Finesse Effect Needs To Change

[Pellegro]

If you were to melee at the moment, what sort of weapons would you use? As a sorc, you will probably struggle to fins the STR to get a hit bit with finesse you will find it a bit easier. Sure, your not gonna be doing massive DPS but not to many sorcs (notice I said not many, not no sorcs) would in melee.

Thats very true! And I do melee with my sorc. But it seems to be more effective to use Tensers Scrolls and bursting picks.

[MysticTheurge]

Nah, missed his humor. Missed the italic tag there, and since he normally somehow tags his sarcasm.

And they tried to tell me there was no need for the "rolleyes" emoticon!

[Falco_Easts]

Thats very true! And I do melee with my sorc. But it seems to be more effective to use Tensers Scrolls and bursting picks.

I can see that working as well

[winsom]

Oh, and my spellsinger bard could benefit from one. My Dex is 2pts higher than my Str, not enough to bother with Weapon Finesse IMHO.

No you wouldn't benefit because the magical plus on the finesse weapon will be lower, due to the finesse property. You are better off wielding a +5 sword, and attacking with STR, than a +2 Finesse sword (if Finesse is +3 worth, I dont know) and attacking with DEX. See the problem?

The finesse weapon only has uses for character's with extremely uneven STR & DEX, like my wizard with STR 10 and DEX 22. But in actual gameplay the weapon is not useful because my wizard has better weapon-use options available to her. Why swing around a crappy damage weapon, when she can use a Divine Power clicky and attack with full Fighter BaB with a much better weapon? The Master's Touch spell (bards get it too) removes the -4 penalty associated with non-proficient weapons. I use this tactic to fight with a Vorpal great axe, if I want to kill something. There is no way my wizard's low damage numbers are going to a kill a 2000+ hit point monster any time soon, so I need to vorpal it, or paralyer-it then spend a minute chipping away at its HPs...

I think it would be possible (eventually?) to have a paralyzing weapon of finesse, or vorpal of finesse? Thats about the only uses I see for that weapon suffix. If Finesse is a weapon prefix (?) that would make it even less useful.

[Vormaerin]

But the "there are better things" options applies to all sorts of effects. It doesn't make those effects useless. It just means there are better effects. The property has an effect that provides a benefit. You may have a different weapon that provides you a benefit you prefer, but that's not a reason to take the other effect out of the game. If the Dex bonus stacks with other item Dex bonuses (which it might, though I doubt it) then its kind of useful in various ways. If it doesn't, it'll probably stay with a whole slew of effects that do something but not something good enough that you can't find a better item instead.

[BlueLightBandit]

You know, I may be the oddball, but my rogue used a couple o' finesse light maces before he was able to take the weapon finesse feat. Granted he took the repeater feat first, but just the same, by level 8 he hadn't taken the finesse feat because I had some ml6 and ml8 finesse weapons, so I could put that feat off until much later in the build.

So they DO have a purpose, albeit one that isn't going to benefit the majority of people.

But I'm in the category of people who are saying "if you don't like it, don't equip it" and "if it ain't broke, don't fix it."

[Karavek]

You make some good points, I have often found the Finnesse enhancment on weapons to be a huge joke. I think your ideas all show some potential, but here is an idea from an elf who always favors finnesse over strength and has felt there has beena huge imbalance agaisnt dextrous characters from the beginning of DDO. Largely the change of many spells from being touch attacks to saves, made heavy armor all the more favorable to many since dexterity still is useless when held and the like. Also due to the need for highly specialized weapons for dealing comparative dmg our gold is cosntantly being drained in bid wars for every dsirupting ,smiting,and banishing short sword, dagger, and rapier above most others. Not to mention bane weapons for constructs and undead. This brings up to my mind the sunblade and how much we who favor dex crave one to grant us truly respectable damage to evil and especially undead.

So my idea is make the Finnesse enchantment be something like how a sunblade works. make weapons with it act as short swords yet keep thier damage and type. This would mean if you did find a finnesse bastard sword, khopesh, or even dwarven axe, a dextrous halfling or elf would be able to fully enjoy it, and if it had a nice secondary effect like pure good, or a bane it would make it very comparable to the far to rare sunblade, without being in anyways truly overpowering as those who go high dex and int( as most rogues are practically forced to do to be truly reliable trappist in the hardest quest) for thier builds would finnaly have a hope to finding some practical weapons for a lower price( one they have been found often eough to become standard fare anyways)

[DNDJESS]

I think the problem here is that I started my original post by stating that the finesse effect was useless. Then, instead of reading the entire post and debating the merits of the ideas posted, people who used the finesse effect stopped reading to try and explain why they think they're usable. This line of thinking is, and always will be, counter-productive.

I've re-worded some of the original ideas, and I'll re-post them now. For those who currently like the finesse effect, please discuss the merits of these ideas, and if you don't like them, explain how they'd negatively effect you or the game:

1. Add the finesse attack to weapons that normally aren't finessable, and allow any character to use the weapon as though they had the finesse feat.

2. For characters who already have the finesse feat, change the finesse effect so that it uses the player's dexterity bonus for damage instead of strength. This would be a big benefit for finesse-users who have higher dexterity than strength.

3. Add a to-hit and/or damage bonus for players who already have the finesse feat.

4. Add an increased attack speed to the weapon. This one would probably be the hardest to implement.

[Falco_Easts]

1. Add the finesse attack to weapons that normally aren't finessable, and allow any character to use the weapon as though they had the finesse feat.

The thought of being able to finesse a greataxe does send shivers down my spine, so probably why we shouldn't be able to. One handed weapons possibly.

2. For characters who already have the finesse feat, change the finesse effect so that it uses the player's dexterity bonus for damage instead of strength. This would be a big benefit for finesse-users who have higher dexterity than strength.

No need to change it. If they already hae finesse they are getting enough of a bonus

3. Add a to-hit and/or damage bonus for players who already have the finesse feat.

As above

4. Add an increased attack speed to the weapon. This one would probably be the hardest to implement.

I could see this as an option for finesse

[Andah]

This isn't about finessable weapons, this is about weapons with the 'Finesse' effect. Who exactly were these weapons intended to benefit? Since the effect is only found on weapons that are already finessable, they don't help people with the finesse feat. And people who don't have weapon finesse aren't going to use a lesser damage weapon, especially since the weapon will be weakened by having the finesse effect on it instead of some other more desirable effect.

I think changing the finesse effect to one of the suggestions below would be a huge improvement, and actually make the effect desirable by some players:

1. Remove the effect from light weapons and add it to weapons that normally aren't finessable. Then change the description and the effect itself so that it makes the weapon usable by players with the weapon finesse feat.

2. Change the finesse effect so that it uses the player's dexterity bonus for damage instead of strength. This would be a big benefit for finesse-users who have higher dexterity than strength.

3. Keep the effect as-is, but add a to-hit and/or damage bonus for players who already have the finesse feat.

4. Add an increased attack speed to the weapon. This one would probably be the hardest to implement.

I think #1 #2 or both 1 and 2 would be the best suggestions.

Making dexterity add to damage would be FAR too much from weapon finesse alone. At present it's easier (and more effective) to get a super-high dex rather than strength. I don't have a problem with them adding 'Improved Weapon Finesse' or something as a high-end feat that allows you to use the higher of your modifiers, Dex or Str to damage.