Light hammers should be x3 crits

[Lunewann]

So to make a character for 2-hand finesse weapons, you'd have to spend 1 feat on weapon finesse, and another just to get a weapon you can use? That's pretty lame IMO. If they are going to have THF finessable weapons, there has to be a couple you can use without spending a feat, or it wouldn't be worth it.

Why would it not be worth it??? Is everything about a game have to be POWER play??? DnD PnP is a game that has many rule systems in place where being a twinked out uber means nothing if you have a scrap of wit.

[DNDJESS]

Why would it not be worth it??? Is everything about a game have to be POWER play??? DnD PnP is a game that has many rule systems in place where being a twinked out uber means nothing if you have a scrap of wit.

Is this really your argument for not having two-hand finessable weapons that aren't exotic? I agree, there should be some exotics as an option for a character. But think about it this way - if the only THF finessable weapon is an exotic weapon, you will select the weapon finesse feat, and it will be useless until you gain enough levels to select another feat for the exotic weapon (with the possible exception of warriors who might be able to select both at level 1.) Hardly an ideal situation. Realistically there is no good reason not to have a simple or martial THF finessable weapon.

[EspyLacopa]

Is this really your argument for not having two-hand finessable weapons that aren't exotic? I agree, there should be some exotics as an option for a character. But think about it this way - if the only THF finessable weapon is an exotic weapon, you will select the weapon finesse feat, and it will be useless until you gain enough levels to select another feat for the exotic weapon (with the possible exception of warriors who might be able to select both at level 1.) Hardly an ideal situation. Realistically there is no good reason not to have a simple or martial THF finessable weapon.

You could just use a one-handed or light weapon until you get the proficiency. . .

[DNDJESS]

You could just use a one-handed or light weapon until you get the proficiency. . .

Again, is that really a reason to not have any simple/martial THF finessable weapons? Or are you just arguing for the sake of arguing?

Seriously people, I dont' see any reason why you are agruing against making quarterstaffs finessable. Is there any downside to this at all? It undoubtedly would be an improvement for some people. Would it negatively effect anybody in any way?

[nbhs275]

Again, is that really a reason to not have any simple/martial THF finessable weapons? Or are you just arguing for the sake of arguing?

Seriously people, I dont' see any reason why you are agruing against making quarterstaffs finessable. Is there any downside to this at all? It undoubtedly would be an improvement for some people. Would it negatively effect anybody in any way?

the reasoning is that any weapon that is exotic takes a very detailed amount of practice to master. Martial weapons are a little more common, and similiar. The difference between a scimitar and a longsword isnt huge, but the difference between a greatsword(think a scottish claymore) and a four foot long rapier is huge. The greatsword is made for large momentum swings, while the rapier is rather delicate, and suited mostly for stabbing and whip-like parrys. Its also to prevent anyone from getting a very strong weapon without an investment.

[DNDJESS]

the reasoning is that any weapon that is exotic takes a very detailed amount of practice to master. Martial weapons are a little more common, and similiar. The difference between a scimitar and a longsword isnt huge, but the difference between a greatsword(think a scottish claymore) and a four foot long rapier is huge. The greatsword is made for large momentum swings, while the rapier is rather delicate, and suited mostly for stabbing and whip-like parrys. Its also to prevent anyone from getting a very strong weapon without an investment.

What does any of this have to do with whether or not a quarterstaff should be finessable?

[nbhs275]

What does any of this have to do with whether or not a quarterstaff should be finessable?

quarterstaff is traditionally a duel weapon. Which are never finessable. Then there is also the fact that its a 6-10 foot long pole. Its not boing to be a very exact and quick weapon. Its just a big stick(hence its tiny base cost in pnp).

[DNDJESS]

quarterstaff is traditionally a duel weapon. Which are never finessable. Then there is also the fact that its a 6-10 foot long pole. Its not boing to be a very exact and quick weapon. Its just a big stick(hence its tiny base cost in pnp).

You're right, it wouldn't be an exact and quick weapon if you hold it by the end and swing it like a club. But that's not the way it's used in DDO. Watch the swing animations on a quarterstaff. The characters hold it in the middle and attack with both ends. It is being used more like two 3-foot weapons than one 6-foot weapon.

Anyway, now we're trying to debate how real-life physics apply to a fantasy game. Lets try to stick to how it would impact the game itself if the quarterstaff were finessable.

[nbhs275]

You're right, it wouldn't be an exact and quick weapon if you hold it by the end and swing it like a club. But that's not the way it's used in DDO. Watch the swing animations on a quarterstaff. The characters hold it in the middle and attack with both ends. It is being used more like two 3-foot weapons than one 6-foot weapon.

Anyway, now we're trying to debate how real-life physics apply to a fantasy game. Lets try to stick to how it would impact the game itself if the quarterstaff were finessable.

go in your back yard with a 6 foot pole and swing it around for an hour or so, then cut it in half. Lots of differences in the motions, momentum and striking force.

As far as how it would effect the game? not much seeing 95% of all people who go finesse completly ditch str, and fighting with a 2handed weapon would be pointless for them.

[Riggs]

What does any of this have to do with whether or not a quarterstaff should be finessable?

What does any of this have to do with light hammers?

And who brought up the physics of staves in the first place? The quarterstaff is based off the old english/midieval version which is long and big...and heavy. Martial arts staves are smaller and more nimble - but that is a different set of weapons and styles.

"Hey look the sky is blue!" "Where? I cant see it, is it down this hole?"

[Riggs]

Is this really your argument for not having two-hand finessable weapons that aren't exotic? I agree, there should be some exotics as an option for a character. But think about it this way - if the only THF finessable weapon is an exotic weapon, you will select the weapon finesse feat, and it will be useless until you gain enough levels to select another feat for the exotic weapon (with the possible exception of warriors who might be able to select both at level 1.) Hardly an ideal situation. Realistically there is no good reason not to have a simple or martial THF finessable weapon.

Gee...so it takes extra feats to use a weapon that takes greater skill than a big stick does to use.

Yeah how does that make sense?

[DNDJESS]

And who brought up the physics of staves in the first place? The quarterstaff is based off the old english/midieval version which is long and big...and heavy. Martial arts staves are smaller and more nimble - but that is a different set of weapons and styles.

You're mistaken on what version of quarterstaves this game uses. Quick check on auctions:

Light mace - 4lbs
Quarterstaff - 4lbs.

They are definitely a light weapon. It seems more likely that these are the martial arts type staves, especially judging by the swing animation.

[Mad_Bombardier]

You're mistaken on what version of quarterstaves this game uses. Quick check on auctions:

Light mace - 4lbs
Quarterstaff - 4lbs.

They are definitely a light weapon. It seems more likely that these are the martial arts type staves, especially judging by the swing animation.

Right, D&D Quarterstaves are 4-6 feet (1.2-1.8 m), and lightweight.

But, let's please leave that discussion for later and lets get back to Light Hammers.

[Riggs]

You're mistaken on what version of quarterstaves this game uses. Quick check on auctions:

Light mace - 4lbs
Quarterstaff - 4lbs.

They are definitely a light weapon. It seems more likely that these are the martial arts type staves, especially judging by the swing animation.

Does that mean that rapiers also have a sharp edge because the swing animation says so? I mean, after all the swing animation includes all possible uses and fighting styles and versions of a weapon over the 5000 year history of fighting styles right?

[Laith]

So is a Light Mace. And a light mace has higher base damage and only requires simple proficiency.

yep, at the end of the day we have a one-handed, light, finessable, simple, bludgeoning weapon that is statistically superior to its martial counterpart.

that just flat out shouldn't be.

[Snoggy]

quarterstaff is traditionally a duel weapon. Which are never finessable.

Rapiers and daggers are traditionally used in some duels. Especially before pistols were invented.

EDIT: And as far as the actual topic goes: Yeah, Light Hammers need a tweak.

[Laith]

Rapiers and daggers are traditionally used in some duels. Especially before pistols were invented.

i do believe that nbhs275 misspelled "dual"... of course the actual D&D terminology is "double weapon", not "dual weapon" so i might be mistaken.

[nbhs275]

Rapiers and daggers are traditionally used in some duels. Especially before pistols were invented.

EDIT: And as far as the actual topic goes: Yeah, Light Hammers need a tweak.

yea, im talking about "double weapons", not flintlocks at high noon. In PnP, the quarterstaff was the simplest of a weapon type that allowed you to use a single weapon as if your TWF. Other examples are the orc double axe(basically two axe heads at opposite ends of an elongated shaft) and the dwarven urgesh(a battleaxe on an elongated shaft that ends in a spearpoint). Both of those are exotic.

[DNDJESS]

But, let's please leave that discussion for later and lets get back to Light Hammers.

Sorry, I thought the discussion on light hammers was over, since it was unanimous that they're gimped.

[tenga]

i think teh worst part about teh light hammers being pathetic, is that ive yet to see any dev's comment on it at all. among all the gripes in the game, this has got to be one of the most obvious of them all, i'd at least like to see their logic behind it.