Tenser's Transformation Not Powerful Enough

[DSL]

There are multiple ways DP clickies could be nerfed:
1. Delete them completely
2. Restrict them to providing BAB only up to caster level
3. Restrict them to only adding +1 BAB per 4 target HD, which is enough to bring a cleric to 1:1 BAB
4. Restrict them to only adding +1 BAB per 4 caster levels, enough to bring a cleric to 1:1 BAB

Any of those could work. I picked #3 because it would be the least nerf to other characters who may have come to enjoy DP clickies. Nerf #3 really only hurts characters with 1:2 BAB, who are the ones with Tenser's Transformation spells anyhow.

True enough, but at this point any nerfing would trigger a lot of complaints, so I don't think any of these are really viable.

Actually the wizard's Shapechange or Polymorph spells are better.

Shapechange is of course among the most powerful spells in the game, but at this point most spellcasters are better served relying upon spells than trying to outmelee the fighters. Polymorph is certainly very effective and versatile, but the Divine Power/Riteous Might combo is impressive considering how easy it is to use. Still, the assorted shapechanging spells all allow for some extreme benefits, and arguably abuse. Even Alter Self can allow a 3rd level caster to walk around with a +6 natural armor bonus (Troglodyte form), which can easily become unbalancing. I suppose that my point was that any cleric can very readily become a devastating melee'er, while a wizard has to plan and get creative to do so.

[MysticTheurge]

Any application of Divine Power to a magic item would be a house rule, and it would make eminent sense for the DM to take some of the assumptions inherent in a cleric spell (such as the caster already having 3:4 BAB to start with) and making them explicit to the magic item.

Um... Right. Which is why I wrote that second sentence there.

I just wanted to make it clear that even if one thinks that's "how DP clickies should work" it can't be said that's how they should work because that's how the spell works. (Which the quoted statement could be misinterpreted to be saying.)

[DSL]

If you read it more carefully, you'll see there is no rule allowing any magic item not already listed in the DMG (or other sourcebook) to be created.

There are some guidelines to help the Dungeon Master appropriately house-rule the cost of homebrewed items, but there is not actually a "rule" allowing some magic item to be created by plugging the the spell level and daily charges into some formula. Everything related to that is advice only, and it spells out right there that the ultimate judgement must be made by the DM looking at how valuable the item is to characters.

I would differ with you on this. While it's clear that DM's should consider any proposed item rather than simply checking the tables and allowing anything that seems to fit, there is a strong tone suggesting that DMs and players should be at least somewhat creative. The opening paragraph of the Wondrous item section begins:

"Wondrous items can be configured to do just about anything, from create a breeze to improve ability scores. Standard wondrous items are described below."

To me, this indicates that they expect people to come up with their own ideas, though an extensive list of pre-made examples are provided (much as the DMG list of potions is far from the complete list of potions that a brewer can create).

Once again, they don't intend for DMs to blindly allow anything that fits into the formula guidelines, but the formula tables are there because it's expected that players will do so, and expected that DMs will allow it to some extent.

[MysticTheurge]

To me, this indicates that they expect people to come up with their own ideas

Yes, but his point is that once you do that, you're already making up the rules.

[DSL]

Yes, but his point is that once you do that, you're already making up the rules.

Making up the rules? Not at all. Whether or not the item creation formulas are supposed to be strictly optional rules, the rules are there, and so it is a stretch to consider them "house rules". Now, I'm not saying that a DM should freely and automatically allow a Helm or Belt that the wearer can activate for a Divine Power spell 3 times/day simply because the formula exists, but the wondrous item creation rules leave the door open to a lot of possibilities that aren't included on the list of "standard wondrous items". After all, most of the craft item feats clearly allow for creating items that aren't listed on the DMG tables, so why not wondrous items?

[Alavatar]

There are some guidelines to help the Dungeon Master appropriately house-rule the cost of homebrewed items, but there is not actually a "rule" allowing some magic item to be created by plugging the the spell level and daily charges into some formula. Everything related to that is advice only, and it spells out right there that the ultimate judgement must be made by the DM looking at how valuable the item is to characters.

Tonight I will check my DMG because I am fairly certain that there are rules that allow for the creation of custom magic items.

[MysticTheurge]

Making up the rules? Not at all.

Well, yes you are, in the sense that everything is, at that point, a judgment call.

You're deciding whether a non-standard magic item is acceptable or not. And to that extent, you're making up the rules.

[BlueLightBandit]

My rogue loves his Tenser's scrolls.

I have nothing else to add.

[bobbryan2]

My rogue loves his Tenser's scrolls.

I have nothing else to add.

Why wouldn't you just use free Divine Power clickies?

[bobbryan2]

Here's my take.

I can certainly empathize with those that do not like the current incarnation of divine power clickies. It's probably their rampant abundance that so seriously hurt the Tenser's spell.

But I'd like to come at it from another angle.

Are the divine power clickies overpowered in and of themselves? Compared to TT scrolls/spell, then absolutely. Compared to barbarian or ranger melee combat? Not at all. DDO is a world where DPS is actualy the key to taking down several big bosses. I'd take a barbarian or ranger over a paladin any day of the week up against the pit fiend. Sure the paladin has a few LOH, and might survive a bit longer without a cleric backing them up... but the paladin will end up taking more resources in the long run.

Now put in a strength based caster. They're no where near the DPS of a barbarian in that situation. The way I see it... those divine power clickies bring melee casters up to about the level of where they should be in PnP.

None of this is overly useful.. except to point out.... I can only see good that can result from Tenser's getting an upgrade without nerfing DP clickies. Simply making Tenser's prefferable in some situations would do it. There would be clearcut reasons to use a DP clickie or to use a Tenser's scroll if Tenser's more closely followed the Bladesworn Transformation.

That's just my take and point of view on it.

I think any change that would bring other classes more to the front line capacity would be a good thing.

[DSL]

Well, yes you are, in the sense that everything is, at that point, a judgment call.

You're deciding whether a non-standard magic item is acceptable or not. And to that extent, you're making up the rules.

It's really more like deciding what rules to apply. It's more akin to deciding whether to allow some prestige class from a supplement than introducing some new home-brewed rule.

[Alavatar]

So, here is what I found:

On page 282 of the DMG begins the section on Creating Magic Items. From page 282 to page 288 there are detailed instructions for the construction of magic items. No where in the section does it state or imply that custom magic items are at the DM's discretion. AND, as far as I am concerned, nearly everything in the game is at the DM's discretion. In fact, no where in Chapter 7 of the DMG does it say that the creation of magic items, custom or otherwise, is optional/house rule/whatever.

On page 284 is table 7-32 and on 285 is table 7-33. Table 7-33 details what effects you can place on a custom item, the base cost of the enchantment, and some modifiers. Table 7-32 details the cost of the imbued item if it duplicates a spell that requires a costly component or XP.

So, following those two tables, a Divine Power 3/day pair of bracers would be:

Use-activated
Spell level x caster level x 2000 gold

Charges per day
Divide by (5 divided by charges per day)

(4 x 7 x 2000)/(5/3) or 33600 gold and 1344 XP

No where in the entire section does it say this is not possible. It's just that the examples given are all magic items listed in the chapter. With these two tables it allows for players and DMs to be more creative within the confines of the rules. No rule was broken, bent, or bypassed in the creation of this DP 3/day item.

[Elthbert]

And command word magic items are not how Divine Power can be cast.

Any application of Divine Power to a magic item would be a house rule, and it would make eminent sense for the DM to take some of the assumptions inherent in a cleric spell (such as the caster already having 3:4 BAB to start with) and making them explicit to the magic item.

Placing DP on a clicky is already inventing new rules.

And why not? I figure it as a wonderous item with a base value of 50400gp, Why exactly can DP not be put into an item, I don't notice any such restriction in the spell discription. But Here is the entry from the SRD maybe I am missing something...

Divine Power
Evocation
Level: Clr 4, War 4
Components: V, S, DF
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: 1 round/level
Calling upon the divine power of your patron, you imbue yourself with strength and skill in combat. Your base attack bonus becomes equal to your character level (which may give you additional attacks), you gain a +6 enhancement bonus to Strength, and you gain 1 temporary hit point per caster level.

Please tell me why exactly one would not be able to make a Command word activated Item using it?

[Pellegro]

[Elthbert]

If you read it more carefully, you'll see there is no rule allowing any magic item not already listed in the DMG (or other sourcebook) to be created.

There are some guidelines to help the Dungeon Master appropriately house-rule the cost of homebrewed items, but there is not actually a "rule" allowing some magic item to be created by plugging the the spell level and daily charges into some formula. Everything related to that is advice only, and it spells out right there that the ultimate judgement must be made by the DM looking at how valuable the item is to characters.

I STRONGLY disagree with this, the Item creation rules are Core, and are NOT simply advice, like everything else they are subject to Rule 0 and I as a DM Rule 0 them quite often ( for example, there are no unlimited use command word wonderous items.) but that is not the rules as written.

Agian from the SRD:

CREATING MAGIC ITEMS
To create magic items, spellcasters use special feats. They invest time, money, and their own personal energy (in the form of experience points) in an item’s creation.
Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions. These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item’s creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed).
While item creation costs are handled in detail below, note that normally the two primary factors are the caster level of the creator and the level of the spell or spells put into the item. A creator can create an item at a lower caster level than her own, but never lower than the minimum level needed to cast the needed spell. Using metamagic feats, a caster can place spells in items at a higher level than normal.
Magic supplies for items are always half of the base price in gp and 1/25 of the base price in XP. For many items, the market price equals the base price.
Armor, shields, weapons, and items with a value independent of their magically enhanced properties add their item cost to the market price. The item cost does not influence the base price (which determines the cost of magic supplies and the experience point cost), but it does increase the final market price.
In addition, some items cast or replicate spells with costly material components or with XP components. For these items, the market price equals the base price plus an extra price for the spell component costs. Each XP in the component costs adds 5 gp to the market price. The cost to create these items is the magic supplies cost and the base XP cost (both determined by the base price) plus the costs for the components. Descriptions of these items include an entry that gives the total cost of creating the item.
The creator also needs a fairly quiet, comfortable, and well-lit place in which to work. Any place suitable for preparing spells is suitable for making items. Creating an item requires one day per 1,000 gp in the item’s base price, with a minimum of at least one day. Potions are an exception to this rule; they always take just one day to brew. The character must spend the gold and XP at the beginning of the construction process.
The caster works for 8 hours each day. He cannot rush the process by working longer each day. But the days need not be consecutive, and the caster can use the rest of his time as he sees fit.
A character can work on only one item at a time. If a character starts work on a new item, all materials used and XP spent on the under-construction item are wasted.
The secrets of creating artifacts are long lost.

Please show me where anything is even implied that these are not Rules, but simply advise?

Just because an item is not explicitly listed does not mean that it's creation isa house rule, on the contrary forbiddiance would be more akin to a house rule (not that I find that a problem, I forbid items all the time).

[Elthbert]

Yes, but his point is that once you do that, you're already making up the rules.

Ah but his point is wrong, you are only making up rules when you disallow an item, not when you allow it to be made by the charts.

[Elthbert]

I thik the major problem here is the fact that clerics are simply the most powerful class in the game, and always have been. Divine power is of very dubious balance in a table top game and it's inclusion in DDO was probably a mistake, but you know, I am not a big fan of mummies with 1200 hp either, so it is probably in line with DDO's power level. Tensers is not, because it is a rather weak spell in it's current incarnation and so it transfers poorly to DDO where the power level is extremly high.

[captain1z]

The only casters that would use this spell are the ones who are built with this spell in mind.

If as a caster your AC stands at 10 and you have 90hps........... then you did not build your caster with this spell in mind.

Much like the proper use of fireball and firewall, you may be weilding great power to the ends of getting yourself killed.

Crowd Control is great if you are speced for it
lightning and Acid is great if you are speced for it

If your 20 constitution wizard packs an extra mitheral shirt and a sword of shadows in his backpack before a quest............ then tensers may be the spell for you.

All others need not apply.


Clerics and paladins wear heavy armor and are intended to see front line action every now and then....... divine power aids them to this end.

Shield and MM clickies can be used by anyone as can DP clickies

[bobbryan2]

The only casters that would use this spell are the ones who are built with this spell in mind.

If as a caster your AC stands at 10 and you have 90hps........... then you did not build your caster with this spell in mind.

Much like the proper use of fireball and firewall, you may be weilding great power to the ends of getting yourself killed.

Crowd Control is great if you are speced for it
lightning and Acid is great if you are speced for it

If your 20 constitution wizard packs an extra mitheral shirt and a sword of shadows in his backpack before a quest............ then tensers may be the spell for you.

All others need not apply.


Clerics and paladins wear heavy armor and are intended to see front line action every now and then....... divine power aids them to this end.

Shield and MM clickies can be used by anyone as can DP clickies

Well, most casters built for Tensers would probably rely on Stoneskin and Displacement rather than actually invest in AC.

[Elthbert]

Well, most casters built for Tensers would probably rely on Stoneskin and Displacement rather than actually invest in AC.

AC is virtually useless in higherlevel content. My caster runs with a AC in the 30's and that is only marginally better than 10 in the world of DDO, so I would agree, stone skin and displacement are good, still when using tensers I normally wear some +5 full plate just for some added protection.