Tenser's Transformation Not Powerful Enough

[bobbryan2]

Ok, when Tenser's Transformation was first slated to be released, I had some of these concerns. I ended up trying it out and seeing if it was going to be worth the investment. But Tenser's just doesn't translate from pnp nearly well enough.

Furthermore, you (Devs) KNOW it doesn't translate well, because anytime you make a Tenser-like ability, you make it useful.

Let's compare some spells and spell-like abilities.

Divine Power - Lvl 4 spell - +6 enhancement bonus to STR - Fighter BAB progression - Retain spell-casting ability.

This is such a great spell, that all classes use it via clickies. Retaining spell-casting abilities while becoming a Fighter with a +6 str item is great.

Tenser's Transformation - Lvl 6 spell - +4 enhancement bonus to STR, CON, DEX - Fighter BAB progression - Lose spell-casting ability - +5 competance bonus to Fort Saves - +4 natural bonus to AC.

Wow, where do I start. The only things good about this spell is the Fighter BAB progression and the +5 compentence to Fort Saves. +4 enhancement bonus to the stats is likely only seen in DEX... and DEX just doesn't help 95% of casters in DDO. The Natural AC bonus doesn't help for the exact same reasons. By the time a caster gets to 12-13 to use this spell... they should already be wearing +5's if not +6's. On top of that... you lose the ability to cast spells while under the influence of this spell.

Ok... so maybe the devs just think TT is better than it is.

No...

Because then we look at Bladesworn Transformation. And everybody's input for what TT should be was put into BT. BT gives most of the same bonuses as TT, except it gives profane bonuses to STR and CON.

That's exactly what people said TT was going to need if people were going to use it. Why can't TT give profane bonuses the same as BT?

[Tenkari_Rozahas]

um, the natural armor part would stack with their robes or bracers of armor, becoes those are an AC bonus to Armor. so +4 AC isnt all that bad. and with the +4 to dex, your essentially getting +6 to AC. as far as i kno. the only NA thing in the game is Barkskin and the potions based on it.

As far as I know, there are not Natural armor items in the game aside founder items.

[bobbryan2]

um, the natural armor part would stack with their robes or bracers of armor, becoes those are an AC bonus to Armor. so +4 AC isnt all that bad. and with the +4 to dex, your essentially getting +6 to AC. as far as i kno. the only NA thing in the game is Barkskin and the potions based on it.

As far as I know, there are not Natural armor items in the game aside founder items.

Yes... but seeing as most casters I know have an AC of 10.. upping that to an AC of 16 is beyond trivial.

(Yes.. I know there are AC specced casters that can achieve a 42 or whatever... please don't respond saying that YOU have an AC.)

The point is that the offensive output is neither as powerful as BT or Divine Power. Both are lower level spell and spell-like abilities. TT should have, at the very least, the same offensive output as these lower level spells.

[MysticTheurge]

The bonus to Natural Armor from Tenser's should stack with the bonus from Barkskin.

Tenser's gives an actual Natural Armor bonus:

You gain a +4 enhancement bonus to Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution, a +4 natural armor bonus to AC, a +5 competence bonus on Fortitude saves, and proficiency with all simple and martial weapons. Your base attack bonus equals your character level (which may give you multiple attacks).

While Barkskin gives an enhancement bonus to natural armor

Barkskin toughens a creature’s skin. The effect grants a +2 enhancement bonus to the creature’s existing natural armor bonus. This enhancement bonus increases by 1 for every three caster levels above 3rd, to a maximum of +5 at caster level 12th.

Normally, we're all assumed to have a natural armor bonus of +0. But a caster with Tenser's up has a natural armor bonus of +4. The bonus from barkskin should stack with this.

Other than that, the spell is working properly.

[llevenbaxx]

TT also has some distinct advantages over BT. For one, its basically a once per shrine use as opposed to how many scrolls you are carrying, with the super long timer it has. Also you cant be healed by a conventional cleric, only repaired I believe, which severely limits the situations you can put it to use.

I would agree that TT's Natural armor bonus would be much better if it stacked with other natural bonuses but I dont really see them going back on that now. It would be helpful to many mages(like me) who put some work into getting their AC into the mid 40s, wouldnt mind seeing that at all.

[Angelus_dead]

Ok, when Tenser's Transformation was first slated to be released, I had some of these concerns. I ended up trying it out and seeing if it was going to be worth the investment. But Tenser's just doesn't translate from pnp nearly well enough.

In reality, Tenser's Transformation was implemented very accurately: barely any PnP caster ever uses Tenser's, and the same is true in DDO.

I would prefer if that were changed so that Tenser's could occasionally be useful. There are two steps to fixing it:

1. Allow Tenser's Transformation to be dismissed at any time. Since DDO does not have a generic way to dismiss spells, you should be able to cancel Tenser's anytime simply by attempting to cast some other spell. Until this fix is added, a mage casting Tenser's may as well send a message to the party: "Hey guys, I won't contribute to my main role for 3:35, good luck without a caster!"

2. Nerf Divine Power clickies, which are not an allowed magic item in PnP D&D rules. The simplest way to nerf them would be to delete them completely, but I don't recommend that. Instead, change them so the BAB bonus can be only +1 per 4 HD of the user; that way, DP clickies will bring rogues and bards to 1:1 BAB, but wizards and sorcerers will only reach 3:4 BAB.

[Lucian_Navarro]

A very nice post and you are correct. When this spell came out it was very usefull for my type a build but later it was lacking as I began to compare it to other simular spells such as Divine Power which you gain partial bonuses but retain the ability to cast spells.

I dont want to present a negative without offering a positive so my suggestion would be to perhaps double the duration or add a Melee Alacrity bonus that stacks with Haste or maybe give the caster the ability to cast?

Yes, the last part might be a little too agressive and make it overpowering but the truth is, I dont cast it anymore and simply have collected 4 pairs of Madstone boots.

If you are wondering by now, my build is a Fighter (1) / Wizard (15) so she has weapon and armor proficiencies, stat bonuses of +6 so the inate improvements that come from Tensers is minimal as compared to Madstone due to the stacking ability of the Rage.

Just my two cents...

ZEIRA
"The Angry Blue Faerie"

[jkm]

The bonus to Natural Armor from Tenser's should stack with the bonus from Barkskin.

Tenser's gives an actual Natural Armor bonus:



While Barkskin gives an enhancement bonus to natural armor



Normally, we're all assumed to have a natural armor bonus of +0. But a caster with Tenser's up has a natural armor bonus of +4. The bonus from barkskin should stack with this.

Other than that, the spell is working properly.

which it doesn't as if you take a barkskin pot and then put on tensers your bark disappears. i use tensers a lot on my bards.

[tihocan]

The problem may be more that there exist divine power clickies in the first place. If they didn't exist, TT would be the primary choice for a caster who wants to fight. But using DP clickies is so much better that it makes TT worthless.
Now, I certainly don't want DP clickies to go away (I have a build who relies on them), so I wouldn't mind boosting TT a bit

[DSL]

Tenser's Transformation was always intended as a very situational spell, and wasn't meant to be a commonly-used staple of wizards everywhere. In PnP, most wizards never bother with it, considering it too limiting, and often too dangerous, to cast. However, for some it is very useful, and I have seen it used to great effect, but it's definitely not for everyone.

That said, I do believe that it should be beefed up somewhat for DDO, all things considered. Allowing the bonuses to scale by level would be a big benefit, and allowing it to be dismissed (much like barbarian rage) might be appropriate, considering how much can happen in DDO during the spell's duration. Making it too good, however, is a mistake, as it should remain a niche spell.

[Angelus_dead]

Making it too good, however, is a mistake, as it should remain a niche spell.

Yes, but the correct goal is to make Tenser's Transformation such that when a high-level wizard wants to buff himself and fight in melee, TT is his first choice. (Until we get some better spell, like Body of War)

Currently in order of preference your choices are:
1. Divine Power clicky
2. Madstone boots clicky
3. Tenser's Transformation scroll
4. Tenser's Transformation memorized spell

Why is the TT scroll prefered over the spell? 1. The spell uses Bull Potions as a special material component, meaning it takes as much room in your inventory as carrying scrolls. 2. The scrolls don't take slots out of your spell list. 3. The scrolls last shorter than if you had cast it yourself, reducing the chance you'll get in trouble because you can't cast a needed spell

That's why I suggest first nerfing DP so it doesn't raise wizards to BAB 16, and second improving Tenser's Transformation so it doesn't block spellcasting. Casting a spell should dismiss Tenser's Transformation, which achieves the goal of preventing a wizard from using TT for defense while casting spells at the same time, but without making TT into a self-imposed death trap.

[Lucian_Navarro]

The last post nailed it perfectly. The order of use and desire is exactly that.
If they could change just one thing about TT and allow it to be dismissed manually or nulled when a spell is cast like Combat Expertise. I would add it back into my spell slot as I could get a longer duration that way over a scroll. (but carry scrolls when either mana is gone or I swap a spell)

Hey Dev's.... "make it so"

[DSL]

Yes, but the correct goal is to make Tenser's Transformation such that when a high-level wizard wants to buff himself and fight in melee, TT is his first choice. (Until we get some better spell, like Body of War)

Currently in order of preference your choices are:
1. Divine Power clicky
2. Madstone boots clicky
3. Tenser's Transformation scroll
4. Tenser's Transformation memorized spell

Why is the TT scroll prefered over the spell? 1. The spell uses Bull Potions as a special material component, meaning it takes as much room in your inventory as carrying scrolls. 2. The scrolls don't take slots out of your spell list. 3. The scrolls last shorter than if you had cast it yourself, reducing the chance you'll get in trouble because you can't cast a needed spell

That's why I suggest first nerfing DP so it doesn't raise wizards to BAB 16, and second improving Tenser's Transformation so it doesn't block spellcasting. Casting a spell should dismiss Tenser's Transformation, which achieves the goal of preventing a wizard from using TT for defense while casting spells at the same time, but without making TT into a self-imposed death trap.

The main limitation on DP clickies should be that the BAB caps at the spell's caster level (i.e. normally 7), making it distinctly less useful past level 9-10. Likewise, the number one change that TT needs is the ability to dismiss it.

But you are correct in that a wizard or sorcerer who wants to build around melee/tanking should be able to think of this as his best option. However, here DDO is following the PnP model, with little deviation, wherein clerics have the best self-buffs for melee. It has often been joked that, in PnP, with access to Divine Power and Riteous Might, clerics make the best fighters. Ultimately, I think the spell was added to DDO for flavour as much as with the expectation of it being regularly used, but I do think that this is an example of how sticking too closely to PnP rules is a bad thing.

[Angelus_dead]

The main limitation on DP clickies should be that the BAB caps at the spell's caster level (i.e. normally 7), making it distinctly less useful past level 9-10.

There are multiple ways DP clickies could be nerfed:
1. Delete them completely
2. Restrict them to providing BAB only up to caster level
3. Restrict them to only adding +1 BAB per 4 target HD, which is enough to bring a cleric to 1:1 BAB
4. Restrict them to only adding +1 BAB per 4 caster levels, enough to bring a cleric to 1:1 BAB

Any of those could work. I picked #3 because it would be the least nerf to other characters who may have come to enjoy DP clickies. Nerf #3 really only hurts characters with 1:2 BAB, who are the ones with Tenser's Transformation spells anyhow.

However, here DDO is following the PnP model, with little deviation, wherein clerics have the best self-buffs for melee.

Actually the wizard's Shapechange or Polymorph spells are better.

[MysticTheurge]

The main limitation on DP clickies should be that the BAB caps at the spell's caster level (i.e. normally 7), making it distinctly less useful past level 9-10.

This is not the way Divine Power works. But as long as we're talking about making up rules for the clickies (such as capping the bonus at 1/4 your HD) this wouldn't be a bad thing to make up.

[Angelus_dead]

This is not the way Divine Power works.

And command word magic items are not how Divine Power can be cast.

Any application of Divine Power to a magic item would be a house rule, and it would make eminent sense for the DM to take some of the assumptions inherent in a cleric spell (such as the caster already having 3:4 BAB to start with) and making them explicit to the magic item.

Placing DP on a clicky is already inventing new rules.

[DSL]

As a slight digression, it is worth noting the circumstances of this spell's introduction into the game. Tenser was the character played by Gary Gygax's son, and it seems that the elder Mr. Gygax allowed his son to develop a few spells for hs own use, but with some severe limitations. Also amusing, is that the original spell description for Tenser's Floating Disk begins: "The wizard Tenser, always greedy for more treasure, devised this spell..."

[DSL]

This is not the way Divine Power works. But as long as we're talking about making up rules for the clickies (such as capping the bonus at 1/4 your HD) this wouldn't be a bad thing to make up.

I am aware that this is not how it works in DDO or in PnP, but I am suggesting that this would be a logical limitation, much in keeping with the spirit of DDO clickies (which generally are very useful at low-mid levels, then much less so past level 10, and almost never scale so well with the users level).

And command word magic items are not how Divine Power can be cast.

Any application of Divine Power to a magic item would be a house rule, and it would make eminent sense for the DM to take some of the assumptions inherent in a cleric spell (such as the caster already having 3:4 BAB to start with) and making them explicit to the magic item.

Placing DP on a clicky is already inventing new rules.

You mentioned this before, but I'm unclear as to why. I see no reason why a use-activated wondrous item with this spell could not be created under DMG rules, but perhaps I am missing something, since my PnP campaigns severly downplay item crafting.

[Angelus_dead]

You mentioned this before, but I'm unclear as to why. I see no reason why a use-activated wondrous item with this spell could not be created under DMG rules, but perhaps I am missing something, since my PnP campaigns severly downplay item crafting.

If you read it more carefully, you'll see there is no rule allowing any magic item not already listed in the DMG (or other sourcebook) to be created.

There are some guidelines to help the Dungeon Master appropriately house-rule the cost of homebrewed items, but there is not actually a "rule" allowing some magic item to be created by plugging the the spell level and daily charges into some formula. Everything related to that is advice only, and it spells out right there that the ultimate judgement must be made by the DM looking at how valuable the item is to characters.

[rimble]

Everything related to that is advice only, and it spells out right there that the ultimate judgement must be made by the DM looking at how valuable the item is to characters.

Well...we have a DM...or, well...a team of them at least...so...?