Tier 3 upgrades perhaps needs a tweak?

[Riggs]

Since Willphase has discovered, and posted a mixed tier 3 upgrade (gratz), a few questions arise.

1. It seems the large ingredients drop at best 50% of the time. Small and medium ingredients seem to have a much higher drop rate.

2. Tier 3 'special' upgrades require twice as many ingredients as a 'simple' tier 3 upgrade.

3. There are more chests for medium ingredients, that are easier to get to, than large ingredients. And if you get the second set of chests for large you have completed the raid, and now cannot go back for 3 days. So it is about three times easier to get a tier 2 upgrade at the very least, and now with the double cost of special upgrades, most tier 3 effects will cost six times as much effort as tier 2.

4. The effect listed is very nice, but highly questionable whether Transmuting is worth twice as many ingredients as other simple tier 3 upgrades. As at least in this case (not sure what other Tier 3 effects will be), anything that needs transmuting or special damage to get past dr also is immune or resistant to various types of damage anyway, so the added weapon damage (holy or acid burst) will be negated.

5. It was mentioned during speculation over what path would lead to special tier 3 upgrades that IF it required two shards, then either the effect would be overpowered, or the cost in ingredients would be very high compared to the output effect. i.e. Slay living on a weapon costs 12 ingredients and several power cells. Transmuting(and keen/slicing) requires 24 and twice as many shards and power cells. Is it worth it?

6. Part 4 of the Shroud is significantly harder than the earlier parts, yet the ingredients seem to drop less, AND there are less chests after you complete it. It would take approximately 4-8 runs to get enough medium ingredients for a tier 2 upgrade say, and assuming you are not completing the Shroud, and perhaps 50+ runs to get enough ingredients to get a tier 3 upgrade. Yes the tier 3 effects are much greater - but are they 6-12 times greater? I would argue not.

7. Making the assumption that the recipes will not change, and that basic effects already coded wont change, what does that leave?

I would argue that 50 runs to get a single item upgraded is a bit much. I have seen people run part 4 and get 0 large ingredients after several runs in a row. If you get sacked after 10 or so runs, that means 5 WEEKS of running the shroud constantly to the exclusion of everything else pretty much - to get ONE item fully upgraded. And few people only have one character they like to play, so that means - if you want to get upgrades - you will pretty much never be leaving the shroud for the next few months, and burnout will be setting in....

The bonuses at tier 3 are certainly better. They should take longer and more effort. But really, they are only about twice as good as tier 2, maybe three times with added effects in ....maybe. So a double or triple amount of effort is certainly a proper amount for the rewards at the end. But not 12 times, or even 6 times.

Since I dont expect the recipes to change (maybe they will get tweaked for bugs or as some are discovered to be severely underpowered - like d8 guard for earth), I believe that one of a couple things probably should happen.

A) Make both chests in part 4 ingredient chests.
B) Make the drop rate for large ingredients so that there is a 100% chance of at least 1 drop in the chest.
C) or both of the above.

Riggs

[Cowdenicus]

another solution since there is no warded chest in this raid would be to increase the number of chests in part 5 to 4 (just like when you kill the reaver).... and make 2 of them always drop ingredients.

[Mad_Bombardier]

another solution since there is no warded chest in this raid would be to increase the number of chests in part 5 to 4 (just like when you kill the reaver).... and make 2 of them always drop ingredients.

I seriously think people got spoiled by 3 chests for Medium ingredients. 1 Small, 2 Medium, 2 Large chests would have been okay.

And yes, it's more ingredients for special tier3 upgrades, but it's also pretty spiffy gear. So, it should be rare. No extra chests needed.

[Cowdenicus]

because of the raid lockout, i have stopped completing the raid. just isnt worth a 3 day lockout for 2 meh chests.

[Mad_Bombardier]

because of the raid lockout, i have stopped completing the raid. just isnt worth a 3 day lockout for 2 meh chests.

Now, that is a different story. Farming for Large ingredients is excessively tedious due to your choices; 1 chest for ingredients or 2 chests with the timer.

Not sure how to remedy that, however. (And I do understand I'm flipping positions, here.) Maybe ingredients in both Part5 chests is the solution. Then you have the choice of repeat farming 1 chest in part4 or 3 chests with timer in part5.

[Hendrik]

I seriously think people got spoiled by 3 chests for Medium ingredients. 1 Small, 2 Medium, 2 Large chests would have been okay.

And yes, it's more ingredients for special tier3 upgrades, but it's also pretty spiffy gear. So, it should be rare. No extra chests needed.

Agreed.

[BlueLightBandit]

I seriously think people got spoiled by 3 chests for Medium ingredients. 1 Small, 2 Medium, 2 Large chests would have been okay.

And yes, it's more ingredients for special tier3 upgrades, but it's also pretty spiffy gear. So, it should be rare. No extra chests needed.

Doubly agreed.

The third tier is teh uberist. It SHOULD be the most difficult to get.

[Yaga_Nub]

Doubly agreed.

The third tier is teh uberist. It SHOULD be the most difficult to get.

Triply agreed?

[ENGRAV0]

It is the choice of the player, go for the "Special" upgrade, or go for a less expensive Tier 3 upgrade. The less "Special" tier 3 upgrades are still awesome, and you can get that with ONE completion.

It comes down to a choice, that each player must assume responsibility for, want the "Special" stuff, then you will have to wait longer, want "SOME" "Great" stuff, then less of a wait.

I would personnaly love for there to be more tier 3 ingredient drops, but it would seem that it is put together something like this:

Tier 1: Available to most people, just complete part/Phase 1, gather enough ingredients, and craft;
Tier 2: Available to a large portion of players, great incentives based on possible bonuses gathered;
Tier 3 Good (Used "good:, as to NOT overpower the next level): Avalable to those that will commit to a time sink, and in turn "CAN" improve the relations "OVERALL" of chances for less experienced players to learn by filling a few gaps in party composition over time;
Tier 3 "Great": Avalable to those that are willing to commit to achieving and striving for the tedious. Those that want really "GOOD" loot have multiple opportunities to gather and trade, but those that are really willing to grind and spend a LOT of time, can, over time, earn the "GREAT"er versions available. Your patience is rewarded if you choose to hold off, gatehr twice the amount of ingredients, and then go for the gusto.

[maddmatt70]

I would argue that 50 runs to get a single item upgraded is a bit much. I have seen people run part 4 and get 0 large ingredients after several runs in a row. If you get sacked after 10 or so runs, that means 5 WEEKS of running the shroud constantly to the exclusion of everything else pretty much - to get ONE item fully upgraded. And few people only have one character they like to play, so that means - if you want to get upgrades - you will pretty much never be leaving the shroud for the next few months, and burnout will be setting in....

The bonuses at tier 3 are certainly better. They should take longer and more effort. But really, they are only about twice as good as tier 2, maybe three times with added effects in ....maybe. So a double or triple amount of effort is certainly a proper amount for the rewards at the end. But not 12 times, or even 6 times.



Riggs

I disagree with some of your numbers and your approach.. My goal now is always to do completion runs and not shroud 1-4. The chest on part 4 is about a 50% drop rate, but the chest on part 5 I think actually has a higher drop rate because I almost always tend to get large ingredients from there regardless if it were a 50% like in part 4 I would average 1 ingredient per completion run. I have 5 players ready and could have 2 more ready if I so choose. If I just do completion runs I will have the ingredients according to your numbers in 24 shroud completion runs. Shroud completions take on average 60-90 minutes for me so in less then 36 hours of game time I would have one tier 3 upgrade special item.. I believe the chest on part 5 has a higher drop rate and that is actually closer to 75% so adjust your numbers accordingly.. The extra bonus to all this is I will get a 20th bonus award.. I would estimate that I could get a tier 3 upgrade in 2 weeks if I ran completion runs on all my current raid ready characters.. Thus far my 2 bards and my fighter have been consistantly running completion runs right when they get off timer and my cleric has run a few runs so I am averaging about 7 completion runs a week although I am trying to increase that number..

[MysticTheurge]

5. It was mentioned during speculation over what path would lead to special tier 3 upgrades that IF it required two shards, then either the effect would be overpowered, or the cost in ingredients would be very high compared to the output effect. i.e. Slay living on a weapon costs 12 ingredients and several power cells. Transmuting(and keen/slicing) requires 24 and twice as many shards and power cells. Is it worth it?

Yes.

[Aspenor]

Adding transmuting to these weapons appearing in the Shroud is like...totally uber...yes it's worth it.