Barbarian Critical Rage v Deepwood Sniper

[elraido]

And then you have the paladin.............getting left in the dust by every other class for a year now.

[gpk]

Careful, babrarians hate it when someone suggests critical rage is way overpowered (which it is)

[Ransacked]

And how is that?

By taking a barbarian all the way to 14 to get Critical Rage II is not a sacrifice? By losing out on a multitude of feat choices by not taking some other class like ranger or fighter to get the extra perks.

The ehancement system rewards the players for devotion to the class.

Oh and the 3 skill points per level really go a long way for diversity

[Aeneas]

it's actually 2 feats, and 13 AP's including the specialty. I don't know how else to explain that ranged combat needs help. I try to respond to the these threads whenever they crop up because i really would like to see working ranged combat that can keep pace with other combat styles, but it seems like those who have no interest in playing a ranged character are constantly name calling and putting down the ideas of those who have tried it and have seen how horribly gimped it is. Ranged combat is the only style of play that does not advance as the others do. Melee gets more attacks per round as well as an increasing attack bonus per swing. Casters get more powerful spells and additional spell points to help them keep pace with the changing hit dice and immunities of their foes. Even bards and rogues get more powerful songs and more backstab dice. I think some good ideas have been finally been seeing some attention via codog's thread but to be honest "the ranger mod" saw way more melee love than ranged and the melee rangers honestly didn't need it (i say that very grudgingly because i have a tempest ranger and he's pretty darn fun to play).



*by the way, i agree, paladins are pretty terrible after level 8 or so as well

[Mad_Bombardier]

Deepwood Sniper Shot = properly balanced critical threat and multiplier enhancement.
Critical Rage I & II = ridiculously overpowered critical threat enhancement.

It's pretty obvious where the problem lies and it's not with Sniper Shot. Eladrin has said regarding enhancements, "we'll do what we can to add rather than take away." Meaning that Crit Rage is probably here to stay. However, that does not mean that Devs will add new or overpower existing enhancements to match. At least, I hope not.

[gpk]

And then you have the paladin.............getting left in the dust by every other class for a year now.

QFT/E

[Mhykke]

Mhykee,

Since when did take damage become the reason one class or another should get extra benefits? Using your line of thinking, does the barbarian or fighter also deserve the best rewards from chests because they took the most damage? Is it the rogue's fault for having improved evasion that he doesn't take damage from spells the way a barb or fighter will? Should the barb or fighter be mad at the sorc for not FoDing a mob before the barb gets a few love taps? So the cleric ONLY heal the barb or fighter since they are taking the most damage? Last time I checked rangers die/get damaged just as often as any other class.

It's not just the damage.....but everyone keeps throwing around the balance word. And again, not saying I disagree with your thoughts, I really have no clue about what the devs should do with ranged damage.....I'm just thinking out loud here (and I didn't sleep last night so that doesn't help):

But going back to balance, and thinking about classes vs. each other......isn't there some point out there that you improve ranged combat to that nobody would want a class that goes near a mob? I mean, is there a point where ranged combat gets good enough where all you want to take are casters, clerics, and ranged combatants?

I wouldn't call it extra benefits as much as a trade off. Most barbs are melee, either TWF or THF. They don't get the enhancement in a vaccuum. When using their crit range, they're getting beat on pretty good.

[Yaga_Nub]

And then you have the paladin.............getting left in the dust by every other class for a year now.

Hey Mod 7 is supposed to be Operation: Paladin Love! Of course that lovin' is probably pretty G rated when it needs to be X rated but that's what you get for being a pious lawful do-gooder.

[tihocan]

a +1 critical threat range

Which becomes +2 for all rangers using bows, since they will have IC: Ranged.

[ChildrenofBodom]

And how is that?

By taking a barbarian all the way to 14 to get Critical Rage II is not a sacrifice? By losing out on a multitude of feat choices by not taking some other class like ranger or fighter to get the extra perks.

The ehancement system rewards the players for devotion to the class.

You think going barb all the way is a sacrifice? Are you kidding me? I HATE seeing being that multiclass barbarian. 'Cause usualy they make themselves much less powerful. Well, not as much now since you can multiclass 2 levels and still get crit range II, but anymore then 2 levels in a different class to me is stupid. Like a said before, what feats are SO missing out on that you want so badly? I see nothing that important.

I have 2 barbarians actually, my twf barb has to use 3 out of his 6 feats JUST to get the twf line. OMG I'M MISSING OUT ON SO MUCH. Not really.

[ChildrenofBodom]

Which becomes +2 for all rangers using bows, since they will have IC: Ranged.

I thought that was only with the silver bow?

[Ransacked]

You think going barb all the way is a sacrifice? Are you kidding me? I HATE seeing being that multiclass barbarian. 'Cause usualy they make themselves much less powerful. Well, not as much now since you can multiclass 2 levels and still get crit range II, but anymore then 2 levels in a different class to me is stupid. Like a said before, what feats are SO missing out on that you want so badly? I see nothing that important.

I have 2 barbarians actually, my twf barb has to use 3 out of his 6 feats JUST to get the twf line. OMG I'M MISSING OUT ON SO MUCH. Not really.

And there you have my point.

14 levels of barbarian = less feats + supreme DPS + total dependancy on others for buffing beyond potions and clickies

14 Levels of ranger = 15 feats + diversity + self buffs + independability

How can you not say that it's balanced?



TWF,
ITWF,
GTWF,
Imp Crit
Power Attack
Toughness

Feats and abilities I'd really like but can't see working in.
Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack
Cleave
Great Cleave
Combat Expertise, Whirlwind Attack
Improved Trip, Sunder
5 more toughness Feats
Imp Crit x2

Theres still more...

[Aeneas]

Herein lies the problem. Manyshot aside, a 14 barb/2 ranger will do far more bow damage than any pure ranger could hope to with a bow.

[Yaga_Nub]

It's not just the damage.....but everyone keeps throwing around the balance word. And again, not saying I disagree with your thoughts, I really have no clue about what the devs should do with ranged damage.....I'm just thinking out loud here (and I didn't sleep last night so that doesn't help):

But going back to balance, and thinking about classes vs. each other......isn't there some point out there that you improve ranged combat to that nobody would want a class that goes near a mob? I mean, is there a point where ranged combat gets good enough where all you want to take are casters, clerics, and ranged combatants?

I wouldn't call it extra benefits as much as a trade off. Most barbs are melee, either TWF or THF. They don't get the enhancement in a vaccuum. When using their crit range, they're getting beat on pretty good.

Well I guess it is about damage Mhykke or else you wouldn't have pointed out, again, at the end of your post that barbs get beat on pretty good.

The AI is getting better about finding ways to attack people that range them. So the average mob WILL try to close the gap and start beating on you. A perfect example (that goes both ways) is SC. If you go kill the 3 giants on the above the valley, most people will range the minotaurs in the valley. Before the AI upgrade, the minotaurs would try to range back. Today, if you get yourself in the right spot, they will still just try to range back but if you are just a little closer, the AI seems to know you are close enough to try to melee you and the minotaurs will back up and run up the ramp. A second example is the two minotaurs after the first pillar. Everyone used to range those two. Now the AI makes them rush for you and they drag the 4 giants with them for help. That's the difference. The devs are working to increase the AI and that will be the balance for ranged combat. That and the fact that you can't two or three shot mobs anymore with ranged on the average. But with the DS enhancement you should be able to put a huge dent in them before they meet the barb/fighter or before they get to you.

[tihocan]

I thought that was only with the silver bow?

I don't have a deepwood sniper ranger, but I read a few times how the +1 threat range multiplier was applied before the range being double by the IC feat. It has nothing to do with the Silver bow. Unless these few sources were wrong...
I'm not sure what happens if you use a keen bow though

[Yaga_Nub]

Which becomes +2 for all rangers using bows, since they will have IC: Ranged.

Absolutely incorrect and that's another problem we have on these boards. Not all rangers carry IC: Ranged and they certainly aren't gimped because of it even though I'm certain someone will post that all rangers HAVE to have IC: Ranged. Plus IC: Ranged can be taken by anyone so anyone could get that benefit if they wanted to do so.

[llevenbaxx]

And I'm not suggesting that anything be removed from the barbarians. I'm asking that if someone is going to specialize just as much (if not more because the ranger has to use two feats and 9 enhancement points before getting the DS enhancement) should be given equal consideration.

QFT. Just picked up the DS enhancement on my ranger(level 10 currently) recently, while it was a nice boost in damage from not having it, its "one-shot" mechanic leaves alot to be desired... even while manyshot is up. I would love to see it as a 10sec duration(boost style kinda)w/cooldown instead of a one shot every ten seconds. It would be worth the cost then imo while still light years behind a crit raging barb(and every other form of melee for that matter), so no worries my illiterate friends.

This game is simply too fast pace for just about any one-shot mechanic to make a real difference imo(see paly smite also) I guess at the end of the day I can always just put the bow away like most other "rangers" and TWF fairly well.

[ChildrenofBodom]

Herein lies the problem. Manyshot aside, a 14 barb/2 ranger will do far more bow damage than any pure ranger could hope to with a bow.

Common sense.

[jjflanigan]

To get the results in your OP... A barb would still have to take a feat (so now we're down to a 1 feat difference, and take 2 enhancements for critical rage II at a cost of 6 AP.

So the real difference here is 1 feat and 3 extra AP cost for a ranger to get something similar.

...

I'm utterly speechless that you'd complain considering the fact that taking Imp Crit eats into one of the 6 available feat choices for Barbarians and only 1 of the 16 total feats available for rangers.

That's just silly. Rangers only get to choose 6 feats as well :P.

[Aeneas]

Common sense.

But it shouldn't be true. A large majority of the arguments here are against rangers in part because they get so many feats - which is a huge deviation from how it should be. Traditionally rangers had to choose a line at level 2 and be ranged or two weapon fighters.

On my ranged ranger i would much prefer only taking the ranged feats if it meant i could keep up with a brute who can barely tie his own shoes using my preferred weapon.