Lightning room in the Pit on Elite

[Kaldaka]

Remember guys,

Read the name of the thread.

I tried to be very specific in what this thread would be talking about, regardless how off base some of these posters get. Its only certain areas of certain quests that my gripe is really about.

[Vormaerin]

Yeah, it technically affects everyone, but there are certain classes that are affected more.

And in most cases that "More" is not the rogue since he or she has disabled the trap without ever worrying about the DC on the save. The save only matters to groups that can't disarm it (ie not rogues). The lightning chamber isn't even a "trap" per se. You don't need the rogue to do it, since there is nothing requiring rogue skills involved. Rogues usually do it, because evasion is great. The same is true of Scoundrel's Run fire chamber. If the DC is so high that damage absorption is better than damage mitigation, go with a hasted barb or something.

A certain very small number of actual traps do have a very adverse effect on rogue play with the current DCs, in that it requires a heavily lopsided 'traps' build or a player with extensive knowledge of the trap and the mouse control skill to handle it. But that fact does not make a more general statement that DCs unfairly affect rogues overall into a true one.

[GlassCannon]

Hmm, well save aside, this sounds like a stupidity problem, and not a developer one.

It is quite easy to avoid the lightning and pull the levers, just work your way around the outside, and time your inside pulls with the lightning bursts. Combine that with having electric resist and protect, and you should never die. I have soloed the pit on elite with a 10 bard, only dying when there was a mistimed charm break by my warlord army.

I'd love to see your video on just how to do that.

Go ahead and try making one.

[Emili]

Elite is no longer required. You can now get 1750 favor by completing every quest on Hard (plus the 7 solos in the Harbor). Do some of the "easier" quests on Elite, and you can skip some of the "harder" ones on Hard (or skip them on Normal, too).

Your logic may be flawed as people run these favor runs for a lot more that 32 point builds or an extra +2 tome.

There is a lot more to favor then 1750... It's the sum of the lower individual house favor which goes very far on a character. Every girl in my sig is well over 2k favor and the simple +2 tome on all of them is nothing compared to... the house perks which really mater... I can go raid a +2 or +3 tome probably a lot quicker then I can run every quest on elite... just raid every single day or go out in the vail for a +2 tome. I'll be darned if any character of mine will do without full packspace, and full bank space, a pendant of time, silverlfame potions, improved repairing 10 more hp etc... that is what drives the favor system - not 32 point builds - it's the perks for all your characters and by the time you grab all these guess what? You're so close to 1750 that it just drives you way more to get the bloody mark - and the only way to get some of the house favor is - elite. 1750 is not a big incentive to a veteran player at all only a brand new player - who by the way now has a harder climb of it then we ever did, because after they get that 1750 they're going to want to roll up new characters and put these perks on every one them also.

[Emili]

That's kind of like saying that increasing the saving throw scores on all the monsters affects everyone since if they aren't being FoD'ed right away they hit people more and everyone takes damage.

Yeah, it technically affects everyone, but there are certain classes that are affected more.

What affects one class affects the entire group, it affects the group make-up and it's entire dynamic. It affects strategies and of course resources.

The overall result though is sometimes a character gets a bad rap... in the case of the rogue? Hmmm, had to res him 3 times, he still did not get the box, had to spend time healing people to get through it, 2 others died because of that? What do we assume people to think about the rogue now? Will that rogue get an invite back from anyone in this group? If it happens enough then it comes to a point that rogue never sees that quest on elite again.

[MysticTheurge]

You don't need the rogue to do it, since there is nothing requiring rogue skills involved. Rogues usually do it, because evasion is great.

Um, right. You don't need a rogue to do it. You need someone with Evasion who isn't going to take a ton of damage.

[redoubt]

My post has been misunderstood.

I was being flippant, first of all.

I am sorry if you post was mis-understood, but if you were being flippant you need to expect it. With no tone of voice or body language here in print... well... we just cannot tell.

Secondly, I was describing a CONSTANT, not a modification with module 6. ???

Until now, the traps have done significant damage, but the accepted tactic has been to "just run through it and we'll heal up afterwards". No tactics, no timing, no specific preparations, just ZERG.

This was the tactic for some, not all. I, and the people I tend to group with, have always tried to avoid trap damage. Either by disable or avoidance if we did not have a rogue.

Before Mod6, Melees have built their characters with the most AC they can get, and sacrificed attack ability. Or sac AC for DPS, or sac DPS for attack.
Casters? use mm or just buff the party members. Your sleep won't be touching anyone, and the grease affects more of your own team than theirs. ???

I'm not saying that the changes are good, but I do think they were in the right direction. What I expect to see from this is people requiring a rogue in their groups the same way a cleric is required in a group. Partly a good thing, but mostly I dislike it (as a cleric, not a rogue; my better rogue builds are including per/hit effects, I usually play skill-monkeys). What have I seen from this change? Nothing. Complaints on forums, but that's never different. Complaints from certain people, that makes me pay more attention. But I haven't seen a change in tactics on the servers from this change yet.

Clerics are not required in most quests, even on elite. Rogues should not be required on most quests. (On a few, sure, but not most.)

[Vormaerin]

Um, right. You don't need a rogue to do it. You need someone with Evasion who isn't going to take a ton of damage.

Such a ranger or (after mod 7) the monk, both of whom will incidentally have more hp than a rogue and be faster. Or someone like a barbarian who can take a heck of lot more damage than a rogue and move through the obstacle faster where that is relevant (a lot in Scoundrel's run, not so much in the Pit).

[captain1z]

Im sorry........

I poked my head in a little late in the discussion.

From what I hear some believe elite is to difficult and casual gamers cant complete it.


Well I would have to agree then.

As a matter of fact...... Im gunna go sign up for sky diving lessons at 1pm and I expect to be jumping out of planes by 3pm at latest. I already have experience with planes anyway as I have flown to different places before and I get a greta veiw of everything from coach.


see you guys on the way down.

[Pellegro]

grrr...

apparently only SOME traps on elite aren't doing damage.

i need an aspirin. long week ... really.

[Pellegro]

Right, but that means, what you've essentially done is created a good two thirds of your game (hard/elite) that the vast majority of people won't ever actually play or, at the very least, shouldn't.

It seems obvious with trap damage on elite being disabled that the DEVs have spoken loud and clear on their view.

I think the above quote, however, is dead wrong.

You can make ELITE +5 levels over normal, but only award +2 levels of reward, and still, a large portion of the population will run it on elite without any problems.

Why? Because your'e getting +2 reward.

The concern that this unfairly induces PUGs into running Elite when they shouldn't is empty. That's true of any type of system that has quest levels with increasing rewards. Lvl 10s run GH all the time, if they're good. Just b/c some lvl 10s who shouldn't be are trying it is no reason to penalize those who can handle it and implement some sort of "you cant even enter teh quest until your level 12" requirement.

Players don't need to be protected from themselves ...

Greater variety between difficulties is good for the game because there is a not insubstantial portion of players who are "good". There are 3 settings. One of them should be for those players.

If it makes others feel better, change the name from "elite" to "Suicidal" or such ...

[eonfreon]

Im sorry........

I poked my head in a little late in the discussion.

From what I hear some believe elite is to difficult and casual gamers cant complete it.


Well I would have to agree then.

As a matter of fact...... Im gunna go sign up for sky diving lessons at 1pm and I expect to be jumping out of planes by 3pm at latest. I already have experience with planes anyway as I have flown to different places before and I get a greta veiw of everything from coach.


see you guys on the way down.

Wow, that's a long time in training- when I went skydiving the lesson was maybe 45 minutes tops. When next you make an analogy, it helps if you have actual experience to connect the events.

[Vormaerin]

Those who feel elite DCs are too high have apparently convinced the powers that be.

Traps on elite no longer do damage.

More details to come ....

All traps on elite? because a number of them were borked before and didn't do any damage. Some of them were broken after mod 6, mainly the really high end ones. If they are all broken that would be new..

[miceelf88]

Please don't continue this rumor further. There are some traps on elite in the new content that have been broken since mod 6 came out. But believe me when I say that the traps on elite still do damage.

I was on a pug in chamber of insanity on elite last night, and three of our players were in the secret chest area when it was opened (i didn't have time to warn them). they all died instantly.

[MysticTheurge]

The concern that this unfairly induces PUGs into running Elite when they shouldn't is empty. That's true of any type of system that has quest levels with increasing rewards. Lvl 10s run GH all the time, if they're good. Just b/c some lvl 10s who shouldn't be are trying it is no reason to penalize those who can handle it and implement some sort of "you cant even enter teh quest until your level 12" requirement.

Except, on normal, the "Quest Level" isn't trying to fake you out.

Players don't need to be protected from themselves, but many of them do need to actually be informed of what they're going up against.

[Pellegro]

Please don't continue this rumor further. There are some traps on elite in the new content that have been broken since mod 6 came out. But believe me when I say that the traps on elite still do damage.

I was on a pug in chamber of insanity on elite last night, and three of our players were in the secret chest area when it was opened (i didn't have time to warn them). they all died instantly.

Oh?

My bad....

I ran maybe 3 or 4 quests the other night and in all the elite traps were not doing damage.

Dang I'm on a bad posting roll here ....

/wanders off wondering if the alcohol is starting to catch up ...

[Pellegro]

Except, on normal, the "Quest Level" isn't trying to fake you out.

Players don't need to be protected from themselves, but many of them do need to actually be informed of what they're going up against.

I don't want to be argumentative but I'd suggest that with reuseable shrines, the "normal" level indication is probably also wrong, being overstated by a level.

Regardless, they've said they're looking into how to more accurately label Elite. That is, I think Eladrin said something like that ....

[Rog]

this one is easy drop the rog in there and make him disarm all the traps before the rest of the party drops into the pit the same as always.
give him lighting resestance and mybe a lighting potif he has invis pots that help him a lot. hope he has good move silent and hide skills.
silentfoot

[Kaldaka]

this one is easy drop the rog in there and make him disarm all the traps before the rest of the party drops into the pit the same as always.
give him lighting resestance and mybe a lighting potif he has invis pots that help him a lot. hope he has good move silent and hide skills.
silentfoot

And yet he will still likely die unless the player has elite twitch skills.

Pretty bad when the Devs make the computer user's clicking skills, not the actual toon, the deciding factor of whether or not you die in a quest.

Heres a good quote for ya: "My toon's better than yours because I can click 'Shift-W-Double Click Right Mouse button' faster than you", as opposed to "My toon's better than yours because of good character planning and better equipment". Which do you think is right?

[MysticTheurge]

Pretty bad when the Devs make the computer user's clicking skills, not the actual toon, the deciding factor of whether or not you die in a quest.

And this is the crux of the complaint.

It's like when your tabletop DM doesn't let your +30 diplomacy bard successfully smooth talk the King just because you, the player, aren't the most eloquent person in the world.