A little common sense while gaming

[Kalari]

Its late couldnt sleep so decided to read the forums (I know bad idea) and I came across this thread about the intelligence falling on another server. Well as much as I love Sarlona, I think we are suffering from the same thing as of late and I wanted to get this off my chest before heading to lala land. As someone who is still new to about 60% of the game content, and is with a guild who has an hour difference from me, I dont mind pugging once in awhile. But ive started to notice a disturbing trend in alot of groups ive pugged with recently, that has caused me to reconsider my helpful ways so much. Now I know some will say "dont pug" well that doesnt help me learn the game does it? I cant always expect my guild members to give up their lives to play when I am free to. Nor do I want to shun myself from nice people in game several of which Ive had the pleasure to run very fun yet challenging quests and raids with. Its just lately the cons have been outweight the pros for pugging for me and I hate to see not playing my wizard because I get to the point I only want to run raids and hard quest guild only. Basically these are the following group things that have gotten me riled lately, I think if I just avoid groups and people like this pugging wont be so bad anymore:

#1. And my biggest peeve in game, is when the leader will tell the group something, and people *who know what they are doing* </sarcasm> will go off do whatever the hell they want and get killed. I went on a Ataraxia's quest the other day, where the leader specifically had a plan for the group and one guy decided to pull agro on the group right after we nearly wiped and just rezzed. Lucky for me my spells went off quickly, or Id had been down even worst a repair bill. This same player has done the same thing in other groups ive been in him with, so now ive kinda leary to run anything with him.

#2. Is people who assume that everyone knows what your thinking, if you have two casters it should be made clear who is gonna do what, dont sit there and wait for me to buff up the party only to do the same thing. Wasting sp grinds my gears (to steal from family guy). If your gonna buff let me know I will use my sp towards attack spells. If you want me to buff say so, dont just assume that im gonna know the role you want me to fill in.

#3. If you dont know the quest say so, theres no embarrasment to that, I dont know plenty of quests yet and im never afraid to make it known, I also give people the options to drop me if they want someone more experienced to go with them.

I like being courteous I find I get more invites that way even when I magoo things up. I just get seriously frustrated when an unneccessary wipe occurs because people let ego get in the way of brains. I try to be helpful, I carry my own potions, wands and I will donate scrolls and wands to clerics when my tush isnt broke. I will even go as far as if someone needs something ive pulled from a chest (unless I really need it or a guild member asked me to be on the look for one) to give said items to players. All I ask in turn is abit of patience while I learn the content. So ive learned to avoid groups who put "quick run threw and rush" in their lfms. Im also starting to get the feeling though it hasnt happened yet, that I may have to develop the drop group mentality if things get to bad. Its one thing if everyone tries hard and ya still wipe. Its another when people refuse to listen dont try to help themselves and selfishly run threw things without considerations to the entire party.

I guess im just putting this hear in case Kal starts not accepting invites. Im kinda burnt out of dying so much that my good gear is screaming mercy. And as I said ive been on wipes where the group really tried hard so its not a knock of that. What I really cant stand lately is the whole guy with the star not being listened to. Even if the other people know the darn quest like the back of their hand if the leader has a plan why not follow it? Or start your own group. I just never seen the point of joining a group if im not gonna listen to the stradegy. And while id love to form my own groups I will be the first to admit I like following people who know what they are doing and playing a supportive role. At least until I feel more confident with my abilities. So knock away anyone who wants to say ahh you should be more ubber, I just enjoy playing a supportive role in the team. When im ready I'll lead till then Id rather learn what the heck im doing first.

Man I rant when im up to late needs more sleep *nods head*

[ShaeNightbird]

Well Met.

I am very glad you posted this. These very concerns are the reason I no longer accept any invitations from PUG's. May I also list a few from a Clerics point of view?

I am a newcomer also. I was under the impression that at one time or another, we were all new to the game, with the concomitant fumbles and getting lost that happen to anyone who is new at anything. Apparently not. There are quite a few, I discover, who were not only born knowing everything about this game, but were perfect players , complete from the moment they sprang, fully formed, from womb to world. These amazing people have hurled the term "NOOB!", (*Gasp*... Oh Gods, anything but that. Aaagh!!! I must die, NOW!) and other such vitriol at me, when I display my human failing (not being born one of these obviously superior beings) . These are the very same sort of people you mentioned, who are so knowledgeable that the don't listen to the party leader, and seem to be of the opinion that the group is there to support them in their mad quest for loot and slaughter. I believe it must gall them that there is loot sharing built in to the game. They also feel that it is their duty to attempt to intimidate and insult people who don't share their idea of rush, rush, grab the xp as fast as possible and get Uber stuff. Or, who happen to be...new... They get themselves killed often, they get the group killed quite often too. However, if a Cleric is present, guess who takes all the heat for their selfish, inconsiderate, stupid behaviour?

I have been accused of being incompetent because I refuse to function as a Heal Bot. People run out there, pull everything in the zone at once, and expect Miracle Cleric to heal them. They become angry when I run out of sp. They become angry when I don't pull out endless wands of cure serious wounds. Do they pony up and purchase these wands, for me to heal them with? No. Of course not. I am paid in invective.

Clerics and Mages must be clear and tell the group what they are casting for group buffs and when. But then there are those
people who don't pay any attention at all, and don't group for buffs- AoE buffs are great...if everyone is gathered around the caster. But if people are consistantly rushing off to kill things when others aren't ready; when the Cleric and Mages are still casting group buffs, and then complain that they didn't get any, so give it up NOW, they are not a member of a team, they are a drain on someone elses SP.
It is essential for casters in the group to discuss what the mission is, if they know, and take appropriate and complimentary spells out. Clerics and Mages must work together, because if the group is in a dungeon full of energy traps, elementals, enemy casters or level draining undead, and no one has any resists, or restoration, everyone's going to die, or your people will be trying to power their way through to the end with strength reduced to 8 or something.

What grinds my gears is the people who have no respect for others, but somehow think that everyone is supposed to respect THEM.

Guess what, it doesn't work that way.

Oh, here's a good one...If I'm playing my cleric or my tank, I will get spam invites. None of this "Hi, would you like to do (insert quest name here) with us. Sometimes I will get a tell actually introducing themselves. But usually the tell consists of "STK Elite" and that's it. If I'm lucky. Otherwise, the press gangs are out in force.

Speaking strictly for myself, I will always deny someone who does this. End of story. Also, if I am in a group which seems reasonably alright, and then gets ugly the minute we hit the second turn in the sewer, and the attitudes come out, I'm out too. I'm playing this game to have fun. If someone is going to insult the cleric the group is depending on to save lives and property damage, my suggestion is to watch your mouth, or watch the Cleric disappear. If you've been especially rude and awful, I can guarantee that this will happen when you've aggroed everything in the zone and are at half health and dropping.

And something which is near and dear to my heart. Guys, remember, video games aren't just for boys. Nope, women play them too. A lot of us.
Real live women. Not every female character you see out there is going to have a guy directing her. Not every male character is either.
Don't act as if it's all a big boys club, cuz it ain't. Don't act like some macho pig. Rude comments aren't appreciated. Neither is the assumption that everyone you meet in game is going to be male. Mind your manners, and if you don't have any, learn some. It will go a long way in game and in life.


Communication is the key. If people don't communicate, a mission will turn into a cluster****. Cooperation is essential. The "Great ME!"" attitude sucks.

[Oreg]

I joined a 10-12 Von 5-6 run yesterday and Von 5 went pretty smoothly considering we did it on elite. We get into the Dragon, drop the pillars and are buffing to go in. One of the guys happens to step on the dirt triggering Velah. A wipe followed 45 seconds later. Nothing unusual there for a PUG group.

Here is the thing that kind of shocked me. One of the guys just unloads on game chat cursing and berating "whoever" did it. Using "F'in D-bag", "F'in loser" blah blah blah. I didn't see it happen so I am not even sure who did it but one of the members actually types "it was me" after the verbal tongue lashing.

It has been a long time since I had heard a player so vocal in game chat berate someone else. I was thinking "man, that's a bit extreme for a mistake".

Anyway, that's my contribution to the dis-"courteous" discussion.

[Dailus]

Its doubtful that I will ever become overly vocal in party about some ones short commings, but it does get annoying when you move into the mid range quests and people do not play the role they are supose to. In the last couple weeks I have run WW elite with 2 clerics and a wand healing paladin and died 5 times in one part, western excavation with a cleric that stated "I do not carry wands." and played like a zerging barbarian along with a mage that stone skinned himself and hung at the back of the group basically a XP mooch.

Everyone was new once and one should try to be helpful and understanding to a new player, but your just going to run into selfish folks in pugs. My solution is " Always be prepared to self heal." All my characters carry wands or potions, or have a minimal healing spell just for self preservation. I always carried some healing, but after some of these resent situtations i carry more, enough to self heal through a whole quest. It sucks, but thats what you have to do if you pug.

-Dailus

[Heladron]

I joined a 10-12 Von 5-6 run yesterday and Von 5 went pretty smoothly considering we did it on elite. We get into the Dragon, drop the pillars and are buffing to go in. One of the guys happens to step on the dirt triggering Velah. A wipe followed 45 seconds later. Nothing unusual there for a PUG group.

Here is the thing that kind of shocked me. One of the guys just unloads on game chat cursing and berating "whoever" did it. Using "F'in D-bag", "F'in loser" blah blah blah. I didn't see it happen so I am not even sure who did it but one of the members actually types "it was me" after the verbal tongue lashing.

It has been a long time since I had heard a player so vocal in game chat berate someone else. I was thinking "man, that's a bit extreme for a mistake".

Anyway, that's my contribution to the dis-"courteous" discussion.

That's hilarious, except for the berating part. That exact same thing happened to a group I was in about a week ago. My guild was taking a bunch of new players on their first Velah Hunt. They were amazed and intimidated by the dragon and were making all kinds of mistakes. (Clearly we assumed everyone knew how to play base ball. LOL)

The first mistake was the fellow that was supposed to go to third. He was new, but was the only other tank that could do a pillar. He went to third by running to first and then second which already had players there. Needless to say Velah was launching fireballs every time this guy hit a base with another player. It was glorious. Everyone on the mound was yelling, "No run the other way." The guys on the bases are yelling, "No, keep going" because they didn't need any more fire damage.

Long story short, the same guy misunderstood that we were going to buff and then charge the dragon. I'm guessing all this fellow heard was "Charge the Dragon" and he ran out and was roasted crispy before he ever got there. Velah proceeded to roast the rest of us too.

Luckily both clerics knew the drill and immediately ran to the safe spot. We managed to get the party revived, but still ended up losing the battle because clerics ran short on mana after the first near whipe.

It was the funnest dragon raid I've ever been on that ended in failure due to newbie mistakes. I laughed so hard I was in tears.

I will group with newbies any day of the week if my guildies aren't available and if I have the time. I'm sorry a few of you new players had to meet some of the "l33t" gamers. I use that term loosely since I know a lot of true elite gamers that have plenty of patience to teach new players and give them a leg up.

[unionyes]

I have killed a few parties with my noobie ways, although not lately. From drawing too much aggro onto the party with AOE spells, to hitting the wrong mob in the wrong order, to running the wrong way in a quest, then running back with a train - into the shrine room.

I wouldn't call anyone that says they have never screwed up a quest a liar, though, but I would question their short term memory.

Anybody who gets mad at someone who does something that they did (at least) once just doesn't get it.

The exception, IMO, is someone who does the same thing twice. I mean if someone blows a quest, the party recalls out, comes back in, and they do it again. That is a little excessive. But everyone makes mistakes once in a while.

I am always happy to run with new players, any time I am on. Of course, it helps if they are willing to listen to gentle advice.

[DJNsomniac]

...I also give people the options to drop me if they want someone more experienced to go with them.

Sorry this in my opinion is the biggest ******** EVER. If ANYONE ever asked me to drop because of experience I'd tell them to go shove it. How are you going to learn the content if your offering to drop for a more experienced player? Thats stupid in my opinion. I can see offering to drop because the group makeup wasnt correct (IE your an extra/not needed spell caster that just came into the group).

NEVER offer to drop for a more experienced player.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

My death is never another person's fault....neither is yours.
(possible exceptions in raids)

[Kalari]

(Quoted the wrong person meant to respond to the player who said it wasnt good to drop because they want someone with more experience)


I do it because obviously the people want to rush threw the content and want to go with their version of a correct party (Ie people who know it and dont mess up) Id rather not go with a group where i'll be cussed out because I dont know where im going, or be left because they are charging threw it while im still trying to figure out whats what. That has happened alot to and makes me more angry then just simply letting them replace me with someone else who can move as fast.

Also Ive been the victim of the ones who take the games waaay to seriously hence making me nervous to pug alot lately to. Ran a Xorian Cipher run for the first time about 2 weeks ago, Told the leader up front that I was new did not know the area. And there were a few others in the same boat. I figured okay he knows about half the party is definately going in for the first time we will go slow...

Yeah right several of us got left in the jungle part, then when we got inside it was an immediate slaughter. I felt for the poor cleric who tried in vain to keep us raised. Then when the ranger who I still think is a sweet guy asked me to come with him to turn off the runs so that the purple blobs of doom would stop hitting the party we got F*** the D*** runes any F***ing 3 yr old can bypass them..

Um considering we didnt know about said blobs and could not dodge them I guess i'll admit a 3 yr old is better then my wizard. (Gives my son a cookie..</sarcasm>

Its people like this that make pugging unfun. And while I do go on good runs with my guild our scheduels dont always mesh. Like today when I get on I may not see any of my guild for a few hours and id love to explore but im very squishy. I dont mind picking up a group if they plan on working together. I even laugh at some of the jokes when they think its all guys in the group then gasps when I talk and its like "woah a chick." I even laughed when someone insinuated that I had a certain body part that I know I dont. He apologized later once he realized his mistake so its all good. I dont mind adult humor its just rude and mean players who make it hard on new players who dont know the content, are trying to learn their characters and are just happy to be invited.

And im always up front with whoever takes me even if ive done a quest two times, im known to magoo (my version of mess things up) at times. I like going slow and I try to listen as much as possible. Thanks to some nice vet players I know to carry my own heal potions, restore, blindness you name it. I also try my darndest to have some form of heal scrolls or wands for the clerics cause I know tha they have to pay a hefty sum for them. I dont mind doing so even if its not used on my character as long as it keeps the party up, what I do mind is if its used to keep up the person who decides *screw this im gonna do things my way and forget that other people are playing* I truly hate that mentality it almost always results in a party wipe. And while im for casters and clerics working together and have done so it doesnt help any of us if people are doing whatever they want.

One of my favorite things to do to help fighters and rogues are to hold creatures. I dont know how but the combinations of things ive taken for Kal ive been able to hold most creatures including undead. Yet some people will get mad because they dont understand what the spell does. So ive taken to typing "triangle hat means dominated or hypnotised. Circle hat means they are just standing still please attack. And everyone should know that if they are standing paused surrounded by blue swirls that they arent moving and prime for attack." Yet I got yelled at on one run because I halted undead by someone who thought they were commanded. Even when I explained it he tiraded till he got it out of his system, it shook me up because other groups actually liked the tactic including the halt zombie fry em with firewall. I dont go off pretending im an expert but if I can help I try to, but being yelled at like a child makes me not want to waste sp. And it only takes one time for someone to lose it with me for no reason. If I give a reason fine but im on one strike when it comes to that and then no more pugging for me i'll just play lowbies till my guild runs something fun.

Gah rant city again sorry and nice to meet you to ShaeNightBird ^_^ always nice to meet another fellow gal gamer

[Teech]

Halt undead is way underrated and underused in undead quests IMO.

Outside of the ppl who don't listen the other grp of ppl that get me POed are the freeloaders.

Have run quests with players who refuse to recall out when everyone else in the grp has done so. Insisting that the party runs his stone to the shrine which has not yet been cleared to. Watching the party wipe and still not releasing to help.

Have run with casters that don't cast anything. Seriously. Was on my sorc in stormcleave and the other sorc in grp has had a full sp bar for almost the whole quest AND has been asking for handouts whenever someone pulls something he wants.

At the last boss the grp decides not to even down the earth ele (since we had 2 sorcs...) and just killed the giant by having the 2 sorcs and cleric cast like crazy.

I end up with like a tenth of my sp remaining while the cleric has maybe half a bar (cant cast fast enough)
The other sorc has a FULL bar...
[SIZE=-1][/SIZE]

[AoD45154]

Hey Kalari! I'm not sure what time frame you play, but you are welcome to group with any of The Forsworn 'RP' if your guild isn't around. We are a rp guild, not sure if that matters to you or not, but we definately don't like to rush and we are a very helpful, mature group. I rarely join PUG groups either, to me it's not worth the potential frustration.
You also might try starting your own group, you can add a note saying you don't want to rush, etc. I have met alot of nice people that way.

Good luck and maybe see you in game sometime!
p.s. I am a female gamer, too.

[Kalari]

Thanks AoD45154 And I love the thought of hanging out with roleplayers, but I do love the guild im with. Maybe one day i'll form one but COJBJ is where my heart is, I have yet to find a more patient group of gamers in my life. They are definately the reason I have not regretted staying with DDO. Its just its hard when I get on during the early afternoons and sometimes later in the evenings because alot of times members are done with the game or have not gotten home from work. Since I pretty much set my own scheduel for the day its easier for me to play then but im flexible enough to get on at night when they run as well.

I do like pugging for one reason, meeting new people and getting to see more of the game, if I ran guild only Id probably not get to see alot of content right now because the group has outside things they are apart of to.

What bugs me about certain people who pick up pugs is they really ignore that some players are new or they tend not to factor it in and treat us horrible if we arent capable of doing what they expect. Some guy got mad cause the two casters he invited couldnt cast fod...um we were both lvl 10 and under lol...I try to let it roll off my back most of the time but it gets to me sometimes when people are beligerent and take the game too seriously. I point blank dont like being yelled or cussed out because im not playing up to your view on how my skills should be, and since I always make it known that I am new or if Ive never done a quest I expect a little courtesy with that or simply "oh okay well we really want someone who can run fast." I dont get upset with that, it really burns me those who will take me anyway then get upset when they rush forward and I get lost trying to find them.


And Teech I agree I love halt undead it has gotten me out of some serious binds with undeadies..

Ahh well dinner is done be back later.

[Arnya]

We all have noob moments.

Actually, I had a couple yesterday.

One was my sorc dropping FW instead of FTS in the cursed crypt. Oops, restart, sorry guildies

Then there was my bard in tear of dhakaan elite. I had told the leader I was only lvl4 but that's ok I'm 32point twinked uber etc... Got to the last couple rooms then I just noobed out and died 3 times stupidly... had to laugh at myself really...

Made a few Puggers laugh thats for sure

But if anyone had have gotten stroppy or abusive I would have recommended they lighten up and probably laughed them out of the party....

[Kalari]

We all have noob moments.

Actually, I had a couple yesterday.

One was my sorc dropping FW instead of FTS in the cursed crypt. Oops, restart, sorry guildies

Then there was my bard in tear of dhakaan elite. I had told the leader I was only lvl4 but that's ok I'm 32point twinked uber etc... Got to the last couple rooms then I just noobed out and died 3 times stupidly... had to laugh at myself really...

Made a few Puggers laugh thats for sure

But if anyone had have gotten stroppy or abusive I would have recommended they lighten up and probably laughed them out of the party....

LOL I think ive run with you Arnya in fact im sure I have on POP and you were very nice and fun to run with as were the other people. So I know there are good pugs, heck I went on a really good one for Vons5-6 they even took me threw 4 just so I could go with them. Its just I had several runs of very nasty players and it made me leary to run pugs. On the brightside I know who I wont be running with again anytime soon specially when I start playing my cleric

[Geonis]

I joined a 10-12 Von 5-6 run yesterday and Von 5 went pretty smoothly considering we did it on elite. We get into the Dragon, drop the pillars and are buffing to go in. One of the guys happens to step on the dirt triggering Velah. A wipe followed 45 seconds later. Nothing unusual there for a PUG group.

Here is the thing that kind of shocked me. One of the guys just unloads on game chat cursing and berating "whoever" did it. Using "F'in D-bag", "F'in loser" blah blah blah. I didn't see it happen so I am not even sure who did it but one of the members actually types "it was me" after the verbal tongue lashing.

It has been a long time since I had heard a player so vocal in game chat berate someone else. I was thinking "man, that's a bit extreme for a mistake".

Anyway, that's my contribution to the dis-"courteous" discussion.

I have heard similar things in parties, I think it has something to do with this (a quest) being the most important thing happening in that person's life.........yes, it is sad.

[xynxie]

Puggin is fine when the star takes care of the leadership and the way the quest to going to go. If the star says hey I have never done this quest and then ask another if they know it and some one says yes...then great....let that person say what needs to be done...BUT NOT LET HIM SET THE PACE OF PLAY. If there is someone in a pug that has never done a quest before or is very uneasy cause they have done it only 1 or 2 times...then the quest needs to be slowed down and it is up to the star to make this clear....and it is up to the star to make sure that that member is clear on what the party is doing and why if necessary. We were (heh...I still am) all noobs once.

I stated all that for the following reason....I have started to let folks that invite me know that I will drop group if those criteria aren't met...via my bio...but I also say it so all know. As a cleric it seems I get plenty of invites...but as a new player to the game and still learning, and at the age of 43...I just won't put up with rude behaviour in a game anymore. I assumed I had gotten unlucky and ran with some mouthy kids in one quest.....come to find they were all over 30. But that group taught me to decide what I expect in this game and you can bet I won't hang in there for the XP anymore

[unionyes]

I have heard similar things in parties, I think it has something to do with this (a quest) being the most important thing happening in that person's life.........yes, it is sad.

No kidding.

I am so glad that my life is such that I can define my personal worth and achievements in many other ways, and not have to rely on a game to give me a sense of personal worth.

Of course, if you are going to do something you should try and do it the best you can, but at the end of the day, this is just a game and not anywhere near worth demeaning, belittling, or abusing someone. If anything is worth that.

[CaptKurt]

I generally have good luck with PUGs...although it is always a gamble.

When you get concerned run with a Permadeath guild. The Extreme Explorers on Sarlona, the Sublime on Thelanis or Mortal Voyage on Argo. You will encounter a much higher level of maturity overall and certainly a slower more deliberate style of play.

[Astria]

From my personal, very recent re-experience with DDO...the newbie hating problem has become a little lessened since release. I'm not saying it's TOO much better, but I played from the original release until several months into the game ( I believe Twilight Forge was relatively new when I decided to break), and I seem to remember a lot more "exp players only" LFMs, and the type of leader that, the first question coming across voice chat would be "have you run this quest before?"...then kicking the person if he/she said no. I'd have to say the level of zerg-rushing 1337 super human characters of party wiping is somewhere about the same, but I would imagine that it's easy to think "well, I blew through these mobs with 5 other people once...I should be able to take them on my own"..what with delusions of dragon slaying and overall glory.

PUGging a dungeon has always been a pretty iffy experience. I do my best to help out people that were new, and, as long as they're willing to accept help, things tend to go relatively smoothly...and even experienced players make mistakes. I have no idea how many times I've accidently sent a PK or scorching ray off on the wrong mob...or as a fighter, accidently hit autorun and bolted through a trap.

This game is pretty good about making soloing a rather unattractive feature. Even when you can solo, it can generally cost a great deal in potions and time to do it. The problem with this is that many other MMOs out there, you can blow through quests single-handedly, and there's hardly a dent in your armor. When you get so use to that kind of play, it can be a little difficult adjusting to a game that will bend you over and rape you if you try doing that in certain quests.

There are always going to be negative, selfish types out there....it's just the way it works. I don't think I'd give up PUGing because of it. I really like the idea of grouping with new people, and adjusting to different play styles....and then having the rewarding experience of helping some newer people out when they need it, or finding someone I've grouped with before in a PUG. I just don't think the negativity from SOME groups outweighs the other, more positive aspects.

[Kalari]

Went to bed last night and didnt get to post this so doing so now. Last night I had an example of how a good pugging could go even with dying. I got taken on a POP run with a group of mature players who knew the ropes. I had only gone once before and that two was with a group of players who made the experience very fun for me. Communication was a key to this run and though lag and my magooness got me killed outside twice, I had a blast. The group running with me were patient we got the run tackled (on elite I think) and it was just a fun time. I hope that more pugs like this happen even if I die during the battle because I had so much fun I didnt care. Patience and communication are two things that I will always go for over loot and exp. Learning this game helps me want to continue to play, and I can only hope that other new players get to run with some of the nicer sarlonians that I have and avoid the more nasty ones I had to run with as well


Oh and to the sender of the strange tell last night thank you I did get to lvl 12 but the level means nothing im still a magoo wizard LOL.