when the person is gone or behind their back.

AMEN !!!!

And I also think that tactfully commenting on inappropriate behavior is the tool that will server to fix/stop it.
Social pressure is quite a catalyst for change.

it can be as long as all comments are constructive... "you suck" comments, or blanket assumptions that "all players/class must do this no alternatives"..just shows narrow mindedness and an in abality to think for ones self ( cause they were obviosly spoon fed this B.S. from somewhere) Not that any of the posters here are that way ... just a reminder to the lurkers.

Clay ,

then why are DnD books sold in the RPG section of Hastings, Barns & Nobles and in 'role playing' shops ?

Maybe we should "agree to disagree" here.. I do agree with ya most of the time BTW ( blunt direct talkers almost always get me to listen.. and you fit that bill )

Uamhas,
love the pic.... now that it is been 'brined' properlly can we cook it ?

directions on washing a cat..

open toilet lid...
get cat by scruff of the neck...
shove cat in tiolet ...
remove hands quickly and close lid fast... (this might take a few tries depending on age of cat)
flush continue to flush till cat is quite clean.. ( this can be assertained by complete silence )

now take said cat to taxidermist before spouce finds out what ya did ...