Funny Little Barb, revisited post Mod 6

[Shrazkil]

So awhile back i had an idea for a very different barbarian. With changes coming with mod 7, and arrival of mod 6, this build has reached an exciting peak, and has the potential to sneak its way (no pun intended) into the race for max DPS TWF.

I will Spec the build out to 20, as i do with all my builds.

Halfling 14 Barbarian/6 Rogue

Starting Stats
Str 12
Dex 20
Con 14
Int 12
Wis 8
Cha 8

Ending Stats
Str 20
Dex 44
Con 24
Int 13
Wis 14
Cha 14

457 Hit Points (unraged)

Stats are unraged, using +6 stat items, Exceptional dexterity 1/2/3 from greensteel, and +3 dex tome +1 Con int tome and +2 str tome.

Lvl progression:
1 Rogue
2-7 Barb
8 Rogue
9-16 Barb
17-20 Rogue

Feats:
1 TWF
3 Finesse
6 ITWF
9 IC: Piercing
12 GTWF
15 STWF
18 Toughness

Ending AC:
10 base
17 Dex
7 Armor (bracer)
5 Deflection
3 barkskin Potion
4 Insight (greensteel)
6 I.Uncanny dodge
3 dodge
-2 Rage
_______________________
53 AC Unbuffed (could throw on shield if needed for +7)

Buffed Ending AC:
10 base
17 Dex
7 Armor (bracer)
5 Deflection
5 barkskin
4 Insight (greensteel)
3 dodge
6 I.Uncanny dodge
2 recitation
4 Paladin Aura
2 Madstone boot effect
-2 Rage
_______________________
63 AC (could throw on shield if needed for +7)

OK, so what makes this build a contender for high Damage DPS ?
New enhancements and changes coming mod 7.
With halfling sneak attack enhancements and rogue sneak attack enhancements, coupled with way of the assasin, and haste boosts, you do some crazy sick damage with every swing, regardless of weapon (this is of course excluding things immune to backstab) With a treason and greensteel weapon (ideal recipes not found yet, like rapier or light pick) along with reduced threat from rogue enhancements, you have a great chance to backstab often. In addition, since there is no need for power attack, your to-hit stays very high.

I won't go into DPS weapon specifics, but merely the potential with backstab.

+8 Halfling enhancement, +6 rogue enhancement, +4 way of the assasin enhancement, +8 treason or B.S. 5 weapon = 26 bonus backstab damage before your 3d6 is thrown(for an average of 36.5 damage) .

To-Hit:
18 BAB
17 Dex bonus
5 weapon
4 greater heroism
1 insight
2 luck
-2 TWF
1 size
____________________

48 when not backstabbing/flanking
6 enhancements for sneak/flank
54 To-hit



Noteworthy extras
Though you have rogue levels, your not going to be trying to disable.
Can easily toss aside finesse at 18 , respec to combat expertise if you enjoy tanking even more.
This build has a very solid UMD skill, as well as your choice of usefull skills.
When not raged, stealth is a viable option if you go that route ( i have 56 hide/move silent)

[Shrazkil]

I am not sure of the total possible bonusus's from various items and effects to str/con. If anyone is more savvy to this info please post and i will add to final raged stats.

[Robeling]

IMO, dex is too high, str and con are too low. 44 end dex...why? I would drop my dex to the min possible to open the feats and abilities you want, drop the weapon finesse, and raise str and con. You want to be raged all the time, and with high str while raged you shouldn't have issues hitting things.

[Shrazkil]

IMO, dex is too high, str and con are too low. 44 end dex...why? I would drop my dex to the min possible to open the feats and abilities you want, drop the weapon finesse, and raise str and con. You want to be raged all the time, and with high str while raged you shouldn't have issues hitting things.

Have you seen my AC.... While raged. If i was going for pure DPS i would certainly agree. Fact is, this build can do comparable damage without the strength. Still having a massive HP pool, evasion, and incredible AC.

In fact on my personal build, i dont even bother spending enhancement points on power rage.

[Taerdra]

Been working on something along the same lines... roughly...

As someone else posted, you will never generate a lot of DPS in this build, STR is way too low, and Rge 6 doesn't really maximize all the bonuses out there between Mod7 updates and SAT though Assassin could be nice for sure.

In order for Halfling Barb too compete in anyway with the other TWF DPS builds is to combine (a) traditional high STR build and (b) SA bonuses for Halfling Guile with Rogue bonuses. And even then it is primarily larger DPS on a burst basis and difficult to calc what it is over time as you need to de-aggro consistently to get SA damage in the first place.

I personally would target 14/2 (which gets +d6+17 SA damage and 5% additional crit range) at the cap with eventually going 17/3 or 14/4/2F. You're trading 1 BAB and many other possibilities (2F for feats, more Barb for DR, etc.) to get an enhancement that can only be used a limited amount of times (if I read the WDA right) and requires a significant AP investment when you really don't have that enough points as it is (at least in my builds to lvl 16). Not trying to criticize the build as it is very creative, just saying it isn't what you advertised at the beginning of your post.

[Taerdra]

Have you seen my AC.... While raged. If i was going for pure DPS i would certainly agree. Fact is, this build can do comparable damage without the strength. Still having a massive HP pool, evasion, and incredible AC.

In fact on my personal build, i dont even bother spending enhancement points on power rage.

Again, not trying to be too critical, but your DPS is not comparable on this build, even in burst terms.

[Shrazkil]

Been working on something along the same lines... roughly...

As someone else posted, you will never generate a lot of DPS in this build, STR is way too low, and Rge 6 doesn't really maximize all the bonuses out there between Mod7 updates and SAT though Assassin could be nice for sure.

In order for Halfling Barb too compete in anyway with the other TWF DPS builds is to combine (a) traditional high STR build and (b) SA bonuses for Halfling Guile with Rogue bonuses. And even then it is primarily larger DPS on a burst basis and difficult to calc what it is over time as you need to de-aggro consistently to get SA damage in the first place.

I personally would target 14/2 (which gets +d6+17 SA damage and 5% additional crit range) at the cap with eventually going 17/3 or 14/4/2F. You're trading 1 BAB and many other possibilities (2F for feats, more Barb for DR, etc.) to get an enhancement that can only be used a limited amount of times (if I read the WDA right) and requires a significant AP investment when you really don't have that enough points as it is (at least in my builds to lvl 16). Not trying to criticize the build as it is very creative, just saying it isn't what you advertised at the beginning of your post.

Very hard to calculate for sure. In my tests with damage calculator it has been very close depending on whether baskstab is available ( i scaled to 60% backstab). I put my strength at 39 (which is 11 off of 50(-6 start - 5 levels)) Using 2 greansteel light picks , and backstabber gloves.

I surpassed previous numbers (not ill's) at around 40 AC.

My vision of the build is coupled with another high DPS tank, or even tanking for a pure rogue. As for way of the assasin the new +4 sneak attack damage is permanent, however, i thought about going 4 rogue/2fighter, instead of 6 rogue, so that is certainly an option.

Though i must say, sacrificing DR is the last thing on my mind, i somehow doubt with a proposed 63 AC ill be seeing little in the way of being hit, beyond criticals.

[Taerdra]

Good to know on the Assassin enhancement... still expensive to me, but I like all builds with new twists and such so if it works for you -- sweet. I like the balance in your build... question is whether it is necessary or worthwhile on an optimized Barb based build.

I think you're comparing apples to oranges when compared Illuminati or Shade's build. If your STR is 39, then with comparable equipment there's is at least 50+ (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=124065) plus PA, so I'm not sure your analysis is a true comparison as that puts you automatically at a 13-14 pt disadvantage on every main swing and 10-11 on every off-hand swing. But hey happy to be proven wrong... STR+PA+SA > low STR+SA.

The impact of SA damage is all in how often you can lose aggro or regen another SA situation (flanking, etc.). Your ideal party makes sense on that front for sure. It's just really hard to include SA damage in any DPS formula/calc due to how complicated the actual combat system is.

[tihocan]

Have you seen my AC.... While raged.

Factoring in Imp. Uncanny Dodge is misleading. You're also adding a chattering ring, right? Not the easiest item to find... Also the madstone boots don't give you any AC if you already have barkskin +5.
I'm willing to bet the investment in AC will be almost useless by level 20, you'll get hit just like everyone else, and you will be penalized by your low strength.

Finally, I don't see why you wouldn't want to disable stuff with 12 base int and 6 levels of rogue. It should be plenty to do the very large majority of traps in the game.

[Robeling]

Your potential AC is nice....but is it worth it? If you rarely get hit, have a good amount of hp, and can provide support damage, then it's a nice build. I like the concept, I just think you're not close to be high in DPS. You need sneak attack and rage to do decent damage. Plus, I don't think you're maximizing the barb aspect of the buid. Why go barb with a low str and con and no enhancements in raging? Short rages without max damage? At end content, where shrines a few and far between, you'll probably run out of rages. I don't see the point of over maxing dex. I would take some ability points and/or enhancements out of dex and spread the love around a bit so you get more out of your rages.

[Shrazkil]

Your potential AC is nice....but is it worth it? If you rarely get hit, have a good amount of hp, and can provide support damage, then it's a nice build. I like the concept, I just think you're not close to be high in DPS. You need sneak attack and rage to do decent damage. Plus, I don't think you're maximizing the barb aspect of the buid. Why go barb with a low str and con and no enhancements in raging? Short rages without max damage? At end content, where shrines a few and far between, you'll probably run out of rages. I don't see the point of over maxing dex. I would take some ability points and/or enhancements out of dex and spread the love around a bit so you get more out of your rages.

Going barbarian is purely to take advantage of crit range, and massive HP. My initail thought was to use w/p rapiers, or even weakening /enfeebling weapons. But with still a very potent strength , light picks along with backstab damage seem very viable.

Con should still end up very high. If i use shades numbers as a baseline of all the possible stackable increases, i should have around 44 CON.

[Shade]

The idea that you can attain "max dps" by mixing in a few rogue levels and ignoring strength entirely is laughable.

Dex based melee build is just a bad idea on a barbarian. You can hanve an endgame dex of 44 with all the gear you posted, or an endgame strength of well over 60 with the same or even less gear.

Also really don't get the point in planning ahead so far when the game WILL drastically change many things before that ever happens. I mean your also including a feat they might decide to just never release as it never existed in PnP (superior twf)

[Shrazkil]

The idea that you can attain "max dps" by mixing in a few rogue levels and ignoring strength entirely is laughable.

Dex based melee build is just a bad idea on a barbarian. You can hanve an endgame dex of 44 with all the gear you posted, or an endgame strength of well over 60 with the same or even less gear.

Also really don't get the point in planning ahead so far when the game WILL drastically change many things before that ever happens. I mean your also including a feat they might decide to just never release as it never existed in PnP (superior twf)

Well lets see.. Bonus damage from sneak attack 18 + 3d6 + (backstab item) ... Having 11 extra strength then a halfling build... 5-6 damage (10-20 depending on crit threat mutiplier) . Mathamatically what would you say is " entirely laughable" about that, plus do realize i said this build would be in the race for TWF DPS , not max DPS.

P.S. Did i miss something? i thought they added STWF already?

[sigtrent]

Here is the thing with backstabing...

It's hard to factor it into DPS caclulations. It is the best damage effect in the game, but you can't rely on it, in fact the more you get from it, the more likely it is to stop working :P

So wtih rouge DPS there is a balance to play against. Add to that the buisness of 14 barbarian levels to get a crit range shif of +2 which you are trading out agasint 7d6 sneak attack damage.

Lets say with your 26 (raged) str and a +5 item you are look at bonus damage of +13 main and +9 off hand, add in average damage of the weapon (rapier?) for 3.5 which gives you +16.5/+9.5 average for 13 base damage per swing. Your extra crit will happen on 10% of swings so the crit rage is granting you a whopping 1.3 damage per swing.

The 14 missing rogue levels would give you 21 average damage per swing (without further rogue enhancements) so if sneak attack is what you are about... you should take 14 rogue levels not 14 barbarian levels.

A classic TWF barbarian is looking more in the range of 5-10 average damage per swing due to crit rage because they have a higher multiplier running and and do much more base damage. That still isn't what a rogue can get wtih sneak attack, but again, sneak attack isn't all that reliable when you are the strongest DPS character in the room.

[Shade]

P.S. Did i miss something? i thought they added STWF already?

Nope. It was mentioned by codog a few times vaguely, but never added.

They haven't even stated any plans to ever add it either.