To the Developers, State of the Cleric Address.

[Solieri]

Don't get frustrated, Gornin. The board regulars will have thier uber contests... that is the typical board banter of regulars who hang out on boards.

That doesn't mean that others aren't reading your posts and even agree with you. I see what you are saying about the average player, and it makes sense. It's all good.

[Cowdenicus]

Why are you being so thick? There may be no way YOU can do it. But it is a common occurance on Khyber. When mod 6 went live I bought 100 heal scrolls, 100 mass cure mod scrolls, 100 greater restoration scrolls, 100 resurrection scrolls (raise is for wimps). After ransacking the quest several times and without buying more supplies, I now have 141 heal scrolls, 101 mass cure mod scrolls, 100 greater restoration scrolls, and 98 resurrection scrolls. And I've been given plat many times after even 1-4 loot runs.

[Gunga]

I think the Heal Scroll is causing a large problem for game balance. Its inclusion on vendors would seem to indicate that the developers intend us to use these (and lots of them!) as a tool to solve adventure content. I think heal scrolls, and infinite vendor access to scrolls and wands in general, end up breaking the D&D concept of resource scarcity. You give our characters limited SPs and limited shrine use and then add a supply of consumables to counter-act that. Thats not very smart, at least not at the current vendor prices for wands and scrolls.

I would rather have content be designed and played via tactics that require resource management other than dozens of Heal scrolls and mana potions. At least the mana potions are expensive enough not to be a truly reliable resource. Its bad that cleric players, more than any other class, have the burden of needing 100s of 1000s of gold invested in consumables at high levels, and then they are expected to burn through that at an alarming rate.

Please fix.

I think the game has been set up quite well, and allows players of all levels of competence to develop a style that works for them. We could adjust the resource management problem you're speaking of by using less heal scrolls or wands. Then, not only would we have to manage our resources more wisely, but those we are healing. Which could mean that joining a group with 2 WF Barbs and a batman rogue as the main tanks might not be a good idea, unless we are confident of their capabilities. Or maybe the zerging pseudotanks will decide to load up on some more pots, get some ac and play a little smarter after we let them die a few times.

I run primarily with my guild. We waste tons of extra resources while we are learning new content and establishing roles for completion...the first shroud completion cost us 100s of heal scrolls and about 100 big boy mana pots. Once everyone learns what to do, the use of scrolls and pots decrease dramatically and actually makes room in the quest for a couple pikers. We can get pretty far by adjusting our playing styles if we are having some difficulties before we go crying to the devs for a rework of the game...just my 2 cents.

[thatguy]

I have 3 superior potency 6 items.... for nukes this is all i need.

Superior devotion 7 and 8 on the other hand would power up mass cure serious and critical respectively (and only those 2 spells) hence my mass healing would be 50% more effective. (for those 2 spells)

The best I have is greater potency 7, with superior combustion 7 items out there with almost as much frequency as spell pen 7 scepters, I can't believe that there are no Superior potency 7 or 8 items out there. Why was this obviously overlooked? Horrible over site if you ask me.

[HumanJHawkins]

The one thing I have found to be severely lacking are Devotion items. I mean the best devotion item I have seen to date is Superior Devotion 6. The best Devotion item one can craft (known to date) is Superior Devotion 6, yet even as far back as Mod 4 I have been carrying around a superior potency 6 item, which means essentially my ability to heal (power wise) has gone up exactly 0%.

Wait a minute... Are you saying that Potency and Devotion stack?

I never even thought to look for that... But I also have no problem healing even a raged barbarian in one shot without it... Still... It would free up my empower healing feat for something else...

[Mad_Bombardier]

Wait a minute... Are you saying that Potency and Devotion stack?

No, he is not.

[Gornin]

Don't get frustrated, Gornin. The board regulars will have thier uber contests... that is the typical board banter of regulars who hang out on boards.

That doesn't mean that others aren't reading your posts and even agree with you. I see what you are saying about the average player, and it makes sense. It's all good.

Thanks for the kind words, but how can I not get frustrated when people put words in your mouth? And it isn't banter, it's disrespect.

[Strumpoo]

I think a lot of people are agreeing that the clerics need some help. The whole "my build is better than your build" has kind of taken over the post now though.

I will state it again, clerics and arcanes need more spells. We not only need an increase in numbers of spells but an increase in USEFUL spells.

How many casters out there are specd for lightning and acid damage...?? /crickets chirping

It would be nice to increase the options and the spell arsenal for the casting classes.

Those of you saying you don't expend resources in the new raid are full of it. You know you are, you know it requires expendables. Quit trying to make yourselves look like the Uber Leetz gamerZZ, all you are doing is making yourself look foolish and no one really cares.

I think someone, the OP, put together a well thought out first post with some of his concerns and some ideas on how to fix them.

If no one ever looked in chaging the dynamics of the game, we would still be running around with tanks and their one click "uber fighter boosts" along with full plate wearing evaders, "all web all the time" arcanes, among other things. Ideas should constantly given to the devs on game play and improvement. It helps them make a better game, and that is what we all want.

No need to jump on him because his opinion differs from yours, how about thinking of ways to improve his situation (which some of you did, with the mass heal suggestions), instead of attacks and bashing his characters.

No need to bash him for running a 28 pt build. Two of my mains are 28 pointers (don't want to reroll since I like them) and they do just fine, in fact, they excel in this game, I don't feel like I am "gimped" by running either of them.

[Zuldar]

!

1) Numbers were in previous post, but I will relist them. Just BAB and strength bonus my fighter has +28, my cleric has +15. That is a %90 improved better chance to hit. And why would you start any character with and 8? This game is over the top, so why give up that point. And I also stated that this is my first character, so he is a 28 point build. I think his starting stats were 12,12,12,10,16,14. A good starter for a PnP cleric. I said it in that post that I did not realize how over the top this game was going to be. I claim my own ignorance. My base SP are 1365.

2) I believe my feats are Empower healing / Wep focus blunt / MT / IMT / Rapid reload / Rapid shot and I think Toughness. Not sure on the last one.

3) Then I guess every group I run with just sucks. Or could it be the inflated static instead of iterative attack bonuses, inflated AC's and inflated HP of the mobs? I am pretty sure it is the latter since it is so consistant. And I do inject the occasional CF, Smite or some such to help with CC if I have the time to take from healing, but with the inflated saves and many immunities, it is successful less than %50 of the time, and when they find out something works really well, they nerf it any way.

4) May be silly, but it works much better than when I try to melee and some one dies because it took me too long to finish my sequence and start casting.


Below level 10 or so, it is not too bad and I used to melee regularly with my cleric, but above that, I am just not hitting often enough or for enough damage to make it worthwhile, and that is not due to bad build, it is due to inflation. this character in a PnP campaign would be a very viable build and would spend much less time buffing/healing and alot more time in melee or ranging.

Actually that only amounts to a 53.57142% increase, and that's likely cause your cleric is specced to be gimped at fighting. As mt stated earlier you fighter really only can get 3 to hit higher then a cleric and 5 more damage. A cleric on the other hand can cast divine power giving +3 to hit and 3 to damage. Already they can hit just as often and only do 2 damage less.

So really the only thing a fighter gets over a cleric is 2 damage, 32 hit points, and a bunch of feats from a selection so poor even straight fighters run out of useful stuff to take.

On the other hand a cleric will get a much better will save, self healing, crowd control (nothing better dps wise then having every attack be a crit), the ability to raise dead, insta-gib spells, self buffs such as; resists, prayer and recitation (making their to hit 3 higher then a fighters along with some ac and saves), death ward, freedom of movement, shield of faith for early on when noone has a protection item, protection from evil (which from what I've heard currently stacks for some reason), oh I could just keep spouting off abilities that a fighter will never get without guess what? a cleric.

For your second statement I must say that is an "interesting" choice of feats. For my choices I probably would have taken: empower healing, mental toughness, ewp: khopesh, power attack, improved crit slashing, either imp mental toughness or quicken, maximize. Now this choice is with a nod at keeping other's up and running, if that wasn't a concern say running solo or with a group that can manage themselves I'd switch out maximize for toughness or so.

As for point 3 those situations would affect the fighter as well, and seeing as the cleric can get a higher to hit then a fighter it would be less of an issue.

For point 4 if they die in the short time it takes to perform an attack they shouldn't be that close to combat in the first place. Hypothetically if it did happen just toss them a res, they don't care about the cost of resources why bother caring about their piddly 1000 gold repair bill.

[Gunga]

Those of you saying you don't expend resources in the new raid are full of it. You know you are, you know it requires expendables. Quit trying to make yourselves look like the Uber Leetz gamerZZ, all you are doing is making yourself look foolish and no one really cares.

I guess you're still using a bunch of expendables in the new raid...

We not only need an increase in numbers of spells but an increase in USEFUL spells.

OK. Such as?

How many casters out there are specd for lightning and acid damage...?? /crickets chirping

So you're saying these aren't useful spells and that we should do away with them, or that the devs should make some situations where they'd be more useful? Having the devs add more spells wouldn't solve either of these issues...

[Zuldar]

All you kids talking about melee clerics. Meh the game has 1 major healing class. The cleric. Fine want to play a melee cleric. Tell the group leader (specifically me) your melee so they can kick you out and look for the guy who wants to be a team member.


Back to original discussion. lets look into helping clerics negate some of the consumable debt.

So you're saying that you would rather have a boring fighter, then a fighter who can also heal in a pinch and raise you after you die?

I'll take a well built cleric any day.

[GlassCannon]

So you're saying that you would rather have a boring fighter, then a fighter who can also heal in a pinch and raise you after you die?

I'll take a well built cleric any day.

I'll gladly toss a melee caster out of group any chance I get(A melee cleric reminds me of the legendary Demii Goddess, who sadly no longer exists). The only thing those are good for is soloing, or doing low level content, never end-game content.

As for a Fighter that can Raise Dead, Ressurect, use Heal scrolls and the like with no failure... take a look at Baalzaru. Ftr12/Rog2/Rgr2, Ordos Draconum, Argonessen. His new alt is Spisey McHaggis, Bbn12/Rog2/Rgr2.

[GlassCannon]

Has many pieces of Raid Loot, which is the sole reason she has not been terminated. She is parked until further notice(and has been since MOD 5).

Fix Clerics or this game may die.

Also replace Caster Level and Enhancements on Wands and Scrolls. I'm tired of tossing a Cure Serious for 96, then wand whipping for 28.

[oronisi]

Screenshot or it didnt happen. I personally have played every major MMO on the market and consider myself a very good player and id refuse to go in there without a caster. I really call bullcrap on killing the endguy with that group without questionable tactics and futhermore id refuse to use that many consumables in a group like that when i could give half(and generally I donate to the cleric after the quest) of that money to said cleric.


After re reading your group makeup I stand by my 1st impression of calling bullcrap .

I'm simply amazed at the limited scope in which people play this game. As for the final boss, we had 2 paladins, my lvl 9 rogue had 2 lvl s splashed in paladin, and the batman build fighter had 2 levels of paladin splashed. We all used lay on hands and smite evil to take him down real quick. You can call it bullcrap and believe that you need your nannybot as much as you want...whatever helps you sleep at night. I will continue to have fun with whatever group forms and adjust our tactics and quest selection according to party and desired challenge.

[Turial]

Has many pieces of Raid Loot, which is the sole reason she has not been terminated. She is parked until further notice(and has been since MOD 5).

Fix Clerics or this game may die.

Also replace Caster Level and Enhancements on Wands and Scrolls. I'm tired of tossing a Cure Serious for 96, then wand whipping for 28.

This one should go back to where it was back before the enhancement change where items and everything boosted your wands and scrolls. When it was changed it was a good thing as spells were a poor substitute for the boosted power of wands and scrolls. Now that sp pools were changed and levels are higher we will likely see less of cleric relying almost 100% on consumables. In cases where they have to be used though it would be a nice boost rather then a loosing battle.

[wiglin]

I was playing back up healer to one of the tanks on a shroud normal, and I used 83 heal scrolls. I do have an issue with quest design that causes you to have to use scrolls for completion, and without glitching or exploiting that is quite a challenge on some quests. Scrolls, Wands, and Mana Pots, should be for emergency use. Anti-wipe type stuff. That is not the case in ddo. I do not agree with this type of quest design. The D20 system has alot of flaws. We do not have defense like most other mmorpgs, we have AC and DR. With Elite mobs hitting AC in the 50's with ease, and no other real way to mitigate damage since dr does not stack it leads to alot of resources being used. This in my opinion is poor game design.

I enjoy this game, but I agree something should be done. The reason why other mmo's have a gameplay design of tanks, dps, support, and healer, is because it works. With AC losing its value and no real way to solidify aggro, hitpoints become king which means hitpoint recovery becomes survivability. This leads to lots of external resources being used to finish a quest.

[Angelus_dead]

I was playing back up healer to one of the tanks on a shroud normal, and I used 83 heal scrolls. I do have an issue with quest design that causes you to have to use scrolls for completion

There is no such thing as a "healer to one of the tanks" in The Shroud. If you're doing it right, you simply have two clerics assigned to heal all tanks.

Using single-target Heal spells in The Shroud is a tactical error which hugely inflates the resource consumption.

[oronisi]

There is no such thing as a "healer to one of the tanks" in The Shroud. If you're doing it right, you simply have two clerics assigned to heal all tanks.

Using single-target Heal spells in The Shroud is a tactical error which hugely inflates the resource consumption.

He could be talking about part 2, where you are by design supposed to split the bosses apart. It's real hard to AoE heal 4 different tanks on 4 different corners of the map.

[Angelus_dead]

He could be talking about part 2, where you are by design supposed to split the bosses apart. It's real hard to AoE heal 4 different tanks on 4 different corners of the map.

Yes, but in part 2 you'd have to really screw up to need 80 scrolls of healing. Even 5 scrolls would mean you'd messed up somehow... especially considering all the free mana from tree trunks.

Parts 4 or 5 are where healing can be challenging, and that's where players need to reconsider the value of Mass Cure spells, which are more effective the bigger your group is. Someone who tries to use the "Hero Method" from VON6 is throwing plat away.

[Cowdenicus]

Yes, but in part 2 you'd have to really screw up to need 80 scrolls of healing. Even 5 scrolls would mean you'd messed up somehow... especially considering all the free mana from tree trunks.

Parts 4 or 5 are where healing can be challenging, and that's where players need to reconsider the value of Mass Cure spells, which are more effective the bigger your group is. Someone who tries to use the "Hero Method" from VON6 is throwing plat away.

And the value of mass cure spells would go up dramatically with superior devotion 7 and 8 items. As opposed to the artificial cap of superior devotion 6.