Melee capabale Sorc without sacrificing Cha or caster level?

[Gol]

I currently have a Warforged true Battlemage (28 buffed Str, 264 Con, 22 Int), but I want to roll something else up that's your more "typical" caster.

I'm looking to make a melee-capable Human sorc that doesn't lose any Charisma or caster levels. The advantage is partially a matter of leveling up. I HATE HATE HATE leveling squishy casters. I hope to take the level 1 spell that gives martial profs and self-healing via wand-whipping with UMD.

The problem is that from there, I'm not sure how to distrube stat points and what feats/spells to take. I don't need a full character planner export, just looking for suggestions on stat distrubution and feat/spell selection. Thanks in advance!

[Oreg]

Pure? or would you consider splashing?

[Gol]

Pure. If the mob dispells my melee proff buff I'd rather PK/Finger it or just let the tanks handle it.

[Oreg]

You lost me on that last comment. How important is melee to you? A pure sorcs BAB will be low enough that you wont hit much without melee levels. The only thing you could do is build a charm, hold, stone sorc and then use puncturing weapons (rapiers and shortswords) to "melee" things to death after you have them stoned.

If the goal is just to not have a squishy caster then just go pure sorc drow with max cha and con. With decent items you can be 2200 sp with over 240-250 hps and once stoneskinned, displaced and buffed you aren't so squishy.

[Aspenor]

If the goal is just to not have a squishy caster then just go pure sorc drow with max cha and con. With decent items you can be 2200 sp with over 240-250 hps and once stoneskinned, displaced and buffed you aren't so squishy.

I'd say that if the true goal is not to be SQUISHY, then don't go drow. Go human.

A 32 pt human sorc (which I know Gol can create 32's) can be given 18 charisma and 17 con at start, while keeping 10 int for 3 skill points per level (which is my preferred number of skill points, but if you can settle for less you can take a 16 con drow).

[Oreg]

I'd say that if the true goal is not to be SQUISHY, then don't go drow. Go human.

A 32 pt human sorc (which I know Gol can create 32's) can be given 18 charisma and 17 con at start, while keeping 10 int for 3 skill points per level (which is my preferred number of skill points, but if you can settle for less you can take a 16 con drow).

sure. his post title mentioned not losing cha though. either way works.

[Aspenor]

sure. his post title mentioned not losing cha though. either way works.

Well you don't necessarily "lose" charisma, unless you mean you want to have the highest possible charisma by going drow. Humans can technically attain nearly the equivalent charisma of a drow due to human adaptability and with a little twinkage and raiding.

[Oreg]

I will leave this thread in your more capable hands then.

[Aspenor]

I will leave this thread in your more capable hands then.

I never said I'm more capable I'm just discussing.

The thing about a "melee capable" sorc that doesn't give up any charisma is going to be that you will end up squishy if you actually put points in STR, I think you can agree with that.

We both agreed that the CON score is what matters as far as squishy sorcs go

[Gol]

Ok, I know my BAB will be lacking. Like I said, I have a true battlemage wizard already (14/1 currently) and I know how that works. Hitting stuff isn't a problem until I get PK/Finger, though.

Perhaps a hint at what I was expecting to see...

Str 16 (10) + 1 tome + 1 human + 6 item + 2 rage buff = 26
Dex 8 (0) = dump stat
Con 14 (6) + 6 item + 2 rage buff = 22
Int 8 (0) = dump stat
Wis 8 (0) = dump stat
Cha 18 (16) + 4 levels + 1 human + 3 sorc + 6 item + 2 favor tome = 34

8 int on a human gets me max UMD/Concentration (I know UMD is cross-class). The stats I could guess at. I could exchange the second human point between str and con and eat a con tome for a few more hit points later on.

Problem is, I don't know squat about Sorc feat or spell selection. I know I want Rage and the level 1 martial weapon buff (whatever that's called). Tenser's I will scroll whip situationally. I'd like to have Extend, but that's becoming optional with our higher caster levels these days.

[smithers]

You lost me on that last comment. How important is melee to you? A pure sorcs BAB will be low enough that you wont hit much without melee levels. The only thing you could do is build a charm, hold, stone sorc and then use puncturing weapons (rapiers and shortswords) to "melee" things to death after you have them stoned.

If the goal is just to not have a squishy caster then just go pure sorc drow with max cha and con. With decent items you can be 2200 sp with over 240-250 hps and once stoneskinned, displaced and buffed you aren't so squishy.

BAB not such an issue (below). You lost me on the suggestion that trading a caster level for 1/2 BAB and a few HP would be worth doing.

As for his goal, it's pretty clear in the OP he wants to do some fighting, not just be less squishy, which is far easier.

I've played with a couple different battle casters; here's a quick list of some of my favorite feats, gear, etc... to make it work. As you know, you won't ever be a melee DPS machine, but you can contribute a lot without spending any mana:

• A good AC is fully achievable if you want to invest in it. My lvl 14 drow used to run around with 42 AC back when that was quite respectable. He's a bit older now and stays away from the fighting. However, as soon as he dumped AC and put on blue robes I felt the difference though, and I didn't like it. Now he stays back and plays with repeaters. Anyways, not saying AC is worth the investment, but if you can swing it it will save your life a lot, regardless of how many people tell you it's a waste. Even with the buffs I don't think I'd enjoy playing a low AC battle wizard; just too stressful for the clerics. (Unless he was a self-healing WF)
  
• Precision - take it and leave it on. You don't need to do damage to kill - but you do need to hit.
  
• Weapon finesse - If you have any interest in AC then you need dex, which means you are gonna be a dex fighter; just not enough points to invest in any strength. With precision, finesse, and a good dex, you can fight all mobs in the game, including good debuffs on bosses to help out the damage dealers.
  
• +4 Keen puncturing rapier - my wizard's best weapon; got a ton of kills with this thing
  
• Destruction, cursespewing, strengthsapping - get them in combos if you can. Cursespewing puncturer is another to keep your eye out for. Rapiers of course, esp if you have the drow prof.
  
• Bloodstone - maybe your most important piece of gear. Possible to get by with the +4 goggles but I'd go for the extra 2, and at a lower level
  
• Heavy fort - goes without saying
  
• Fearsome whatever - should be considered for all quests not filled with undead (my wiz with Ac never used it actually, but all my other casters do)
  
• Divine power clickies - start collecting. Carry 15+ charges and fire it up before every significant encounter. Far better than tensers.
  
• For held mobs, put together a killer combo of unproficient weapons; I used dual +2 icy burst puncturing heavy picks - took me a long time to find the second, but this combo is instant death for anything held/stoned/insta-critted. Earlier had shocking burst bone breaking warhammers, which were also nice, since mobs would sometimes come out of hold, but with zero dex, which left them easy to finish off. Fun to play around with combos here, but picks rule for this job.
  
• Mass hold person - take it wherever it applies. Nothing was more fun than tearing through 4 or 5 held mobs with the picks
  
• Main thing for me playing battle wizard was always understanding aggro - being able to get in and out of the fight at the right time.
  
• +5 Mithril tower shield / madstone shield - When you do get aggro, if you have tanks near just go into block mode - you won't take much damage and your enemy will get flanked and probably killed. (a lil risky on elite quests, but you should get a sense of how much damage you can soak up - divine power helps here since it ups your BAB)

Anyways, have fun, that's the main thing. Try not to stress your clerics out too much - be generous to them if you are taking a lot of damage. Otherwise, don't bother trying to defend your build to the numerous players who are gonna give you a hard time. A lot of them don't know 1/2 as much as they think they do and it's better just to not get into these discussions, since being lectured by some tosser is enough to take the fun out of any PUG quest :P

[Gol]

Gol doesn't do Dex-based, and Gol doesn't do Drow.

How's this for a feat list?
Human Extend
1 Max
3 Empower
6 Toughness
9 Toughness
12 Focus: Necro
15 Greater Focus: Necro

[Angelus_dead]

I'm looking to make a melee-capable Human sorc that doesn't lose any Charisma or caster levels.

Regardless of what build you decide on, start collecting Divine Power clickies now. 5x uses on them, and preferably all the same slot (Bracers is generally the best slot, because it's probably where you'll have your strength item).

I am assuming that by 'melee capable' you mean not only able to attack monsters, but also to have meaningful AC. For that goal I suggest going Drow, not human. (Elf or even halfling would also work, but with a little different focus). Wizards normally do this a little better than sorcs, but I assume you already have a wizard and don't need another. If you did not want AC, then you'd dump dex and attack with str instead.

Drow gives you the best possible charisma, but also help you fight better by
* Free rapier proficiency
* +2 attack/damage enhancements with rapier (which is like +4 str)
* Elven Arcane Fluidity so you can cast spells wearing +5 mithral chainshirts.
Past very low levels, this drow battle-sorc normally uses low-aggro weapons like a wounding or puncturing rapier, and primarily uses it against enemies that have been webbed, feared, or danced. Following is a quick sample, which is excessively focuses on melee at the expense of other feats

Starting stats:
Str 10 Dex 14 Con 13 Int 10 Wis 8 Cha 19 (You could easily move points from cha to con)

Feat order:
1 Weapon Finesse
3 Maximize Spell
6 Extend Spell
9 Precision
12 Heighten Spell
15 Improved Critical Pierce (or Toughness, Spell Pene, or Spell Focus, or Force of Personality...)

Result
Wielding +5 rapier of puncturing and +5 mithral chainshirt.
AC: 10 + 9 armor + 6 dex + 5 prot + 2 chaosgarde + 3 bark + 1 haste = 36
Attack: 8 BAB + 6 dex + 2 drow melee + 5 weapon + 4 precision + 4 hero = 29 (Divine Power adds +8 for 50 sec)
Spell DC: 10 base + 8 heighten + 11 cha = 29 (thats with no tomes or napkin)

[Angelus_dead]

Gol doesn't do Dex-based, and Gol doesn't do Drow.

And human sorcs don't fight well (toughness doesn't change that... and toughness is usually a mistake unless you're using it to qualify for enhancements). An elf or even halfling is better.

What do you hope to be to achieve in melee at low, medium or high level? For example, I have a generic human sorc who can bring down a individual Flesh Golems in melee if needed, but absolutely none of the build was focused in that direction, aside from starting with 10 str instead of 8.

[MrCow]

Feat order:
15 Improved Critical Pierce (or Toughness, Spell Pene, or Spell Focus, or Force of Personality...)

Pure arcanes have a BAB of 7 when they reach level 15, which is too low for improved critical.

[Gol]

I'll post more when I get back from lunch. Drow is not an option, end of story not debatable. I'll reconsider Dex-based, though.

[Wizzly_Bear]

Gol doesn't do Dex-based, and Gol doesn't do Drow.

How's this for a feat list?
Human Extend
1 Max
3 Empower
6 Toughness
9 Toughness
12 Focus: Necro
15 Greater Focus: Necro

imo, multiple toughness is a waste, as is double focus, esp on a sorc who has so few feats to grab. enlarge and spell pens would be better imo, and quicken is never a bad idea on any1 who casts spells.

[Gol]

What do you hope to be to achieve in melee at low, medium or high level? For example, I have a generic human sorc who can bring down a individual Flesh Golems in melee if needed, but absolutely none of the build was focused in that direction, aside from starting with 10 str instead of 8.

In addition to standard Caster stuff...

Low Level: significant melee contribution for enhanced solo capability
Mid Level: situational melee contribution
High Level: little-to-no melee contribution but 220+ HP and UMD

[Gol]

imo, multiple toughness is a waste, as is double focus, esp on a sorc who has so few feats to grab. enlarge and spell pens would be better imo, and quicken is never a bad idea on any1 who casts spells.

Thank you, that's what I wanted to know. I've never played a "primary" caster and these are the things I don't know.

[Angelus_dead]

Low Level: significant melee contribution for enhanced solo capability
Mid Level: situational melee contribution
High Level: little-to-no melee contribution but 220+ HP and UMD

Well if your desired result is going to change so much over time, probably you should pick some melee feats at low level, and swap them out for metamagic later on.

For example, it will be a while before you have enough level 1 spell slots to blow one on Master's Touch. So why not take Exotic Proficiency Khopesh at level 1, and carry it along with a +1 Light Mithral Shield... use a Mage Armor wand too.