Tenser's Transformation Not Powerful Enough

[MysticTheurge]

See, I disagree. It doesn't give any sizeable bonus to real melee. It only serves to bring pseudo-melees into the realm of real melees.

I actually think it's a good thing with the way DDO is currently set up... and let's other classes at least contribute.

But all the "pseudo-melees" are balanced to have 3/4 BAB. Giving them Full BAB whenever they want it, without having to expend any resources, is contrary to the balance of the system.

And that aside, looking at who might benefit from a DP clickie:

Clerics: Can cast DP.
Bards: Can UMD scrolls/wands of DP (or TT).
Rogues: Can UMD scrolls/wands of DP (or TT).
Wizards: Should be using TT.
Sorcerers: Should be using TT.

[Angelus_dead]

And that aside, looking at who might benefit from a DP clickie:

You forgot monks from your list.

Which is a good point for why it is a good idea for Turbine to fix DP now:
Monks are the only 3/4 BAB class that neither has Divine Power as a known spell nor UMD as a class skill. Thus, they would benefit more than anyone else from DP clickies.

Any nerf coming to DP clickies should be done before monks start getting addicted to them.

[bobbryan2]

But all the "pseudo-melees" are balanced to have 3/4 BAB. Giving them Full BAB whenever they want it, without having to expend any resources, is contrary to the balance of the system.

And that aside, looking at who might benefit from a DP clickie:

Clerics: Can cast DP.
Bards: Can UMD scrolls/wands of DP (or TT).
Rogues: Can UMD scrolls/wands of DP (or TT).
Wizards: Should be using TT.
Sorcerers: Should be using TT.

Yes, they are given a 3/4 BAB.

BUT... they don't have the ability to deal with increasing strength discrepancy in DDO. A caster might have a 14 strength, while a Fighter has 34. That's before the weapon focus feats, weapon enhancements and everything else.

Basically... to hits in this game are a lot higher than simply BAB. I realize it's not exactly canon... but it seems to me that the DP clickies get the other classes right where they need to be. Whereas in pnp.... DP will turn a cleric into a hell of a combatant. Here it turns you into a passable melee.

[Ithrani]

First Tenser's is just fine, it is not meant for casters to use often. Actually it has become more of a special build spell in PnP where you buff to the gills and turn into a tank. Plenty of feats, prestige classes, and special armor properties allow a wizard to become a much more effective melee character.

DP clickes do not need to be nerfed because they have their limitations. They have a caster level and only work for that long which is fairly short. Wondrous magic items can have any effect you want at the caster level you want so whats the problem? You MT I am surprised are arguing against DP clickies as they seem to follow pnp rules just fine. Yes you don't have to allow players to create their own magic items you your PnP campaign but the variant rule is the DMG at the bottom of 214. But Turbine choses to allow magic items that would be similar to those created by players if that variant is in effect.

As for their value, a DP clickie wondrous item with 3 charges per day at 7th caster level activated by command word would cost about 30k GP or so and the rules are simple to create them. It follows the same rules as creating a boot of teleportation and only potions cannot carry "personal" spells.

DP is fine this game is overpowered anyway so who cares about balance. Rogues having the same BAB for under a minute still does not make them a better tank and if someone puts the time effort and backpack space into being non-melee class tank like a bard or a rogue or wizard and can do as good if not better a job then a straight fighter, more power to them. They earned it, this thread started with an invalid point and escalated into a debate over rules that are very fluid.

[bobbryan2]

First Tenser's is just fine, it is not meant for casters to use often. Actually it has become more of a special build spell in PnP where you buff to the gills and turn into a tank. Plenty of feats, prestige classes, and special armor properties allow a wizard to become a much more effective melee character.

DP clickes do not need to be nerfed because they have their limitations. They have a caster level and only work for that long which is fairly short. Wondrous magic items can have any effect you want at the caster level you want so whats the problem? You MT I am surprised are arguing against DP clickies as they seem to follow pnp rules just fine. Yes you don't have to allow players to create their own magic items you your PnP campaign but the variant rule is the DMG at the bottom of 214. But Turbine choses to allow magic items that would be similar to those created by players if that variant is in effect.

As for their value, a DP clickie wondrous item with 3 charges per day at 7th caster level activated by command word would cost about 30k GP or so and the rules are simple to create them. It follows the same rules as creating a boot of teleportation and only potions cannot carry "personal" spells.

DP is fine this game is overpowered anyway so who cares about balance. Rogues having the same BAB for under a minute still does not make them a better tank and if someone puts the time effort and backpack space into being non-melee class tank like a bard or a rogue or wizard and can do as good if not better a job then a straight fighter, more power to them. They earned it, this thread started with an invalid point and escalated into a debate over rules that are very fluid.

I actually agree with most of that... except for Tenser's being fine. You say DP isn't overpowered... but somehow Tensers (which is far worse) is fine?

[MysticTheurge]

I've always argued against DDO's clicky system.

Yes, there are some clickies in D&D, but it's an entirely different bucket of worms in DDO where you have unlimited access to treasure and can swap items out in less than a second.

[Elthbert]

Those are not advice- those are rules. They are also rules that do not allow for any item not already listed in the book.

See this sentence, which you pasted yourself: "Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions. These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created."

You MUST meet the prerequisites in the description to create an item. If an item HAS NO description, you cannot meet the prerquisites, and you CANNOT create it.
That meaning is unambiguous. If the DM decides to allow players to submit new descriptions for magic items which their characters can later create, that's someplace where she must use good judgement. And that's also not just advice- the requirement to carefully judge each new item is a rule too. It's on page 282: "These two formulas aren't enough to truly gauge the exact difference between two very dissimilar items. Each of the magic items presented here was examined and modified based on its actual worth. The formulas only provide a starting point. ... Use good sense when assigning prices."

Oh please that is absolutely absurd, that means exactly what it says, all items have prerequisites in their discriptions and one must meet them to make the item, it certianly does not say that no item without a discription can not be made, infact it gives one a detailed process on how to make unlisted items.
The very fact that it tells you that one must use good judgement in allowing magical items to be made indicates that indeed that makeing new ones is part of the Core game.

Oh and by the way, you were the one who siad they were advice perhaps you should choose your words more carefully.

[Elthbert]

Um, the level cap isn't 14, it's 16.

The level cap has been 16 for too short a time to make any real conclusions regarding it. The fact that people seem to think arcane casters have been made vastly more powerful by the inclusion of those 2 levels is meaningless, in 3 or 4 months one might have and arguement, but not less than a month after the cap raise.

[Elthbert]

I've always argued against DDO's clicky system.

Yes, there are some clickies in D&D, but it's an entirely different bucket of worms in DDO where you have unlimited access to treasure and can swap items out in less than a second.

Agreed. it is the unlimited treasure and swaping speed that really make it broken, in PNP one has to make decisions about magical items, particulalry those that have to be custom made, in DDO you do not, not really, treasure flows in this game like water out os a broken dam.

[MysticTheurge]

Agreed. it is the unlimited treasure and swaping speed that really make it broken, in PNP one has to make decisions about magical items, particulalry those that have to be custom made, in DDO you do not, not really, treasure flows in this game like water out os a broken dam.

Also, for what it's worth, every "clicky" I can think of in D&D requires you to be wearing the item for the full duration of the effect it clicks to provide.

That is, you can't just hit your haste clicky or your shield clicky or your DP clicky and then go back to the item you really want to wear. In order to get the Haste effect from boots of speed or run up walls with your slippers of spider climbing, you have to be wearing them for as long as you want the effect.

[bobbryan2]

The level cap has been 16 for too short a time to make any real conclusions regarding it. The fact that people seem to think arcane casters have been made vastly more powerful by the inclusion of those 2 levels is meaningless, in 3 or 4 months one might have and arguement, but not less than a month after the cap raise.

Actually.... casters lost some of their power when the cap was raised to 16. They were the absolute Gods of Mod 4 and 5 (especially after the Mod 5 metamagic changes).

And I would say you can make plenty of reasonable assumptions of the balance of power after a month of new content. Already you can see that melees are handy to have. Casters aren't even all that useful in Shroud... apart from casting dancing sphere and cloudkill with the occasional solid fog.

But I look back to one Crucible run I did. Was in a PUG with a party of 6. Crucible on elite. My sorc actually got every single kill in the quest. It was kinda fun. Granted the party helped me out by actuallly staying in one group and not getting lost... but still.

[Elthbert]

Actually.... casters lost some of their power when the cap was raised to 16. They were the absolute Gods of Mod 4 and 5 (especially after the Mod 5 metamagic changes).

And I would say you can make plenty of reasonable assumptions of the balance of power after a month of new content. Already you can see that melees are handy to have. Casters aren't even all that useful in Shroud... apart from casting dancing sphere and cloudkill with the occasional solid fog.

But I look back to one Crucible run I did. Was in a PUG with a party of 6. Crucible on elite. My sorc actually got every single kill in the quest. It was kinda fun. Granted the party helped me out by actuallly staying in one group and not getting lost... but still.

Well I agree the metamagic change increased the power of spell casters conciderably, but I think it simply brought them up to the power of the Melee classes agian the sorcerers massive level of spell points does help them out in th epower department when compared to wizards.

[Angelus_dead]

Oh please that is absolutely absurd, that means exactly what it says

It is not absurd, but you are correct: It means exactly what it says. Apparently you cannot tell what it says, even though it is spelled out even more explicitly in places like the magic item compendium.

[Elthbert]

It is not absurd, but you are correct: It means exactly what it says. Apparently you cannot tell what it says, even though it is spelled out even more explicitly in places like the magic item compendium.

The Magic Item compendium? That is your defense for staying with in the rules?
The Magic Item Compendium is an optional book with optional rules, it is not Core at all. THe DMG does not support your position at all.

"Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions. These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created."
Does not mean only listed items can be created. That is simply NOT how English works all it means is what it says, for a listed item to be made it's prerequisites must be met. You have a faulty reasoning here. All monkeys are primates that does not mean all primates are monkeys, similarly that all listed items can only be made if there prerequsites are met does not mean that only things with listed prerequisites can be made. That is simply not the meanign or even a reasonable implication of those words.