Familiars: What should they do?

[MysticTheurge]

You are aware that that is EXACTLY what the Summon Spells do.

No. In fact, it's not what summons do at all.

Summons allow you to create a monster that will fight for you, but they're insufficient to replace another actual party member, even a plain-vanilla fighter.

Charms are a bit more powerful, because of the relative power of NPCs, but they're still not going to replace another party member.

[Turial]

No. In fact, it's not what summons do at all.

Summons allow you to create a monster that will fight for you, but they're insufficient to replace another actual party member, even a plain-vanilla fighter.

Charms are a bit more powerful, because of the relative power of NPCs, but they're still not going to replace another party member.

The list generally goes like so for combat:

(best....)
Party member (sometimes we can argue about this one)
Improved Animal companion
Pally Warhorse
Animal companion
Feat Augmented Summon
Summon
Improved familiar
Familiar
Rock (worst ....but oddly useful enough)


Charmed mobs would range anywhere from animal companion to improved animal companion based on buffs. Or possibly as far down as rock depending on if they would even fight for you in pnp.

[Dane_McArdy]

No. In fact, it's not what summons do at all.

Summons allow you to create a monster that will fight for you, but they're insufficient to replace another actual party member, even a plain-vanilla fighter.

Charms are a bit more powerful, because of the relative power of NPCs, but they're still not going to replace another party member.

Well depends on the mob you charm.

Charm an ogre in the vale, you got a good fighter, but one that eventually dies.

Charm an air elemental, and you have the best crowd control. It will keep ANY mob, spiders, scorpians you name it, on it's but, while you chop the snot out of it. Toss a stone skin on it, and buff it, and keep and eye on the charm, and you can clear the vale with a few of them and one or two other party members.

An air elemental is far better then an ogre, or rakshaka.

[MysticTheurge]

Well depends on the mob you charm.

But Charm has it's own drawbacks. Namely a duration and periodic saves. These things would not exist for familiars.

[Alavatar]

That would get tricky Hard enough sneaking in full plate, never mind that danged cow bell.

I got a fevah! And the only prescription ... is more cowbell!

[villainsimple]

No. In fact, it's not what summons do at all.

Summons allow you to create a monster that will fight for you, but they're insufficient to replace another actual party member, even a plain-vanilla fighter.

Charms are a bit more powerful, because of the relative power of NPCs, but they're still not going to replace another party member.

And in what universe do you think a familiar will be that much more powerful than a Summoned Monster?

Charms aren't just a little more powerful... they are MUCH more powerful than any familiar you're going to get.


Both of these effectively replace a party member by virtue of being a combatant. At least as much as any familiar would.



But your argument about "replacing" party members is silly in and of itself. I was hoping you'd get that by my relatively silly response.


First, these will be summoned creatures even if they happen to be familiars... they'll just be summoned creatures with a much lengthier duration and special abilities. That's it, that's all. Even with player intelligence behind them 9ala commands to pets) they still won't be secondary characters.

They won't have all that another player brings to the table. No where near. My Pixie Familiar isn't going to be wanding me in her spare time. Or handing me potions, or anything else.

Try harder MT.

[Sheezgame]

Maybe what they should do is put familiars in simply as a non-combat pet with no abilities, however give them one bag slot that you can use. This would be ideal for spell components etc.

This way they don't effect balance, you get your nice familiar to follow you around, and you get a slight benefit from it.

[villainsimple]

But Charm has it's own drawbacks. Namely a duration and periodic saves. These things would not exist for familiars.

This drawback is easily countered by the fact that you cn have fifteen of them.


So yeah... Charm is still more potent than any Familiar you're going to get.

[nbhs275]

actually in pnp cohorts are exceptionally powerful if your dm allows you to make them, as they are totally a support of your character. Your a squishy caster? your cohort is a dps free meatshield with feats designed to keep you on your feat.

As far as pally mounts go, halflings can get epic level mounts at about level 14. Nothing like 50 pounds of halfling on a huge celestial griffon. Though the dismount trick is kinda trickie when your flying...

[ViVid7th]

And in what universe do you think a familiar will be that much more powerful than a Summoned Monster?

Charms aren't just a little more powerful... they are MUCH more powerful than any familiar you're going to get.


Both of these effectively replace a party member by virtue of being a combatant. At least as much as any familiar would.



But your argument about "replacing" party members is silly in and of itself. I was hoping you'd get that by my relatively silly response.


First, these will be summoned creatures even if they happen to be familiars... they'll just be summoned creatures with a much lengthier duration and special abilities. That's it, that's all. Even with player intelligence behind them 9ala commands to pets) they still won't be secondary characters.

They won't have all that another player brings to the table. No where near. My Pixie Familiar isn't going to be wanding me in her spare time. Or handing me potions, or anything else.

Try harder MT.

Wait? Did you just say this?

And in what universe do you think a familiar will be that much more powerful than a Summoned Monster?

Right after saying this?

I can think of three purposes for a Familiar...

Combatant, Skill Monkey, Buffer/Debuffer.


Of all the Familiars I've ever had the one I liked the most was the Fairie (or was it Pixie) from Baldur's Gate 2.

The Pixie was a Rogue ina Box and made playing my Sorceror to level 28 and up a joy.

If Familiars became available perhaps we would be wise to limit them to solo quests... as Soloing can be VERY difficult for certain Casters at lower levels.

The important part is in red for you. You shouldn't argue with yourself.


Summons do not replace party members, nor do familiars in D&D. The SRD link is HERE if you want to read up on Familiars. Baldur's Gate series is an adaptation of D&D with it's own house rules to make it viable to play a multiplayer game solo. It shouldn't be used to suggest what should be done in PnP, let alone DDO.




In DDO, charmed monsters are very powerful, but are also an expense on resources. Due to their inflated hitpoints, and in some cases damage, they tend to be quite strong and still retain all the abilities of the mob that was charmed. Serious drawbacks though, it can fail. Casters are great to have charmed, free dps machines following you around, but they also have high will saves, so little chance of actually landing a charm on them. Everything gets a save, it costs you to cast it on each mob, and they will turn on you. When it happens one by one, and you still have 10 charms with you it's not a big deal. When those last 4-6 break at once, you tend to be in trouble. You can even get creamed just because, lets say you have 20 fire elementals charmed, 5 break free and start fireballing your charms, and your charms fireball back. Your army just got help up until you can kill them, and very second wasted with charms soloing is a second that can't be spared.

You mess up with a charmed mob army, you die. If even one powerful charm breaks, it can crush you even with your little army. That caster just made it's save and dropped CK, Chain Lightning and a Ball Lightning, assuming you are still standing you likely don't have much of an army left.

Summons are a different story. Aside from being useless due to only being able to summon one, lack of control over it, and the lack of damage, hitpoints and general scale of it, a summon is designed to supplement a group, not help form one. Even in PnP, summons aren't as strong as a PC and tend to be very limited to a narrow scope. The strength of the summon is supposed to be limited to the spell level used. Mind you, in PnP, summons can be very useful with the proper planning and power rating, normally not as strong as a charmed though.

Familiars are weaker than summons for a reason, they do not disappear after a set time and they have allot of use as tools to a caster. With the proper feats and buffs, a familiar can be a decent combatant at later levels, but I don't see that happening in DDO. The thing is that familiars scale with level, provide a free boost when with you dependent on the familiar, and even as a carrier for spells. Familiars normally don't see much combat due to that if a familiar dies, there are allot of penalties taken (including possible permanent stat damage).

What you are suggesting, if I'm reading this right, is familiars that can be either a combatant (Guessing you were thinking of a melee tank type), a skill monkey (you give a very strong impression of Disable Device, Spot, Search, Openlock and other 'rogue' skills) or a buffer (guess you are thinking about divine buffs here). So you are talking about giving casters a rogue, fighter, or bard in a can, for free. You are suggesting in something that you could command to keep that mob off of you, or disable a trap, or keep you fully buffed and debuff your enemies, then asking how would that be any more powerful than a summoned mob?

Sounds like you are suggesting a replacement for a character. Because if the summon doesn't have the hp/ac/dmg to keep the mob off you, it's not a combatant worth mentioning and has no effect. If the summon doesn't have the skills to find and disable that trap, it's not good enough. If the mobs keep resisting the debuffs, then what's the point?

Also, what happens if your familiar gets killed? What happens when you die? Does your familiar regen? Does it rest?

So your idea, heck no. You're putting words into MT's mouth by the way.

[ViVid7th]

actually in pnp cohorts are exceptionally powerful if your dm allows you to make them, as they are totally a support of your character. Your a squishy caster? your cohort is a dps free meatshield with feats designed to keep you on your feat.

As far as pally mounts go, halflings can get epic level mounts at about level 14. Nothing like 50 pounds of halfling on a huge celestial griffon. Though the dismount trick is kinda trickie when your flying...

A few things. You should be able to choose your type of cohort, but you shouldn't be making him. The cohort is a full fledged NPC once he joins, to be under the control of the DM and supposed to be created by the DM. You can suggest what feats your cohort takes after he joins and follows you around, or what direction his path should take, but he isn't a tool that gives you two actions a round.

Also it requires you to spend a feat for Leadership, and to devote yourself to upping your leadership score. There is a nice large section of the D.M.G. for DMs and the leadership feat.

And I don't remember anything about anyone getting anything of epic level before level 21 in 3.0

[MysticTheurge]

Right after saying this?

Yes, in fact, that's the sticking point right there.

In games like Baldur's Gate and Neverwinter Nights a wizards familiar can replace a party member. The pixie familiar is a rogue. It will open locks and disable traps and so on. I'm pretty sure she even gets sneak attacks. And that's at least partly why the OP seems to be suggesting a system which would allow familiars to replace party members.

That's an alright system in a single player game (though it's still a bit silly and unbalancing if you ask me) but it's a bad idea for a multiplayer game like D&D or DDO.

[Aeneas]

The list generally goes like so for combat:

(best....)
Party member (sometimes we can argue about this one)
Improved Animal companion
Pally Warhose
Animal companion
Feat Augmented Summon
Summon
Improved familiar
Familiar
Rock (worst ....but oddly useful enough)


Charmed mobs would range anywhere from animal companion to improved animal companion based on buffs. Or possibly as far down as rock depending on if they would even fight for you in pnp.

LOL, i love typos - sorry to be a spelling nazi but the mental image conjured by reading that was worth pointing out

[villainsimple]

Yes, in fact, that's the sticking point right there.

In games like Baldur's Gate and Neverwinter Nights a wizards familiar can replace a party member. The pixie familiar is a rogue. It will open locks and disable traps and so on. I'm pretty sure she even gets sneak attacks. And that's at least partly why the OP seems to be suggesting a system which would allow familiars to replace party members.

That's an alright system in a single player game (though it's still a bit silly and unbalancing if you ask me) but it's a bad idea for a multiplayer game like D&D or DDO.

And according to your definition simply possessing "skills" replaces party members. But apparently combat does not? having a walking meatshield, something to draw aggro or assist in a flank (all of which summoned/charmed monsters due despite their very minimal *snicker* drain on resources.

I wasn't arguing with myself as much as you'd like to construe it as the above poster would like to construe it.


You're flat out telling me that 8 minutes worth of a summoned monster ISN'T replacing a party member (summoned monster that can attack, draw aggro, use special abilities, soak damage, and everything else), but having a full time familiar (which Casters are supposed to have anyway) that can pick a lock IS replacing a party member.


Right. Do you need to win an argument THAT BAD?

[nbhs275]

A few things. You should be able to choose your type of cohort, but you shouldn't be making him. The cohort is a full fledged NPC once he joins, to be under the control of the DM and supposed to be created by the DM. You can suggest what feats your cohort takes after he joins and follows you around, or what direction his path should take, but he isn't a tool that gives you two actions a round.

Also it requires you to spend a feat for Leadership, and to devote yourself to upping your leadership score. There is a nice large section of the D.M.G. for DMs and the leadership feat.

And I don't remember anything about anyone getting anything of epic level before level 21 in 3.0

3.0 is super flawed, but even in 3.5 its simple. pally 5/beastmaster 2/ halfling outrider 10(with a specific feat) gives you a mount that has excessive hitdice. Even a simple wardog inflates to 22 HD, which means it has access to epic feats. which means your mount is probably going to be a better ally than the lvl 17 fighter your party has been dragging around.

as far as leadership goes, it doesnt really take much too boost your score, considering a moderate charisma and level will keep your cohort capped. Also, the description in the leadership feat doesnt state that the DM has control of it. Infact, it says that as long as a player isnt abusing the character(not using him to spring traps or just to buff him and then sit in camp) that the player can take control of the cohort. So yea, you the mighty sorcerer, can take leadership, put up want ads for a lvl XXX fighter/monk/spellthief with the x, y and z feats. I know if i was looking for my second in command i wouldnt let the random fighter be it. The balancing fact is that the corhot is always 2 levels behind the party, which slightly weakens his overall effect on combat.

[nbhs275]

And according to your definition simply possessing "skills" replaces party members. But apparently combat does not? having a walking meatshield, something to draw aggro or assist in a flank (all of which summoned/charmed monsters due despite their very minimal *snicker* drain on resources.

I wasn't arguing with myself as much as you'd like to construe it as the above poster would like to construe it.


You're flat out telling me that 8 minutes worth of a summoned monster ISN'T replacing a party member (summoned monster that can attack, draw aggro, use special abilities, soak damage, and everything else), but having a full time familiar (which Casters are supposed to have anyway) that can pick a lock IS replacing a party member.


Right. Do you need to win an argument THAT BAD?

Having an extra body in a fight is always good, thats why you will always take the extra person if you got space. But when you give an npc the ability to take over a role, then its replacing a party member. So if your little walking knock spell comes along with a caster, then the need to bring a rogue for that role is lesser, and hence replacing that members role.

[Kalari]

Well I know I got off track with the Baulders gate stuff, but to answer the topic question what should familiars do? Here is what I think if they were implemented in DDO they should do.

1. They should not function the way they do in Baldurs gate simply because like others said having a familiar with that kind of skill would be on par to replacing a party member of said skill. Why group with a rogue if you have a familiar that could pick locks. I could see if they had certain theiving skills ie sneak, pickpockets those are the kind of skills a familiar in DDO could have without imbalancing the game.

2. They should not be used for combat, even in the aformentioned game, I never ever used my familiar for any kind of combat skill, casting buffs would be a clever idea, but I would never risk a familiar in melee. A familiar is not like an animal companion that a ranger tends to get, they mostly serve their masters doing light skills. I shudder to think of any serious caster who would use a familiar in the way a summoned monster is utilized. Summoned monsters are brought about to do fighting as is charmed monsters with the penalty of having them turn on you. To me a familiar always seemed like a very sophisticated version of a pet. One that you cared for but actually appreciated and did light stuff in return.

I dont see how in any game anyone would want to utilize a familiar in melee or combat (save spying or tracking) in every game ive seen them or used them in be it stand alone rpg or pnp they have always been fragile. And if they die you take some serious damage because they are in a sense bonded to their masters. To me it wouldnt be worth risking a familiar the way you do a summoned monster. Summoned creatures are expendable.

Now Im not saying that the OP is trying to make familiars out to be replacement party members, I dont even know if I seen that in their post. I though they were asking what people thought they should/could do if implimented in this game. perhaps Ive gotten it wrong dont know.

But for me I definately would never want to see familiars in a role where they are doing the job a party member should be able to do with the exception of scouting or spying. There are enough compliants from people as it is about groups who opt not to take certain character classes because they arent needed. Having a familiar who could utilize such skills would only serve to hurt people who play classes like that worst IMO.

[Turial]

LOL, i love typos - sorry to be a spelling nazi but the mental image conjured by reading that was worth pointing out

Thanks for catching that. Yeah that would be an interesting thing to have around.

Pally: Don't worry guys the faithfull warhose will save us by drenching theose evil cat minions!

[MysticTheurge]

Thanks for catching that. Yeah that would be an interesting thing to have around.

Pally: Don't worry guys the faithfull warhose will save us by drenching theose evil cat minions!

Ha! I actually thought of the kind of hose that ladies wear on their legs, rather than the kind you use to water your garden.

And, in fact, it makes an even funnier mental image.

[Lo_Pan]

I saw a paladin wearing bright cyan warhose.....in a reaver raid.... BAD BAD BAD!