Help me build a 28 Pt Fighter with AC in mind.

[Brummbar]

Help me build a 28 point high AC Fighter. I don't mind sacrificing a little offense, so I can have better Defense. I think I want to start at Pally level 1 or splash at level pally at level 2 for the extra 1 AC and healing wand usage.

I want as many Fighter feats that I can get while maintaining the highest AC possible.




I would like to use normal, easy to obtain gear and get as high as possible AC.


That means.. please 'don't' factor in +5 Mithral Full Plate.

Please 'don't' factor Raid gear.

Please 'Dodn't' factor +5 mithral Tower Shield.


Here are the things I feel I can easily obtain.

I can get +5 Adamantine Plate ( BaM ore runs), +5 Heavy Shield and +5 Tower Shield.

I can get Ring of Balance (Invaders) - great XP I do it with all my toons multiple times.

I can easily buy of the auction house +4 Protection Item.

So....

With out that exotic raid gear, and 32 builds and Tomes.... how do I best proceed?

I know the build experts in here will have little difficulty showing me how to get the best possible, non exotic, every man, high AC fighter.

Also... mix in some Will Save focus if ya can. No point in High AC if every Cleric caster out there can single handedly take me out with one spell.

[Hadrian]

The problem with that is this "every man" AC fighter doesn't get enough AC to be practically useful.

Stats become a problem if you want to add paladin levels and boost up those saves, but you could get away with:

Dwarf
16 str
15 dex
12 con
13 int (You'd be significantly better off with 12 int and 13 con or 10 cha to start, then use a +1 int tome to hit 13 for CE.)
8 wis
9 cha

You'd actually get better stats if you went drow, but you would lose out on dwarven armor mastery. This will limit you to 4 dex bonus to AC instead of 7 possible max.

With just +5 adamantine full plate and no mithral tower, you'll be using a heavy shield instead of a tower shield.

Go 3 levels of paladin for +2 to all saves and AC (with I believe it is 4 total action points spent) and disease and fear immunity. It will also give your lay on hands enough power to be useful, though not great. You'll receive +1 to all saves for each level of charisma modifier. Take Force of Personality with one of your many feats and you can then totally ignore wisdom and get double your cha modifier added to your will saves. This should give you solid saves across the board.

Armor Class:

10 base
+13 adamantine full plate
+5-7 dex bonus (explaination below)
+7 heavy shield
+5 combat expertise
+4 protection item
+2 chaosguardes
+2 paladin aura
+1 dodge feat

+3 barkskin potion
--------------------
52 (with a dex bonus of 5)

With typical buffs in a group you might see +1-3 more AC over that. This won't stop much from hitting you in the elite content for level 14+, but you can hit that magic number of 55 for gianthold if your group has some decent buffs. In the quests in the vale, you may get hit on normal by some things, but you will notice your AC helping

Dex bonus explaination

It will cost you 24 action points to get your dex bonus to AC up to the full 7 and require a very rare item. It will cost you 12 action points to get it up to 5. 6 dex bonus to AC is your practical limit if you can speare 18 action points.

Starting with 15 dex, you will need to find a +5 item. As a dwarf you cannot boost this with racial enhancements, but you can make up for losing the constitution at creation. 15+5 item = 20 dex and +5 bonus to armor. Later when you get a +6 item and +1 tome, you'd go up to +6 dex bonus to AC. If you someday got really lucky and find a +3 tome, then you'd cap at 24 dex and +7 dex bonus.

Alternatively, you could drop your other stats a little and boost dexterity to achieve the max dex bonus without needing more than a +1 tome. You would be pushing the limits at this point, though. Starting a low-AC but AC-focused tank with very low con is not a good idea. Drop too much charisma and your saves will suffer. Drop any int and you get no combat expertise.

A full 32-point build with no limitations on equipment would have +9 mithral tower shield, +5 protection, +7 dex bonus (with only 12 APs spent because of mithral FP) +3 chattering ring and possibly +4 natural armor with madstone rage.

This gives them an advantage of roughly 6-8 AC over your build, along with more hit points and better saves because the stats are not spread so thin. With the to-hits you're defending against, this 6 AC goes through the top end of the range. This makes it a night and day difference between the two armor class ratings. For example, suppose something has a +40 to hit. Your 52 AC is protecting you from ~60% of the attacks coming in. The 58-60 AC on the other fighter means they're protected from 90-95% of the incoming attacks.

Now with CE on and a shield in hand, your offense is limited. If you have the same weapon as the 60 AC min/maxed fully geared build, you're killing no faster than he is, but he's taking less than a quarter of the damage you're taking, has stronger saves and more hit points to absorb the damage he does take. He has a lot more time to deal with whatever situation he is facing than you do.







That's why this build is not practical.

[EKKM]

Check on this index for the Riott Tank build. It is a 28 point human fighter intimitank build. I am currently, generally, following the build. While I am only at level 4 it is really working well. High AC, high saves, good skills.

[Buttes69]

Check on this index for the Riott Tank build. It is a 28 point human fighter intimitank build. I am currently, generally, following the build. While I am only at level 4 it is really working well. High AC, high saves, good skills.

The people at the end of that thread seem to be saying the build doesn't make sense anymore. Is that true?

[Impaqt]

The Riot build is certainly not uber gear friendly.. No High AC Tank is....

+10 Base
+13 Armor, +5 Mith Full plate
+9 Shield, +5 Mith Tower of Bashing
+3 natural armor - Seal of Earth
+6 Dodge AC - Dodge Feat, Chattering Ring, Chaosgards
+5 Protection Necklace
+5 Combat Expertise Feat
+6 Dex Modifier (armor and Tower mastery required)
-------
57 AC (58 AC with Parrying weapon, But I don't usually use that

+5 Mithral Full Plate - Rare Drop
+5 Mithral Tower Sheld - Rare Drop
Seal of earth -Raid Gear) - Rare Drop
Chattering Ring - Raid Gear
+5 Protection Necklace
Chaosguards - Rare Drop

Trying to build a High AC Tank without Raid gear and Rare drops is pretty much pointless.... Its simply not effective for High end COntent.

Economy Tank AC Breakdown
10
13 +5 adamantine Full Plate
4 Dex Bonus with Tower Sheild Master 2 and Fighter Armor Master 3
9 Steel Tower Sheild
2 Invasers Ring
1 Dodge (Feat)
4 Protection Item
5 Combat Expertiese
1 Paladin Aura
---
49

You can add a Bark Potion for 1 more, and ya got boosts for a few more points situationally. Decent enough for most normal contenet, but pretty pointless on had and elite end game.

[Arianrhod]

Trying to build a High AC Tank without Raid gear and Rare drops is pretty much pointless.... Its simply not effective for High end COntent.

Economy Tank AC Breakdown
10
13 +5 adamantine Full Plate
4 Dex Bonus with Tower Sheild Master 2 and Fighter Armor Master 3
9 Steel Tower Sheild
2 Invasers Ring
1 Dodge (Feat)
4 Protection Item
5 Combat Expertiese
1 Paladin Aura
---
49

You can add a Bark Potion for 1 more, and ya got boosts for a few more points situationally. Decent enough for most normal contenet, but pretty pointless on had and elite end game.

Well, on the other hand, someone looking for a build with no raid gear might be planning on only doing normal content, so it's not that bad. They can always reroll a 32-pointer incorporating gear earned & lessons learned later if they choose.

[Brummbar]

Thank you all.

Your feedback was useful.

Most people that I know who casually play, are not looking to do ELITE end game content exclusively. They are enjoying the world, the dungeon design, and the overall game layout. Elite content often time is more frustrating than fun.. some do like elite stuff, mostly because the chance to get a power five item or a stat 6 item or a Mithral Plate option.. etc. If that's their goal, awesome. Cool.

Just not my goal. I want the semi easy button. A little challenge is nice. Hence I do Normal and Hard content mostly.

Now, those who responded made it rather clear that a 52-55 AC will not hold up well in end game, elite content. I am ok with not doing that kinda content exclusively.

I have a high DPS/low AC Maldini Weapon Master Build. In the Giant Hold I get hit often. I just want to shore that issue.

Can't really get on board with more than one, maybe two raids per month, and that's pushing it. Raid gear just not viable for the most part.

Don't have 1750 favor, have only one piece of raid gear, the Cloak of the Silver Concord.. about the most useless raid gear of them all, but still enjoy my time in Storm Reach.

So, in light of the responses and the tilt that it will be a sub optimal build, I knew that when I posed the question. I'll never have the time or commitment
to get uber raid gear.

But if I can get over 50 AC I'll be happy. Thanks for all the cool feedback!

[Hadrian]

Well, if you play that character long enough, you will eventually get all of the gear. It's not necessarily like these builds start off with all of the gear they need. Even the best equipped players are at the random mercy of the raid chests.

I had to run the Titan about 25 times to get the chattering ring. I have a friend who is still looking for the belt from the Titan after 70+ runs. If you do raids for fun, items will eventually drop. If you get into raids with a lot of DDO vets, they might already have most of the items, so that they will be more likely to pass whatever drops on to someone with a new character.

You might only be a 28-point build, but the more gear you get, the less that matters.

Also, I counted the chaosgardes and 3 levels of paladin, so my AC breakdown is 3 higher than Impaqt's.

I don't consider the chaosgardes to be high-end gear. Pretty much anyone can get their hands on those as they drop rarely from a level 8 quest.

[Riot]

The people at the end of that thread seem to be saying the build doesn't make sense anymore. Is that true?

No. People for the most part are just haters.

fact of the matter is, the Riott Tank was built and posted day 1.
it's still effective, (as a 28 point build), and still has advantages over other builds.

It's just a solid defensive build.

And for the record, when it was built. Nobody had even completed a raid. Raid gear was not a factor, nor were tomes.

[Hadrian]

Your Riott build is designed around having a focused and dedicated group. You probably get more buffs than the original poster can expect in his typical group. The build works fine, but it is suited to a play style that he may not be prepared for.

Wouldn't you suggest some paladin levels for someone who does not expect to be in such well organized groups? He will have better AC and saves without outside buffs this way. Taking 3 levels of paladin only takes away two fighter feats, and at this point we have more feats than are useful. Besides that, you get 2 AC and 2 to all saves for 4 APs, plus more to all saves based on CHA modifier. If you were going to use any of your feats on saves or armor class bonuses, the 3 levels of paladin will actually give you a much larger benefit.

The people at the end of that thread seem to be saying the build doesn't make sense anymore. Is that true?

It probably lacked quite a bit in mod 5, but in mod 6 an intimitank with very high intimidate is really a great asset to a team. Riott's build isn't quite optimized by the current standards, but that should be expected for a two-year old build. It's still functional.

[Riot]

To anyone who plays solo, I fully reccomend a paladin. or Cleric.

Adding one level or 2 of paladin has small advantages. it's not bad, nor is it good. it's preference.
Having a solid group is not a neccessity of the Riott build. And neither are buffs.

it was never designed to "need" stuff to be used effectively.
But it is designed to be able to take advantage of everything out there.

There's a difference there. It doesn't waste resources per se.

And who says I'm not optimized by current standards? Where's that difinitive work written?
I think it's only certain opinions that think so. I find I'm quite optimized. I have been doing this a while now.

[Hadrian]

To anyone who plays solo, I fully reccomend a paladin. or Cleric.

Adding one level or 2 of paladin has small advantages. it's not bad, nor is it good. it's preference.
Having a solid group is not a neccessity of the Riott build. And neither are buffs.

it was never designed to "need" stuff to be used effectively.
But it is designed to be able to take advantage of everything out there.

There's a difference there. It doesn't waste resources per se.

And who says I'm not optimized by current standards? Where's that difinitive work written?
I think it's only certain opinions that think so. I find I'm quite optimized. I have been doingthsi a while now.

You have been doing this for a while now, and your build has seen a lot of changes in how the game works.

This is something that is fairly common knowledge to anyone who has "been doing this for a while" and the reason for so many paladin level 3 splash builds over the past year+ of the game, so let's not pretend that this is something that hasn't been shown already. I know you're proud of your build and a bit defensive about it. I am not saying that your build is bad or unplayable. I am just stating that the paladin splash gives up nothing but 4 action points to gain +2 ac, +2 saves that can be shared as a buff with the group, an additional amount of saves based on his charisma modifier, and fear and disease immunity. If you can't afford the 4 APs, then you stil get +1 ac and +1 to all saves, and the rest of the benefits are not impacted.

With the addition of 6 extra levels, there is no shortage of feats to fit everything the Riott tank needs. Losing the 2 feats for the 3 levels of paladin doesn't hurt anymore. Nevermind that the lost feats are made up for and more if you drop luck of heroes and lightning reflex, since the paladin splash will gain you significantly more saves than those feats.

Force of Personality (to replace iron will) allows you to forget about wisdom, saving an item slot and allowing you to feel free to boost charisma a little instead of wisdom. This further improves your saves, lay on hands and intimidate, and nets more will saves than iron will would have.

You can wear the same items, take the same relevant enhancements and feats for AC, except that the paladin actually has additional free slots due to the lack of a need for wisdom and the granted immunities. The paladin will have his aura over and above this at all times. It can be shared with others. This is not a drawback.

There is no difference in the hit point level that can be reached between the full fighter and the pally splash.

There is no difference in the intimidate skill, except that the paladin may have higher charisma.

If AC, saves, hit points and intimidate skill are the main points of the build, and the paladin splash allows for equal or higher levels of each without giving up important feats, then the paladin splash is more optimized by today's standards. True, when standing beside that paladin splash build you'll have the same AC because of the aura, but the paladin splash will still have superior saves. Also, that paladin splash is sharing his aura with the group and improving everyone's AC and saves a little bit.

Being optimized is not the same as being effective. You can be effective without being optimized, but I find it hard to believe that you can say that you could not make Riott better if you had him to do over again without losing all of the gear you've accumulated. If you can't, then for as long as you've been doing this, you haven't learned anything.

[Snoggy]

Losing the 2 feats for the 3 levels of paladin doesn't hurt anymore.

If those feats are spent on things like Iron Will or Lightning Reflexes then it's really more of a tradeoff than anything else isn't it?

since the paladin splash will gain you significantly more saves than those feats.

Significantly? Like what number values are we talking here?

Force of Personality (to replace iron will) allows you to forget about wisdom, saving an item slot and allowing you to feel free to boost charisma a little instead of wisdom. This further improves your saves, lay on hands and intimidate, and nets more will saves than iron will would have.

You can wear the same items, take the same relevant enhancements and feats for AC, except that the paladin actually has additional free slots due to the lack of a need for wisdom and the granted immunities.

Do you not find any irony in building a paladin ... a wisdom based spell caster ... that eschews wisdom as a statistic?

[Riot]

All he says is true to a certain degree. Splashing a Paladin gives some advantages. heck all combo spalshing gives an advantage.
Witness the rise and fall of the Batman Builds. Once touted as the end all be all to tanks and rogues.

Toughting the paladin immnities, to me, is actually pretty laughable. Since I've been immune to poison, disease, fear since I don't know when. Heck nowadays I can do that with 1 item.

As Snoggy pointed out the extra feats I take to boost saves, are becuase I have the extra feats to take in the first place.
And the significant advantage isn't really that significant. Esepcially when you do consider how many Paladins are actually running around out there. Not finding a paladin Aura nowadays it actually harder than finding one. And for that I thank the posters of the Paladin splash. Sincerely even.

Yes AC, saves, hit points and intimidate skill are the main points of the build, but not the only points. That's usually what the pally splashers miss read. There's alot mroe to the build than just having the defacto highest saves in the game while standing alone.

there's skills, attack capabilites, versatility, and future leveling to consider as well. AP's included.

I'm not saying the Pally splash is bad. I think that's what you may be thinking.
honestly, at this point I couldn't care less if you thought this build was good or not. or optimized or not.
You've not been the one who's played it since release.
Play what makes you happy.

ps: if I had to start all over again, I'd unlock the 32 point build and play the exact same build with a few more ATT points.
that's the only complaint I have, is being sandbagged since they upped the point buy.

[Averroes]

If those feats are spent on things like Iron Will or Lightning Reflexes then it's really more of a tradeoff than anything else isn't it?

Significantly? Like what number values are we talking here?

The tradeoff isn't save feats vs. pally splash -- it is attribute points in charisma or not.

And the numbers we're talking about vary from perhaps +5 to all saves at the low end (20 modified charisma on a well-equipped dwarf or warforged) to +8 at the high end (26 modified charisma on a drow), and of course force of personality to double the benefit to your will save.


Riott's saves aren't posted, but I'd put his will save at roughly 5 base + 4 wisdom + 3 feats + 2 luck + 4 resistance + 4 ghero = 22. Fort will be higher, reflex will be comparable.

Compare that to a 14/2 fighter/pally with 26 charisma and force of personality: 4 base + 8 cha + 8 divine grace + 1 aura + 2 luck + 4 resistance + 4 ghero = 31. And they both have the same number of available feats with this setup -- the pally splash loses 1 fighter feat and spends one on FOP; Riott uses one for Luck of Heroes and one for Iron Will.


I find the 3rd paladin level to be a bad tradeoff in most cases, fwiw...

[Arianrhod]

Do you not find any irony in building a paladin ... a wisdom based spell caster ... that eschews wisdom as a statistic?

But if you're only taking 1-3 paladin levels, you aren't building a "wisdom-based spellcaster". You're substituting a levels of a tank class powered largely by charisma for one powered by oodles of feats.

[Snoggy]

But if you're only taking 1-3 paladin levels, you aren't building a "wisdom-based spellcaster". You're substituting a levels of a tank class powered largely by charisma for one powered by oodles of feats.

A paladin is still a wisdom based spellcaster. That's what the class is. Which is why it is ironic to treat a Paladin stat as a dump stat.

[Arianrhod]

A paladin is still a wisdom based spellcaster. That's what the class is. Which is why it is ironic to treat a Paladin stat as a dump stat.

It's not a spellcaster of any kind until you take 4 levels of it. No blue bar, not a spellcaster.

[Hadrian]

Snoggy:

Look at it this way. As I said in my post, you can drop luck of heroes and lightning reflexes from Riott's build to make up for the two fighter feats. This gives you two extra any-type feats that you can now take on the 3 paladin splash, but you lose two fighter-only feats.

What you gain for this at just 16 charisma (+2 at creation +6 item) is +2 AC and all saves that is sharable with the aura. You also get +3 to all saves via Divine Grace for your +3 CHA mod. Then you replace iron will with FoP, and you get an additional +3 to will saves.

The original Riott build gets +1 all saves +2 reflex and +2 will for those feats. He gets +1 will for spending those two creation points on wisdom.

The 3 paladin splash gets +2 aura bonus to all saves +3 DG bonus to all saves, and +3 additional will saves.

Totals

Riott: +1/+3/+4
Splash: +5/+5/+8

Now, if you stand the splash build beside Riott, he has +3/+5/+6, but the splash build has this benefit at all times and can share it with the entire group.

Of course, it's not difficult to get a +1 cha tome and take paladin cha 1.

So for a total of 6 APs, the paladin splash can reach +6/+6/+10 as a 28-point build and using the same stat configuration as Riott, except for raising his starting charisma with the points that were put into wisdom on the Riott tank.

So yes, I guess you can call it a trade off. You're trading Iron Will, Luck of Heroes and Lightning Reflexes for the equivalent of 6 Luck of Heroes plus 2 Iron Will. If you honestly do not consider this a significant difference, then I do not know what you would accept as significant.

On top of that, you save an item slot because you do not need a wisdom item for saves anymore, and the CHA item you wear will help your intimidate. Riott boasted that he can accomplish all of the immunities of a paladin with one item, but that is one more than a paladin needs. This saves an additional item slot. This is also significant.

Lastly, you replace any-type feats taken up by the save feats, and you lose fighter-feat-only feats. This means that you free up more versitile feat slots. This may or may not matter depending on what feats you wish to take.

The drawback is the total of 6 APs spent. A mostly fighter build easily has this many to spare unless he's trying to max out a couple of his action boosts or something. Supposing that this drawback was completely unacceptable, for 0 APs spent you'd get -2/-2/-3 for a total of +4/+4/+7 saves vs the Riotts +1/+3/+4. The aura would lower so that Riott beside the splash build would then have +2/+4/+5.

Yes AC, saves, hit points and intimidate skill are the main points of the build, but not the only points. That's usually what the pally splashers miss read. There's alot mroe to the build than just having the defacto highest saves in the game while standing alone.

there's skills, attack capabilites, versatility, and future leveling to consider as well. AP's included.

Part of my point was that the paladin splash does not cost you anything in any of these areas. In fact your intimidate skill and UMD skills (if you choose to take UMD) can both be higher due to the larger focus on charisma with no negative side effect. You don't receieve anything at 14-16 fighter that you can't take with a 13/3 or 14/2 build. Aside from extra action boost 2, there are no level 14+ fighter enhancements.

I'd have to say that versitility goes to the paladin splash. He has everything that the fighter build has, plus paladin abilities.

Future considerations would have to depend on them adding some powerful enhancements late in the path of a build, since fighters run out of steam in PnP past level 12. Those enhancements would have to outweigh having all of the benefits of the pally splash. That is the only advantage to staying pure fighter. You can hope that they add something eventually to make it worth it, and if they do, you can take that.

[Riot]

One big reason for staying True Fighter is higher eschelon action point abilities. (which they haven't gotten aroudn to yet, Granted).
The other is the eventual (hopefully) Epic levels. Which are built primarily beneficial for the clases who stay True.