It's Time for Some Ranger Love!

[Turial]

Let's not pretend all Rangers are broken. Ranged combat is what's broken, no matter who has the Bow out.

Correct. Turbine has led us to believe that issues with ranged ROA is due to the physics engine of the game and the extra lag that following the physical pathing of the arrow to its target. Also in there is the issue that decent players with a bow can infinately kite mobs till they die.

If it was up to me ranged ROA would be equal to melee attack speed, for all classes and before applying any feats. The Rapid shot feat would allow for a player to make an extra attack during a sequence, thus raising the ROA by 1 shot for each sequence and applying a -2 attack penalty while it was active (rapid shot would have to be a toggle feat). Manyshot would be a toggle feat that allowed the ranger to make an attack that fires the correct number of arrows per BAB on each shot while applying the corresponding penalty to those shots, the kicker would be that it slows your ROA to 1 attack per sequence. Also composite bows should have the feat bow strength applied to them so that any user can apply their str to the damage portion of the attack. Bow Str should be left as a ranger feat to reflect the pnp theme of the ranged ranger.

Lets say for ease of number crunching that a player at BAB can get off 100 attacks in a minute through melee. This comes to 20 attack sequences of 5 attacks each. A player using ranged combat and no additional feats would also get 100 attacks over a minute. Using rapid shot that ranged combat used would see 120 attacks in the same minute but at a penalty of -2. If you didnt take SOTR and moved around during that time, like many ranged combat users do, the penalty would be -6 for each shot. A player that uses manyshot full time during that sequence would see 80 attacks during that minute all at -8 to hit. If they also applied rapid shot you would see 100 attacks at -10 to hit. If you also happened to move and didnt have SOTR the total penalty would be -14 to hit.

Setting the world as such adds balance because a ranged combat user would be more likely to pick up SOTR to eliminate the penalties associated with infinate kiteing or might have to make a choice about when to use particular feats. In pnp manyshot is great for taking out large, high hp, but low ac creatures. The penalties may have to be adjusted based on the relative values of AC in the game as we don't see many mobs with low AC and high hp, they tend to be high on both.

Also this isn't ranger love this is love for all classes equally because any class can and should benafit from pulling out a ranged weapon when the situation calls for it.

[vanderberg]

I fixed the ROF issue on my ranger, I don't carry arrows.

Murnk.

[Yaga_Nub]

Correct. Turbine has led us to believe that issues with ranged ROA is due to the physics engine of the game and the extra lag that following the physical pathing of the arrow to its target. Also in there is the issue that decent players with a bow can infinately kite mobs till they die.

If it was up to me ranged ROA would be equal to melee attack speed, for all classes and before applying any feats. The Rapid shot feat would allow for a player to make an extra attack during a sequence, thus raising the ROA by 1 shot for each sequence and applying a -2 attack penalty while it was active (rapid shot would have to be a toggle feat). Manyshot would be a toggle feat that allowed the ranger to make an attack that fires the correct number of arrows per BAB on each shot while applying the corresponding penalty to those shots, the kicker would be that it slows your ROA to 1 attack per sequence. Also composite bows should have the feat bow strength applied to them so that any user can apply their str to the damage portion of the attack. Bow Str should be left as a ranger feat to reflect the pnp theme of the ranged ranger.

Lets say for ease of number crunching that a player at BAB can get off 100 attacks in a minute through melee. This comes to 20 attack sequences of 5 attacks each. A player using ranged combat and no additional feats would also get 100 attacks over a minute. Using rapid shot that ranged combat used would see 120 attacks in the same minute but at a penalty of -2. If you didnt take SOTR and moved around during that time, like many ranged combat users do, the penalty would be -6 for each shot. A player that uses manyshot full time during that sequence would see 80 attacks during that minute all at -8 to hit. If they also applied rapid shot you would see 100 attacks at -10 to hit. If you also happened to move and didnt have SOTR the total penalty would be -14 to hit.

Setting the world as such adds balance because a ranged combat user would be more likely to pick up SOTR to eliminate the penalties associated with infinate kiteing or might have to make a choice about when to use particular feats. In pnp manyshot is great for taking out large, high hp, but low ac creatures. The penalties may have to be adjusted based on the relative values of AC in the game as we don't see many mobs with low AC and high hp, they tend to be high on both.

Also this isn't ranger love this is love for all classes equally because any class can and should benafit from pulling out a ranged weapon when the situation calls for it.

From the online d20srd:

Manyshot [General]
Prerequisites

Dex 17, Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, base attack bonus +6
Benefit

As a standard action, you may fire two arrows at a single opponent within 30 feet. Both arrows use the same attack roll (with a -4 penalty) to determine success and deal damage normally (but see Special).

For every five points of base attack bonus you have above +6, you may add one additional arrow to this attack, to a maximum of four arrows at a base attack bonus of +16. However, each arrow after the second adds a cumulative -2 penalty on the attack roll (for a total penalty of -6 for three arrows and -8 for four).

Damage reduction and other resistances apply separately against each arrow fired.
Special

Regardless of the number of arrows you fire, you apply precision-based damage only once. If you score a critical hit, only the first arrow fired deals critical damage; all others deal regular damage.

A fighter may select Manyshot as one of his fighter bonus feats.

A 6th-level ranger who has chosen the archery combat style is treated as having Manyshot even if he does not have the prerequisites for it, but only when he is wearing light or no armor.

and:

Rapid Shot [General]
Prerequisites

Dex 13, Point Blank Shot.
Benefit

You can get one extra attack per round with a ranged weapon. The attack is at your highest base attack bonus, but each attack you make in that round (the extra one and the normal ones) takes a -2 penalty. You must use the full attack action to use this feat.
Special

A fighter may select Rapid Shot as one of his fighter bonus feats.

A 2nd-level ranger who has chosen the archery combat style is treated as having Rapid Shot, even if he does not have the prerequisites for it, but only when he is wearing light or no armor.

but from the DDO Feat Conpendium:

Rapid Shot
You can fire ranged attacks faster and reload faster when using a ranged weapon.
Prerequisite: Dexterity 13, Point Blank Shot

So DDO didn't follow PnP on the -2 to hit for Rapid Shot nor did they make it a toggled ability. So you are saying that you want them to follow the PnP rules. I can get with that but first, before any other change, we need ranged combat speed to match what it should be in PnP as Turial states.

[Praut_Ektor]

Not sure how to go this way.

My PNP ranger was my first PNP character.

I've currently awarded a DDO character his name and am playing him.

At level 7, I am doing 20-60 points with an arrow. With Multishot I'm bringing down groups of 5-6 Trolls with my bow, and I rarely find the need to run around like a raving looney firing arrows. That's on top of the ability to dual wield my giant stalker knives if I feel the desire.

Does it pull the aggro from the fighters? Sure does, but I haven't heard many complain when I'm dropping 5 Trolls at a distance in about 20 seconds.

Call BS, call it bragging, I try not to, but I think what's broken mostly is the tactics and the builds.

The only thing that makes me sad is that when my ranger grows up he'll have a bow banisher, but he'll have to get close to chop their heads off.

I think more ranger love is always great, for the rangers, but I think that there is plenty of love out there if you can use it right.

Rate of Fire, if it's as fast as it's ever going to get for my ranger, may be a problem but I can still get that many more attacks on something before it closes. I don't see a lot of reason why a ranger should be only TWF or only Ranged combat. That's a PNP mindset. I'm primarily Bow user with plenty of TWF to back it up.

[Draclaud]

If you want to fix ranged combat...Easy...Make Many Shot a Stance like Power Attack is. There yah go...Ranged Combat is fixed...

[dragnmoon]

This thread is more about Ranged Love... Not Ranger love... Rangers got so good loving this mod...*Is that dirty?*

But Ranged attacks need to get fixed... I am Still say it should be the way it is in D&D.. Ranged gets the same attack speed as Melee... That will fix it.. And no.. it won't be unbalanced because Melee will still Out Dmg Ranged attacks and be the preferred method.. but it will help the ranged players

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Multi-shot is great.
Add special damage from bow.......now add special damage from arrows (which stacks a lot more than most people think)
And you can put out some serious DPS.

Add in Impr Prec Shot...and that's potential high DPS to a lot of baddies.

I don't know if it's more DPS than a raging Barb or not....but it's a lot....and baddies drop very fast.

As much as I want to see ranged combat improved....especially the rate of fire part......I ahevt to wonder if it would be unbalancing to the game.

Add huge DPS, plus the ability to attack at a distance and you get a very powerful toon.

Ranged combat is already more powerful than most people give it credit. If for no other reason than being able to do damage from safety......even slow damage is still damage....with little risk in the right environment.

I do hope they increase the rate of fire for ranged combat. But the right way to do it is a little at a time and try to get the right balance.

Improvements to monster AI will help. Kinda like creatures standing in firewalls, they should be smart enough to take cover if they cannot get at the guy shooting them......actually I think just like firewall, the AI should be changed so that survival comes first rather than agro.....but that's just me.

I know if I am taking a lot of damage from something, my priority is survival first....revenge second.

On the topic of ranged damage though, I wish the players would give ranged more respect. It may be broken, but it does work....and many times it works very well......even if slow.
Slow and alive is better than fast and dead any day IMO.

[paintedman]

fix to a stance and we're set.

I got a lvl 13 ranger, and I do alright, but I find myself running from more fights than actually taking down mobs, unless I have saved my manyshot. That or I switch to my para bow, hit auto attack and go and make a grilled cheese sandwich. If it is a trollish mob, then I just have to wait for manyshot.

At higher levels I find it harder and hard to take down mobs, not impossible, not at all, but just harder, than say my wizzard or sorc. No not looking for equality, just what the feat should do in the first place.

I will also not take into consideration the solo rangers who were able to take down the Reaver and what not into account. I'm not that player, so I do not feel like I should play or tirelessly attain gear as those players did.

On the other side of the coin, I can see why fighter types would be opposed to these types of changes, I mean they already have to watch as some disembodied finger steals thier kills that they ran up to get over and over again, why would they want to see even more slip to the guy-in-the-back-with-the-bow right?

Bottom line is that this should not have been a clickie with a cool down time, and if I've read the winds right I think the devs are heading in that direction anyway (see Codog's long long post) so I'm not too worried.

-paintedman

[Aesop]

If you want to fix ranged combat...Easy...Make Many Shot a Stance like Power Attack is. There yah go...Ranged Combat is fixed...

Actually I think that would break ranged combat the other way

just my opinion though

Aesop

[Mercules]

Actually I think that would break ranged combat the other way

just my opinion though

Aesop

And even if it doesn't break it the other way, it certainly hurts anyone who doesn't use a bow for ranged combat. Throwing weapons and crossbows can not use Many Shot so it only "fixes" one third of ranged combat.

RoF should be based off BAB allowing someone with a ranged weapon and all the feats(Rapid Shot, Rapid Reload, etc) for ranged combat to fire off as many shots as someone swinging a sword gets attacks in that 6 seconds.

[Aesop]

And even if it doesn't break it the other way, it certainly hurts anyone who doesn't use a bow for ranged combat. Throwing weapons and crossbows can not use Many Shot so it only "fixes" one third of ranged combat.

RoF should be based off BAB allowing someone with a ranged weapon and all the feats(Rapid Shot, Rapid Reload, etc) for ranged combat to fire off as many shots as someone swinging a sword gets attacks in that 6 seconds.

Yeah I pretty much think that too. THough they swear that ranged combat would be too powerful if it matched melee. So I gavea concession and said 85% the speed of a melee.

maybe with Manyshot as a stance the penalty could be like... oh crud I forgot the persons name...

oh well

make it a-2 to hit and -5% RoF per extra arrow

Start the RoF at 65% and have Rapid Shot add 20% RoF

maybe throw in ewnhancement lines to reduce to hit penalty and another to increase the number of arrows shot (would be very careful about this one though) maybe have it max out at reducing penalties by 4 and the other line increasing # of Arrows possible by 2

Thrown weapons might get an extra 5-10% RoF (over the 85%) from Quick Draw

and I hear repeating x bows are actually too fast right now... though I could be mistaken

Aesop

[Turial]

Actually I think that would break ranged combat the other way

just my opinion though

Aesop

That it would. Imagine that we get 100 attacks over a period of a minute. If manyshot was a stance we would then get 400 attacks in that same period of time. Very broken.

[Turial]

Yeah I pretty much think that too. THough they swear that ranged combat would be too powerful if it matched melee. So I gavea concession and said 85% the speed of a melee.

maybe with Manyshot as a stance the penalty could be like... oh crud I forgot the persons name...

oh well

make it a-2 to hit and -5% RoF per extra arrow

Start the RoF at 65% and have Rapid Shot add 20% RoF

maybe throw in ewnhancement lines to reduce to hit penalty and another to increase the number of arrows shot (would be very careful about this one though) maybe have it max out at reducing penalties by 4 and the other line increasing # of Arrows possible by 2

Thrown weapons might get an extra 5-10% RoF (over the 85%) from Quick Draw

and I hear repeating x bows are actually too fast right now... though I could be mistaken

Aesop

So assuming 100 attacks per min for melee (I use 100 cause its a nice even number and makes fractions easier, I know that melee gets about 94 attacks per min on average). At base a ranged combatant would have 65 attacks per round. With rapid shot we see it increase to 85 attacks in a minute. A ranged combatant that activates the many shot stance would then end up with 65 attacks per round at -8 to hit. The total number of possible hits though is about 260.

The issue at the base of things is that many shot as a stance is likely to be too powerful due to its multiplicative affect on the number of ranged attacks one fires off.

One of the other things I was thinking of was what if many shot was a short timed shot such that one could only shoot one many shot volley during an attack sequence (would have to time it to the completion of a melee attack sequence or roughly 8 seconds). Rapid shot would then need an additional effect added, reducing the cool down of many shot by half to represent the rapid shots ability to launch two many shot volleys during an attack sequence. It retains the speed balance of pnp but still allows ranged combatants to fire off heavy shots when it counts (honestly the real reason to use many shot).

[Aesop]

So assuming 100 attacks per min for melee (I use 100 cause its a nice even number and makes fractions easier, I know that melee gets about 94 attacks per min on average). At base a ranged combatant would have 65 attacks per round. With rapid shot we see it increase to 85 attacks in a minute. A ranged combatant that activates the many shot stance would then end up with 65 attacks per round at -8 to hit. The total number of possible hits though is about 260.

The issue at the base of things is that many shot as a stance is likely to be too powerful due to its multiplicative affect on the number of ranged attacks one fires off.

One of the other things I was thinking of was what if many shot was a short timed shot such that one could only shoot one many shot volley during an attack sequence (would have to time it to the completion of a melee attack sequence or roughly 8 seconds). Rapid shot would then need an additional effect added, reducing the cool down of many shot by half to represent the rapid shots ability to launch two many shot volleys during an attack sequence. It retains the speed balance of pnp but still allows ranged combatants to fire off heavy shots when it counts (honestly the real reason to use many shot).

you mean like Deepwoods Sniper enhancement?

I'm not sure that would fly that well... but maybe

[Hvymetal]

Lets stand at 2 ends of the room, you with your greataxe and me with my bow. Who do you think will fall down first?

Anyhow aside from how hard things hit, we aren't looking to hit harder, just faster. Does haste actually make you fire arrows faster?

Actually I'd be rather interested to see how the actual "stopping power" of a bow really would rate, I think many of you would be suprised. Barring a instantly leathal shot I have a feeling that the berzerk maniac with an axe actually would reach you with several arrows sticking out of him, I would definatly have to rate the axes stopping power to be much greater than the bow, you might stand a chance if the room were say 50 yards across or if you were a most remarkable marksman under intense pressure....

Brings me to two other thoughts brought up by this thread, in that case then wouldn't two weapon fighting animations have to be changed to display the correct number of attacks? And then wouldn't crossbows have to be slowed down even more to fit in with the number of attacks, if I recal isn't loading a light crossbow a move action while reloading a heavy a full round action? So basically (if we are using the 20 attacks per round scenario from above) a hvy repeater user is basically looking at what? 3 attacks for a normal bows 20? Just food for thought.....

[Yaga_Nub]

aye, yes, it does give you a faster rate of fire. It is SUPPOSED to be a selectable ability that gives you a faster rate of fire. Forgive me for knowing why its supposed to work....

Sorry missed your post GH. The point that you replied to was based on the DDO feat not the PnP feat. Obviously, as I pointed out in a later post, they are different. But I'll stand by the statement that if you want to change the feat to match PnP then you need to fix ranged combat's speed to match what it would be in PnP before changing the feat.

[jmonty]

personally i don't care about ranged dps, but i'd like to see better summoned pets, or maybe make improved animal empathy a mass effect. also, if animal empathy is based on charisma, that should be changed to wisdom or maybe ranger level instead.

[Turial]

Actually I'd be rather interested to see how the actual "stopping power" of a bow really would rate, I think many of you would be suprised. Barring a instantly leathal shot I have a feeling that the berzerk maniac with an axe actually would reach you with several arrows sticking out of him, I would definatly have to rate the axes stopping power to be much greater than the bow, you might stand a chance if the room were say 50 yards across or if you were a most remarkable marksman under intense pressure....

Brings me to two other thoughts brought up by this thread, in that case then wouldn't two weapon fighting animations have to be changed to display the correct number of attacks? And then wouldn't crossbows have to be slowed down even more to fit in with the number of attacks, if I recal isn't loading a light crossbow a move action while reloading a heavy a full round action? So basically (if we are using the 20 attacks per round scenario from above) a hvy repeater user is basically looking at what? 3 attacks for a normal bows 20? Just food for thought.....

Not really for two weapon fighting. They do get the correct number of attacks...just not the full animation for it and from a mechanics point of view thats ok. Should it be fixed? Yes but thats an animation issue.

A light crossbow user with no feats would see 20 attacks in a minute and a heavy crossbow user would get 10 attacks in the same minute. A repeater user would see 10 attacks of 5 bolts each for 50 attacks in a minute.

Add in rapid reload and the light crossbow user can obtain 100 attacks in a minute as the reload is changed to a free action rather then a move action. A heavy crossbow user would be increased to 20 attacks as the reload is no longer a full round action but a move action. The repeater user would then see 20 attacks of 5 bolts each for 100 attacks in a minute.

So in the end the crossbow does see a slowdown in ROA but it comes up to full martial weapon ROA with the addition of a single feat. Not bad overall for a ranged weapon that can be used by all classes and has a better crit range then a bow. The SRD doesnt list the differences between the light and heavy repeaters in terms of reload times and number of bolts that they can hold so I just listed a blank repeater. The benafit of the repeater is a quick burst of attacks from a weapon with a higher crit range then a bow, which is a game were on critical effect matter a large amount is decent for an exotic feat.

I dont know how rapid shot and crossbows interact in pnp. I would think that so long as you could make multiple attacks in a round you would be able to apply the effects of rapid shot. So a light crossbow user with rapid reload and rapid shot could have 120 attacks in a minute with a total penalty of -2 to each shot. It doesn't seem that rapid shot would work with heavy crossbows or repeaters because you can only reduce the reload time to a move action and thus wouldn't get an additional attack. This is because you can only take 1 standard action with a move action in a single round.

And yes the guy with the axe would likely reach the ranged combat user with a few arrows sticking out of him but he is a little easier to kill with a few arrows sticking out of him then he is without them. Axes generally have better "stopping" power then bows because of their increased damage dice and critical range.

[ChildrenofBodom]

It's actually really annoying for a melee when a ranger pulls aggro, because of how hard Turbine made it to hit moving mobs, and how long it takes the ranger to kill it.

No one says you have to chase a monster that a ranger aggros.....

Move on or start killing another monster. All my friends know that if I feel like going ranged I can handle a monster on my own. If the ranger can't handle the mob they are kiting, I understand your complaint, but if the ranger knows what he/she is doing, just don't chase the mob...

[Karavek]

What is wrong with you my friend, I have played 3 ranger hybrids and though none be the mightiest I do not feel they are weak. My first character when I begane was a pal/rang/rogue, this was done to simulate a character I ahd played in second edition a half elf ranger rogue who using skills and powers optional rule book had adopted a few paladin traits becasue he had been the oldest son of a dragon slaying paladin but was unable to fit in among the humans alone(his mother had dissappeared when he was little answering the call of her elvish homeland whena great threat arose and she fell in battle) and when he was nearly a man a mysterious elf druid ranger appeared and offered to teach him the ways of his mothers people( an uncle who fulfilled the dying promise of his sister). His name was karavek and though I had made his stats rounded not having any extremes he was one of the first rogue paladins on the fernia server and his preferance to start with a bow then change to 2 weapon style often gained him a nice kill count as well as being very enduring to magic compared to many at the time but the over powered pure paladin in this game.

My second was a elf ranger rogue 5/5 split ( id quit just after the lvl 12 cap increase for many reasons not game related and a few that where) named spruce who had gone after the super dex finnesse warrior, though he had a decent strength still to take advantage of the str bow dmg rangers get. He excelled well until they crippled his ability to do battle against red bosses with his favored weapon a wounding rapier(this was back when wounders where quite rare still, and though many think its the wounding puncturer taht brought about total stat damage immunity it was really ray of enfeeblment being spammed on the dragon) which was used so hard it finally lost all durability before i could gain another as back up. He was an awesome warrior who 3 times faced the Big Red, and though never did the group see victory, all 3 times I was the last elf standing my evasion super reflex and high accuracy let my frost rapier and short sword of pure good deal healthy damage(it was only when my cure potions ran out that I finally dropped for it breathed way to much which was harmless for the most part to me, and only whena claw/claw/bite caught me and all 3 where crits was I overwhelmed)

And finally there is my current ranger/rouge drow. As I only recently returned to Stormreach and found many differences in feats and enhancments I felt it was time to try a new drow version until i unlock 32 point builds and can re roll spruce springsting into an even mighter high elf. I have cleared 9 lvls in 6 days, soloing for the most part through to lvl 4 at a fast pace, and even soloing through the WW 9 frikken times from 3-5 for my black widow bracers( I did once or twice have a friend or two along from the small guild I hooked up with but it was only for company not need of assitance). He to favors wounders though ofcourse they mean nothing to the fierce red names now, and has to carry a bag full of weapons for every variety of foe.

Now you may ask by now where is the response to ranged rangers, well here it comes. Never existed in PnP, even if a ranger takes only ranged related feats, even if all his prestige classes are foccussed in archery( say arcane archer, order of the bow initiate, deepwood stalker, and likely 4 lvls in ftr for bow spec) rangers still draw thier twin blades in close quarters or maces for skellies and the like after all some things jsut make little sense to shoot pointy sticks at no matter thier magical power. Dont like hearing taht you are expect to close, well to bad you are a frikken warrior not a sniveling sorcerer hiding in the backrow. Since the first days in DDO I infact get offended by casters who dont carry a decent staff and throwing dagger to at least help in some fights while conserving spell points, if they wanted to be blasters they should play COH. And do not even get me started on all my elven and drow kinsman who do not see the logic in some decent mithril armor and a good rapier and an odd lvl or two in ftr or ranger or pal to be a light tank for when mana is low or needs to be saved for the boss.

Why would you even want to be a pure archer, if you want to be a ranged death dealer only casters can dominate, and that is the way it is. In melee all warriors, and the rogue should be farely equal, though due to many imbalances in the game( largely having to due with the mass of undead quest probably 40%, and constructs probably another 20%, and red names mattering most maybe another 5-10% paladins and high str dps builds have a huge advantage, especially th paladins point blank divine fire ball as i call it, allow a paladin to do things they never could in PnP being tradionally weaker in most quest that are no undead heavy which they are not with the enhancements allowing them stronger saves and combat abilities then they normally would have.

The real point is not you being pure ranged but the complete imbalance of you and most other high dex low str ranger and rogue builds being unable to bring the full force of our already existing abilities to the battles in many quest. For example the crit power of deepwood means nothing to 60% of the foes, same with poor rogues sneak atk forces us to either spend huge amounts of coin aquiring highly sought after finnesse weapons( when a Sunblade should just be a static reward in threnal along side retribution( after all 4d6 is better then a D10+2 agaisnt undead, and give all 2 weapon ftrs, and finnesse ftrs a good weapon agaisnt a major enemy type without need to grind for ever for the 4-9 million gold most ask for them on auction.

Remember bows are not your only weapon, even as my twin weapon masters are still competent archers with a high dex decent str and innate ranger bow feats, so to are bow users still meant to draw steel when the beast closes quarters on you. Do not ask for a buff to archery whcih likely will elad to further imbalance, instead ask for the tools we need to do our jobs right , after all if you had 2 sunblades( which in pnp most rangers carry by lvl 10) then you wouldnt fear the dark chaos of the melee

As for a Bows stopping power agaisnt things you can crit, geta silver bow, take all the feats, try deepwood sniper, and pack bane arrows, or elemental damage arrows for the right job, against the big red you could be doing +4d6 per shot with frost arrows with that silver bow and on your sniper shot havea 16-20x4 crit(never seen them but frost burst arrows would be even better with 6d10 bonus on the crit. Like rogues and finesse warriors, archers just need the right weapons for the right job, be thankful at least your favored weapon type has some good easy to get ones out there, and many sell thier elemental and bane arrows on auction making ammo easier to find.

I hope this helps to enlighten you to the true imbalance and learn to fight smarter not harder.

Walk in the woods, run with the breeze, no matter how mighty, the Red will always fear the Freeze.Be safe and stalk well my fellow rangers.

If you are on ghallanda seek out Leafon The whirlwind, ranger/rogue/ftr drow tempest. I am but a leaf on the wind, a sword in the storm, the elven hurricane and will continue to champion the cause of elves and thier small kin the halflings for all times.