What exactly happened to Superior Two Weapon Fighting?

[GeneralDiomedes]

Well, not unless they add the 'Extra Head' feat first as a prereq.

Extra Head

Your personality splits in two and manifests as a second head. After a brief argument and an agreement to floss regularly, each head decides to control the nearest arm. Your type changes to Aberration.

Prerequisite: Schizophrenia. Wide shoulders would be a bonus.

[MysticTheurge]

Sure. But what if we get yet another extra attack at BAB +20?

Then all would be right with the world. (Or at least with Two Weapon Fighting in DDO.)

And you would pick up Perfect Two Weapon Fighting as an Epic Feat.

[Laith]

Sure. But what if we get yet another extra attack at BAB +20?

you would pick up Perfect Two Weapon Fighting as an Epic Feat.

bingo.

who knows what kind of dex that would require though (dex25 in PnP)... it IS epic though, which has stat raising feats.
in any case, they already GAVE us what sTWF was originally going to give us. for free. it's odd that so few seemed to notice.

[beeofdoom]

Meh.

Dual Wield Heavy Picks: 1d6 for 20/x4 crit
Dual Wield Light Picks: 1d4 for 20/x4 crit

Spend a feat and gain 1 average point of damage. That's even less than Weapon Spec.

As for the Khopesh. . .That's two feats spent. One for the proficiency, another for the oversized TWF. One feat gives higher crit mod (x3 over x2), the other gives 1 avg damage (equivalent of going from Shortsword 1d6 to Longsword 1d8)

Sounds fair enough for the investment required.

That's a serious oversimplification of what Oversized 2-weapon fighting gives you. Aside from the moderate increase in damage from weilding a full-sized 1-handed weapon, you're also NOT taking the additional -2 to-hit penalty in the off hand for every single full-sized 1-handed weapon in game. In terms of only damage output, no, it's not all that unbalancing, however a single feat that effectively grants an off-hand +2 to hit with longsword, scimitar, kopesh, heavy mace, morningstar, heavy pick, warhammer, etc...PLUS not having to look for finessable versions of weapons that complement your main hand weapon is too good to pass up. It's on-par with the ill-proposed Weapon Alarcity feat that was for sword and board tanks.

[EspyLacopa]

That's a serious oversimplification of what Oversized 2-weapon fighting gives you. Aside from the moderate increase in damage from weilding a full-sized 1-handed weapon, you're also NOT taking the additional -2 to-hit penalty in the off hand for every single full-sized 1-handed weapon in game. In terms of only damage output, no, it's not all that unbalancing, however a single feat that effectively grants an off-hand +2 to hit with longsword, scimitar, kopesh, heavy mace, morningstar, heavy pick, warhammer, etc...PLUS not having to look for finessable versions of weapons that complement your main hand weapon is too good to pass up. It's on-par with the ill-proposed Weapon Alarcity feat that was for sword and board tanks.

Heavy Pick(1d6) combo with Light Pick(1d4): -2 dual wield penalty
Heavy Pick(1d6) combo with Heavy Pick(1d6) and OTWF: -2 dual wield penalty

Dwarven axe(1d10) combo with Handaxe(1d6): -2 dual wield penalty
Dwarven axe(1d10) combo with Dwarven axe(1d10) and OTWF: -2 dual wield penalty

Warhammer(1d8) combo with Light Hammer(1d4): -2 dual wield penalty
Warhammer(1d8) combo with Warhammer(1d8) and OTWF: -2 dual wield penalty

So. . .spend a feat and you up the damage of your off-hand weapon by 1-3 average points of damage per hit.

Finesse weapons? Unless you're talking Rapiers, they are ALL light, and as such can all be used as off-hand weapons w/o needing Oversized Two Weapon Fighting. And if you are. . .you're upgrading a Shortsword (1d6, 19-20 crit) to Rapier (1d6, 18-20 crit). That's only an increase of 1 to the crit range of the offhand weapon. That is where the balance is aimed, not at this perceived "+2 on all attacks!" nonsense.

[Angelus_dead]

So. . .spend a feat and you up the damage of your off-hand weapon by 1-3 average points of damage per hit.

The big advantage of OTWF is you can use an offhand weapon which has no similar equivalent in a light version: a khopesh instead of a kukri, or the Deathnip instead of a light pick.

However, large numbers of TWF barbarians were already using dual khopesh or dual deathnip before module 6. They soaked up the -2 attack penalty, and they could still choose to do so. OTWF doesn't improve damage very much.

[Xithos]

"Superior Two Weapon Fighting and Superior Two Handed Fighting were not released as we wished more time to consider their effects and determine whether or not it was desirable for them to exist."

ouch.

wonder if i will end up regretting the 19 dex on my twf barb that i've been levelling these past few weeks

I am definitely regretting starting my new ranger with 17 Dex; I could have dropped to 16 and bumped up my strength further. It seems that a few others like ourselves took a hit from mismanaged game development

[Big_Russ]

Superior Two Weapon Fighting and Superior Two Handed Fighting were not released as we wished more time to consider their effects and determine whether or not it was desirable for them to exist.

Thanks for the clarification, Eladrin.

Just my two CP, but it is DEFINITELY desirable for them to exist. With HP inflation what it has been, this will help most melee classes get a little closer to casters in game.

[MysticTheurge]

Just my two CP, but it is DEFINITELY desirable for them to exist. With HP inflation what it has been, this will help most melee classes get a little closer to casters in game.

While it is desirable for the announced effects of these two feats to exist, it is 100% undesirable for them to be attached to new, additional feats.

D&D requires a certain number of feats to be a fully proficient two weapon fighter. Since DDO does not offer people more feats than D&D it should not require more feats than D&D.

[Big_Russ]

To heck with TWF fighters--I'm concerned about my 12 Ranger/4 Fighter Tempest build.

Seriously, I was really looking forward to taking STWF at 15 or 16 (both fighter levels for me). I had the spot for it. I ended up taking extend and Spring Attack (Spring Attack was planned--I decided on extend for buff reasons).

I really hope you add it back for future mods.