Barbarian Critical Rage v Deepwood Sniper

[Aeneas]

I did not intend that as a slap but I will state a few things I see here in game... I love my barb, she is built high strung dps but really there should be other aspects to each and every class... I love my ranger she's a very strong dex build but really is no slouch in melee either sporting a 24 str and 36 dex ... the favored and elven melee lines help her out when she picks up two weapons. And I'll tell you this up front she has both IC ranged and finesse plus IC pierce on her along with the DS so she can swing both roles. The real trick about going with a ranged ranger is I do not think it's good to put all your eggs in one basket. A ranger can be a very formidable melee or a bit of a fantastic ranging build - last in spurts of dps that way... which is why I try not to hard press them too much so. The real problems with DDO however is there is a high emphasis on dps and I really think if should not be so. DnD is a lot more game then DDO is and I see no reason why DDO cannot branch into other aspects of DnD ... I've stated it before over the years as I've seen us all heading down this road - there should be no worthless feats, no worthless skills there should be some value to them all in some measure - while maybe not the same value, they should be in relitively close proximities.

We all need a good slap once in a while.

[Mad_Bombardier]

Bottom line: if deepwood sniper had been done correctly this thread wouldn't need to exist, as would the other 50 just like it.

Correction: if Barbarian Critical Rage had been done correctly, then no other enhancements would have to "measure up" to it and would be appreciated for their unique bonuses, and this thread wouldn't need to exist.

[Aeneas]

I don't know, Mad, i think even if barbs were brought down a peg, the ranged PC would still struggle noticeably by comparison.

[Yaga_Nub]

Bottom line: if deepwood sniper had been done correctly this thread wouldn't need to exist, as would the other 50 just like it.

Correction: if Barbarian Critical Rage had been done correctly, then no other enhancements would have to "measure up" to it and would be appreciated for their unique bonuses, and this thread wouldn't need to exist.

But.... but.... but what would I post about then?

I can't do another Bezekira v Jarilith discussion.

[Beerthirty]

Reading comprehension FTW.

Go back and actually read what I wrote Beer.

PS He's my guild leader I can treat him like a child if I want to because he needs things spelled out for him.

So much for making a funny.. not even at your expense this time.


Of course I read what you wrote.
If I were to make a point though, it seems like you began comparing apples to oranges and finished by comparing oranges to tangelos.

I don't understand why you wouldn't IC: Ranged if you were a ranging ranger though.

[llevenbaxx]

Correction: if Barbarian Critical Rage had been done correctly, then no other enhancements would have to "measure up" to it and would be appreciated for their unique bonuses, and this thread wouldn't need to exist.

Or it could also be if they had done ranged combat correctly from the start.

If ranged didnt need SO much to not measure up but just get within ear shot I think we would have far fewer threads on it.

What worked for level1-8 doesnt work in levels 12+

[Yaga_Nub]

Which becomes +2 for all rangers using bows, since they will have IC: Ranged.

Absolutely incorrect and that's another problem we have on these boards. Not all rangers carry IC: Ranged and they certainly aren't gimped because of it even though I'm certain someone will post that all rangers HAVE to have IC: Ranged. Plus IC: Ranged can be taken by anyone so anyone could get that benefit if they wanted to do so.

Well, if I was to build a bow-user ranger, I would feel very gimped not to have IC: Ranged, especially if I was to go the Deepwood sniper route. And the fact everyone can have it is irrelevant to my comment.

Well there you clarified it to ranged ranger which is fine and I agree. But the barb gets IC: XXX as well so they are getting the same benefit.

So much for making a funny.. not even at your expense this time.


Of course I read what you wrote.
If I were to make a point though, it seems like you began comparing apples to oranges and finished by comparing oranges to tangelos.

I don't understand why you wouldn't IC: Ranged if you were a ranging ranger though.

I think you would definitely want IC: Ranged if you were a ranged focused ranger. As you can see by the thread progression, it started off with tihocan saying "rangers using bows." But all rangers (as well as anyone else) can use bows. Then he clarified that he was speaking about ranged focused rangers to which I agreed that if you were ranged focused then you would want IC: Ranged.

[Mad_Bombardier]

I don't know, Mad, i think even if barbs were brought down a peg, the ranged PC would still struggle noticeably by comparison.

Or it could also be if they had done ranged combat correctly from the start.

If ranged didnt need SO much to not measure up but just get within ear shot I think we would have far fewer threads on it.

What worked for level1-8 doesnt work in levels 12+

Ranged combat sucks because it's not party or confined space (ie., dungeon) friendly. Given an open space, a Ranged combatant can line monsters up, use Improved Precise Shot + Manyshot and take down dozens of mobs at a time. There is no DPS in the game that compares in that unique scenario. But, that's the problem. That one unique scenario can't happen very often (and IMO shouldn't, as it's equally overpowered).

Ranged combat is a very fine line. It can't be too strong so that everyone uses it. It also can't be so weak that no one uses it (which we are bordering on, now). It is still a powerful way to debuff monsters before they even get into melee range, thus saving party resources. But, Ranged RoF has a long way to go as 53 arrows per minute (normal; no Manyshot) is downright pathetic. I think we need to look there first before asking for other changes to Bow combat.

[Turial]

Ranged combat sucks because it's not party or confined space (ie., dungeon) friendly. Given an open space, a Ranged combatant can line monsters up, use Improved Precise Shot + Manyshot and take down dozens of mobs at a time. There is no DPS in the game that compares in that unique scenario. But, that's the problem. That one unique scenario can't happen very often (and IMO shouldn't, as it's equally overpowered).

Ranged combat is a very fine line. It can't be too strong so that everyone uses it. It also can't be so weak that no one uses it (which we are bordering on, now). It is still a powerful way to debuff monsters before they even get into melee range, thus saving party resources. But, Ranged RoF has a long way to go as 53 arrows per minute (normal; no Manyshot) is downright pathetic. I think we need to look there first before asking for other changes to Bow combat.

To true....though that 53 can shrink to less then 43 per min depending on how often the game simply says you didnt try to shoot that mob with the no roll gimmic.

As far as DS goes one of the issues with it is the fact that it only helps when you would crit and really only makes that slightly more possible on a single shot per 10 seconds or 4 shots if you happen to line up manyshot and a DS. Now if DS was a 10 or 20 second buff then we would be looking at a horse of a different color. Turbine wouldnt do that though.

[Yaga_Nub]

Ranged combat sucks because it's not party or confined space (ie., dungeon) friendly. Given an open space, a Ranged combatant can line monsters up, use Improved Precise Shot + Manyshot and take down dozens of mobs at a time. There is no DPS in the game that compares in that unique scenario. But, that's the problem. That one unique scenario can't happen very often (and IMO shouldn't, as it's equally overpowered).

Ranged combat is a very fine line. It can't be too strong so that everyone uses it. It also can't be so weak that no one uses it (which we are bordering on, now). It is still a powerful way to debuff monsters before they even get into melee range, thus saving party resources. But, Ranged RoF has a long way to go as 53 arrows per minute (normal; no Manyshot) is downright pathetic. I think we need to look there first before asking for other changes to Bow combat.

This is off-topic but I'd like to definitely agree with the high-lighted text.

Ranged is supposed to be a way to soften up the enemy. Think Artillery.

Snipers are meant to one-shot kill high value targets or pin units down to allow the snipers side to react to enemy movements.

So this is how I see ranged combat in DDO terms (or what it could be):

Rangers (non-DS), Ranged-spec'ed fighters and other ranged using classes would use their weapons to soften up mobs so that the front-line melee (which includes twf rangers) can kill them faster. Softening the enemy up would including doing what damage you could, cursing, destructing, stat-damaging, etc.

A DS SHOULD be able to crit high enough to kill or heavily damage most normal mobs with their shots (with the changes that I proposed), heavily damage an orange named, deal good damage to a red named and be a very valuable contributor to defeating a raid boss.

As long as people only worry about kill count, dps, or the color of Delera's rotting undergarments, ranged focused characters will be laughed at and told they are useless (or at least that they don't contribute enough). There should be more than one way to help in an encounter than pure DPS.

EDIT: To get back on topic let's not forget that this enhancement only works for bows which only crit on a 20. BCR works with all weapons.

[paintedman]

...does the line need some help, sure. While the barbies are not saying exactly that, they are more interested in keeping thier crit rage, I think the point is well made. As a side note the OP was using the babies great skill as a barometer, not attack at all. Yes, it is agreed that the babies focus on killing with an axe, and they should do it very well, no one is arguing that, but should not an equal level class that is not babie kill moderatly as well? With Many Shot my ranger is very viable near tiping point of crazy, but that is for only 20 seconds. But like the barbie that is what my ranger does, I have spent feats and enhanments to get him to range very well, should he not also get near the damage of a barbie? I picked up the DS line to see if it was worth it. Every ten seconds or so I get to take one shot like a pro, the rest of the time I'm just plinking for 20 pts of damage. Heck I could be plinking for 40 points of damage, but with these mobs they'd just look at me funny and wonder why I didn't have an axe.

As for the solution, "roll up a barbarian", now that is just a cop-out for no answer. This is not the "defend the barbarians crit line" thread, this is the DS thread.

My suggestions

1. Make MS a toggle feat
2. give a stronger passive effect from DS (mulitplier would be good)

-paintedman

[Mad_Bombardier]

EDIT: To get back on topic let's not forget that this enhancement only works for bows which only crit on a 20. BCR works with all weapons.

Are you sure? I know Arcane Archer is bow/arrow only. But, I thought Deepwood Sniper was Bow and Crossbow. Equip a Great Crossbow for 14-20 crits. Right?

In addition, here's my thought's from Bodom's thread.

Nice idea Bodom. Since Sniper Shot is crit based, the bonus could be something like Seeker +2 (stacking). That's +2 to confirm your crit and +6 crit damage with bow.

I think that Deepwood Sniper should be usable with thrown weapons, too. None of the other Ranger specialties fit with thrown weapons, but Sniper does (or at least could).

And, you know what would also be great? Allowing Deepwood Sniper to perform combat feats with a bow. Ranged Trip (pinning shot), Stunning Blow (headshot), Hamstring (legshot). I have my fingers crossed for future implementation of Deepwood Sniper II.

[LawstCawz]

...does the line need some help, sure. While the barbies are not saying exactly that, they are more interested in keeping thier crit rage, I think the point is well made. As a side note the OP was using the babies great skill as a barometer, not attack at all. Yes, it is agreed that the babies focus on killing with an axe, and they should do it very well, no one is arguing that, but should not an equal level class that is not babie kill moderatly as well? With Many Shot my ranger is very viable near tiping point of crazy, but that is for only 20 seconds. But like the barbie that is what my ranger does, I have spent feats and enhanments to get him to range very well, should he not also get near the damage of a barbie? I picked up the DS line to see if it was worth it. Every ten seconds or so I get to take one shot like a pro, the rest of the time I'm just plinking for 20 pts of damage. Heck I could be plinking for 40 points of damage, but with these mobs they'd just look at me funny and wonder why I didn't have an axe.

As for the solution, "roll up a barbarian", now that is just a cop-out for no answer. This is not the "defend the barbarians crit line" thread, this is the DS thread.

My suggestions

1. Make MS a toggle feat
2. give a stronger passive effect from DS (mulitplier would be good)

-paintedman

You've just struck a key problem. At what point is to much damage for a ranged fighter to have? Do we need rangers stripping aggro from twf barbs to make you happy? I'm tired enough chasing after silly elves who don't know how to play. I think a ranger boot camp before you can play the class would do wonders for most. I've seen crappy rangers, and I've seen good ones. What's the difference? The person on the other end of the screen. There's your "gimp". Ranged fighting is for support and solo, not the partys main source of dps.


EDIT:
All for keeping rangers to burst dps.

[Beherit_Baphomar]

Bee, you don't even have a ranger ya noob. lol

In fact, your sorcerer killed my ranger in PvP at the lobster not too long ago.

Notice, I havent forgotten.

[ChildrenofBodom]

In fact, your sorcerer killed my ranger in PvP at the lobster not too long ago.

Notice, I havent forgotten.

Fo reals? Name?

[Drider]

Am I the only one that thinks that the barbarian crit shouldn't apply to bows anyway?

[Yaga_Nub]

Am I the only one that thinks that the barbarian crit shouldn't apply to bows anyway?

I think it should only apply to whatever your IC feat is.

[paintedman]

You've just struck a key problem. At what point is to much damage for a ranged fighter to have? Do we need rangers stripping aggro from twf barbs to make you happy? I'm tired enough chasing after silly elves who don't know how to play. I think a ranger boot camp before you can play the class would do wonders for most. I've seen crappy rangers, and I've seen good ones. What's the difference? The person on the other end of the screen. There's your "gimp". Ranged fighting is for support and solo, not the partys main source of dps.


EDIT:
All for keeping rangers to burst dps.

I'll admit it'll come real close to the tipping point of damage, but just like the barbies close combat, rangers(archers to single out a type) should do some real damage for more than 20sec. Another point would be that MS is supposed to be a "stance" anyway. All in all though I would not see it as a game breaker, there are usually more than enough mobs to go around. I would like to know if the disparity with damage is the only factor against this idea? I mean an archer type gives a +4 to hth attackers, and is usually not very good in combat. There will be many who are, but if you spent your money on bows like I have (gb-all types) then there is usually very little room for weapons in the inventory let alone the budget.

-paintedman

ps don't agree with the support only statement, solo, maybe, but its very tiresom to have to kill with a para bow till your MS timer resets...

[binnsr]

now if you want to get really scary...just think aqt lvl 20 14barb/6 ranger with a silver bow so a crit on a 14-20 for X4 damage wow !!!!!!! w/ multi shot the damage could be sick

Like this? http://www.housetharashk.com/forums/...4374#post34374 I think that'd be a fun build ..

[BlueLightBandit]

A couple of things:

This post is directed towards the Devs.

Then send them a personal message.

I do not play a barbarian...

So all of your thoughts and critiques are based on what a barbarian is and does... ON PAPER. Actually playing the class will give you a better appreciation for what the drawbacks and limitations are of that class. Until you do that, you're at a severe lack of knowledge when comparing ANYTHING to a barbarian.

Careful, babrarians hate it when someone suggests critical rage is way overpowered (which it is)

Overpowered is completely the wrong word to use here. Yes, they are MORE POWERFUL than other classes when it comes to strength based melee... as they should be. But in order to be OVER powered, there has to be things that are balanced and then this one sticks out like a sore thumb. Unfortunately, DDO is melee based, and a lot of the changes they have made (red named immunities) have lessened the impact of dex based attacks (stat damage can only take you so far). That being said, Barbarians are not OVER powered, other melee classes have simply been UNDER powered for a long time.

And there you have my point.

14 levels of barbarian = less feats + supreme DPS + total dependancy on others for buffing beyond potions and clickies

14 Levels of ranger = 15 feats + diversity + self buffs + independability

How can you not say that it's balanced?



TWF,
ITWF,
GTWF,
Imp Crit
Power Attack
Toughness

Feats and abilities I'd really like but can't see working in.
Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack
Cleave
Great Cleave
Combat Expertise, Whirlwind Attack
Improved Trip, Sunder
5 more toughness Feats
Imp Crit x2

Theres still more...

While I agree with the first part... that the benefit of a ranger is self reliance and the benefit of a barbarian is pure strength based dps.

Unfortunately I think there's a difference here. My personal opinion is that a rangers feat list is more widespread, meaning that you can actually take feats to make a variety of different ranger types, but actually having to end up making choices based on what they want to be. Ranged may get improved precise for free, but would have to take the extra feats and enhancements lines to "fill out" the build. In the end, they actually end up having to make some tough decisions with regards to those same feats and enhancements... which is kinda how it should be.

Barbarians on the other hand, pretty much have their feats chosen for them, and the lack of of feats makes it easier to build becase there are simply so few good feats to choose. You basically take your weapon focus, improved weapon focuse, improved crit, and a toughness feat... and you have your barbarian prebuilt.

Personally I would never use the word balance when comparing classes. They have their differences... which is kind of how it's supposed to be. The question is, whether the feats and enhancements available make the class do what it's supposed to do. The OP's post doesn't necessarily revolve around balance, but my personal comment is that they simply DO what they're SUPPOSED TO DO, so there's no reason to bring that nasty term balance into the fray. Honestly, I'd like to see the barbarian feats and enhancements broadened a bit, as they simply have less choices to make during the building process.