What exactly happened to Superior Two Weapon Fighting?

[Gornin]

Thanks for the info E.

[EspyLacopa]

Superior Two Weapon Fighting and Superior Two Handed Fighting were not released as we wished more time to consider their effects and determine whether or not it was desirable for them to exist.

And interestingly enough. . .Neither exist in PnP ^_^

[beeofdoom]

I don't see Superior THF as being too overpowering, however Superior TWF + Oversized TWF would be too much without adding more desirable feats for melee in general. Just oversized TWF by it self now *is* unbalancing vs the other melee styles. Being able to dual weild kopeshes and heavy picks is already too much.

Just to bring sword and boarders back in line with TWF'ers you'd need to implement Monkey Grip, or at least start implementing some of the advanced fighter/melee feats, Improved CE, improved Power Attack, (Severe Stunning Blow?), so folks have to make some actual choices in their feat selection. It's getting to the point where pure fighters are behind fighter/barb mixes simply because there aren't enough melee feats implemented.

And btw, when are fighters going to get Armor Mastery IV restored to their enhancement line? I've been waiting 3 module releases for a restoration of an enhancement level that *was in game* when I rolled up my 32 point build.

[The_Phenx]

STWF is not unique to DDO actually. It was in the splat books. I think what ended up happening is that the feat got mentioned by a dev once and the rest of us jumped on the bandwagon thinking it was going to come out this mod. I know I was one of them.

Who knows.. maybe the whole 5th attack slowdown (which never should have happened) caused a quick reversal? I don't know.

Feat was in the compendium at game launch. The only irritating thing to me about it is that I planned my toon around it. If they never implement it I wasted a lot of stat points starting with a base 17 dex (19 with +2 tome)... sigh.

And oversize twf isnt overpowering. You could use two large weaps before with only a -2 th and with a pureclass fighter spec'd right that wasnt much of a hinderance. Been dual weilding kopshs since 6th lvl, just have to sue high + weaps to compensate. It did allow for removal of spring attack however and addition of dragonmarks .

I could care less about superior if they would give me a reason for having stayed pure fighter... like maybe a crit multiplier or crit range enhancement like say the pure barbs got at lvl 14.

[The_Phenx]

Just to bring sword and boarders back in line with TWF'ers you'd need to implement Monkey Grip,

Hate to say it but... sword and board is about ac... not dps.. they aren't supposed to keep up. The trade off for less damage is more survivability.

[EspyLacopa]

Being able to dual weild kopeshes and heavy picks is already too much.

Meh.

Dual Wield Heavy Picks: 1d6 for 20/x4 crit
Dual Wield Light Picks: 1d4 for 20/x4 crit

Spend a feat and gain 1 average point of damage. That's even less than Weapon Spec.

As for the Khopesh. . .That's two feats spent. One for the proficiency, another for the oversized TWF. One feat gives higher crit mod (x3 over x2), the other gives 1 avg damage (equivalent of going from Shortsword 1d6 to Longsword 1d8)

Sounds fair enough for the investment required.

[DareDelvis]

Feat was in the compendium at game launch. The only irritating thing to me about it is that I planned my toon around it. If they never implement it I wasted a lot of stat points starting with a base 17 dex (19 with +2 tome)... sigh.

Exactly, +2 favor tome, +1 stat point at level 16, starting dex of 16...

Nothing is really ever game breaking but it is dissappointing to base a character around supposition that was thought to be closer to fact.

[EspyLacopa]

Exactly, +2 favor tome, +1 stat point at level 16, starting dex of 16...

Nothing is really ever game breaking but it is dissappointing to base a character around supposition that was thought to be closer to fact.

I still find it odd how they didn't do proper Dex requirements for GTWF. It's actually supposed to require 19 dexterity.

[MysticTheurge]

You do end up with an extra feat though.

Even if you "wasted" a few stat points.

[Jhoran]

"Superior Two Weapon Fighting and Superior Two Handed Fighting were not released as we wished more time to consider their effects and determine whether or not it was desirable for them to exist."

ouch.

wonder if i will end up regretting the 19 dex on my twf barb that i've been levelling these past few weeks

[Xaxx]

If they're not going to add something to the game, a dev shouldnt come out and state the stats needed for it now should they?

If they aren't putting it in the game, or even were ever debating about putting it in, why would any information be given on the specifics needed to obtain it. When someone comes out and gives me the required stats to obtain something, thats saying *ok this is comming heres how ya get it, go ahead and wait* Considering how close to the vest the devs for this game pretty much keep the details of everything close to the vest and only give us glimpses of future stuff, whenever someone comes strait out and says "heres how you get this" and then not implimenting it..... not exactly the best message to be sending your gamers. "ok guys heres some info *snicker* yeah we're gonna add *snort* a new *ROFL*..... while next they say *oh im sorry we cant give you any info except to say that there MIGHT be *yadayada* comming within the next few years.

good community relations there

[Angelus_dead]

I don't see Superior THF as being too overpowering, however Superior TWF + Oversized TWF would be too much without adding more desirable feats for melee in general. Just oversized TWF by it self now *is* unbalancing vs the other melee styles. Being able to dual weild kopeshes and heavy picks is already too much.

That's wrong. Oversized TWF has minimal effect on balance. Arguably, it is a mistake to even select that feat.

The result of taking the feat is you gain +2 on attack rolls when using a heavy weapon in the left hand. Compare it to the Weapon Focus feat, which gives you +1 on attack rolls regardless of weapon size. The majority of non-fighter characters do not consider it worthwhile to spend a feat on Weapon Focus to get +1, so spending a feat on OTWF for +2 is only slightly better.

In general, DDO has an increasing iterative-attack bonus which means that feats to increase your attack rolls are not worth it.

[Gornin]

If they're not going to add something to the game, a dev shouldnt come out and state the stats needed for it now should they?

If they aren't putting it in the game, or even were ever debating about putting it in, why would any information be given on the specifics needed to obtain it. When someone comes out and gives me the required stats to obtain something, thats saying *ok this is comming heres how ya get it, go ahead and wait* Considering how close to the vest the devs for this game pretty much keep the details of everything close to the vest and only give us glimpses of future stuff, whenever someone comes strait out and says "heres how you get this" and then not implimenting it..... not exactly the best message to be sending your gamers. "ok guys heres some info *snicker* yeah we're gonna add *snort* a new *ROFL*..... while next they say *oh im sorry we cant give you any info except to say that there MIGHT be *yadayada* comming within the next few years.

good community relations there

Not trying to picka fight with you here, just an observation. There was quite a bit of community outcry on these 2 feats due to the fact they are not DnD feats and the requirements were previously unknown and a few other things, so maybe the Devs were listening and thats why the are re-evaluating them. An answer sooner than today would have been better, but I am glad to have an answer.

I seriously doubt there were any shenanigans on the Devs part as they wouldn't have said they were going to do something and knowingly not going to follow through.

[MysticTheurge]

If they're not going to add something to the game, a dev shouldnt come out and state the stats needed for it now should they?

If they aren't putting it in the game, or even were ever debating about putting it in, why would any information be given on the specifics needed to obtain it.

good community relations there

I suspect they actually started debating it once they announced it on the Forums and got no small amount of feedback that adding such a feat would be a bad idea.

Which means that yes, that was good community relations.

[Gornin]

I suspect they actually started debating it once they announced it on the Forums and got no small amount of feedback that adding such a feat would be a bad idea.

Which means that yes, that was good community relations.

Stop agreeing with me , it makes you look bad.

[Angelus_dead]

If they're not going to add something to the game, a dev shouldnt come out and state the stats needed for it now should they?

Every time a game rule is changed, regardless of whether the rule had already been in effect or merely had been announced, the devs should give free respec tokens to all effected player characters.

DDO does not have the technical mechanism to respec stats, class levels, or skill points- but it should. Then the devs would be able to fix mistakes in the game rules without worrying that they'll upset players who already made irrevocable character choices based on the older rules.

[JFeenstra]

Source?

Cause it's not in the Feat Index.

(There is a Superior Two Weapon Fighting ability that some monsters have, which gives them no penalties for wielding two weapons. But that's completely different from what DDO was doing. And it's not a feat, that I know of.)

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x...pon%20Fighting

it's 'perfect' not 'superior'

[EspyLacopa]

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/lists/feats&tablefilter=Perfect%20Two-Weapon%20Fighting

it's 'perfect' not 'superior'

That's also an Epic Level Feat:

Perfect Two-Weapon Fighting [Epic]
Prerequisites
Dex 25, Greater Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Two-Weapon Fighting.

Benefit
You can make as many attacks with your off-hand weapon as with your primary weapon, using the same base attack bonus. You still take the normal penalties for fighting with two weapons.

Normal
Without this feat, you can only get a single attack with an off-hand weapon (or two attacks with an off-hand weapon if you have Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, or three attacks with an off-hand weapon if you have Greater Two-Weapon Fighting).

[Laith]

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x...pon%20Fighting

it's 'perfect' not 'superior'

actually, perfect TWF only has to do with the NUMBER of swings you get, not the two-weapon penalties (to-hit).

we already have perfect TWF now, once you purchase greater TWF. once you have gTWF, you swing you offhand with every attack animation (moving or standing).

this change occured in mod6, which is why i'm surprised that people complain about sTWF not coming: we HAVE the bonus it was going to give, but didn't have to pay a feat for it.

i have to assume the same for sTHF, but i can't confirm. are you guys getting glancing blows on your last animation?

[EspyLacopa]

actually, perfect TWF only has to do with the NUMBER of swings you get, not the two-weapon penalties (to-hit).

we already have perfect TWF now, once you purchase greater TWF. once you have gTWF, you swing you offhand with every attack animation (moving or standing).

this change occured in mod6, which is why i'm surprised that people complain about sTWF not coming: we HAVE the bonus it was going to give, but didn't have to pay a feat for it.

i have to assume the same for sTHF, but i can't confirm. are you guys getting glancing blows on your last animation?

Sure. But what if we get yet another extra attack at BAB +20?