Lightning room in the Pit on Elite

[Lorien_the_First_One]

Fair issue, but isn't that inherent in the idea of having elite mean something?

It means its the third level of difficulty. They could just as well have used 1/2/3. As described in the documentation that is posted on the Turbine web sites and included with every game, "elite" means that the quest is 2 levels higher. Anything else is a break from the rules Turbine themselves set.

[Vormaerin]

Well, I do believe Eladrin did say they were going to be fixing that explanation...

Maybe at this point they should just add a 4th lvl of difficulty so all the folks who have been running elite, but belong running "hard" according to Eladrin's formulation, will not have anything to complain about.

Eladrin's replies are interesting, but unless I missed something, they fall short of actually explaining what the dev team's intent was. In various threads it has been suggested that the new DCs were introduced to

1) consciously break splash rogues
2) make "elite" be "elite" by mandating player skill rather than character skill in traps
3) make rogues matter
4) stop zerging play

These are often mutually conflicting goals, so it would be useful to know what the Devs actually wanted.. assuming anyone is interested in our evaluation of a design's functionality. I'd like to know even if no one cares what I think about it, of course :P

Personally, I like the player skill elements of DDO like maneuvering through traps and dodging rays. I'm not actually any good at them, but I like that they are there. I also don't care if there is a "Heart of Fury" mode in the game. It is just one of those things I don't have a use for that others do... like pvp or raids. But I don't think the trap changes achieve any of the four proposed rationales... though it comes closest to achieving #1.

What I don't like is having a scattershot approach to elite, where different elements scale differently. If they want a 'heart of fury type of elite, fine with me. Just make it so that the spellcasters, melee mobs, traps, runes, etc are all scaled upwards equally and the challenge across the party is balanced (or at least has the same sort of balance the quest had on normal).

[GeneralDiomedes]

My question was, why didn't the developers make quests scale appropriately so that everyone (not just leet powergamers) could have a wider selection of quests from which to choose at any given level. It seems like a complete waste to have a system that ups difficulties by 5 levels but provides rewards typical of 2 levels, because people who want a challenge can already try to run Xorian Cipher at level 5. They can already attempt Threnal at level 7, they can already run Madstone Crater at level 11. The only difference between that and running elite versions of quests is that in one case you get rewards commensurate with your play, and in the other you don't.

And then what are the skilled players going to do at once they have reached level 12?

I am currently trying my hand at soloing, and certainly any quest that I have encountered should not be too much for an entire frickin group of level appropriate players. So far the only impediments have been artificial, such as stat runes, levers which require more than one person, or shrines that are locked with a high DC.

[Raithe]

And then what are the skilled players going to do at once they have reached level 12?

They will hit a cap, just like everyone does. If the devs don't like how that cap goes for a large majority of the playerbase, they can add higher level quests to the game before raising the character levels.

And it would be a simple matter to lower chest levels for those quests (if not automatically controlled by character level anyway) until such time they raise character levels.

The benefits of keeping appropriate scaling on hard and elite far outweigh some illusionary problem of hardcore players being bored because content at the cap is too easy. It's too easy anyway, and hardcore players don't keep playing because of the challenges they keep facing. They keep playing to continually minimize those challenges.

[wizzy_catt]

We are, of course, watching the effects of the trap DC changes and taking into consideration both the intended and unintended consequences of the change, and may end up adjusting them (and other things) in the future.

We're also investigating some changes to how the different difficulty settings are explained, to clear up some miscommunications. A group of level 4 characters may not be able to complete a level 2 dungeon on Elite - in general, the rewards go up by 2 levels on Elite, but the difficulties of challenges go up by around 5.

you are? then fix the problem! dc is too high for many quests on elite not just 1 or 2. yes lv4 cannot complete a lv2 quest is ridiculous, then make it possible. fix the problems before you create more problems/bugs. if rogue runs out of tools = party wipe? LOL

[TFPAQ]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raithe
Now, see, this is what I thought they meant by elite. I thought the DM text was spaced a little closer together...


Can I get MORE favor for completing it on Pica?

[Vormaerin]

you are? then fix the problem! dc is too high for many quests on elite not just 1 or 2. yes lv4 cannot complete a lv2 quest is ridiculous, then make it possible. fix the problems before you create more problems/bugs. if rogue runs out of tools = party wipe? LOL

Umm, I think you misread Eladrin. He doesn't think it would be bad if lvl 4s couldn't complete a base lvl 2 quest set on elite. So he's not going to fix that unless something changes his thinking about what elite means. According to his statement, a typical party might reasonably need to be lvl 6 or 7 to do it.

Now, the fact is the game doesn't work like that. There's nothing that a lvl 4 party of untwinked characters can't do on elite in the harbor if they have a rogue. Without a rogue, maybe a couple of the dungeons get a little dicey but I'm not sure that's true. I'd have to check the new values on the trap damage on the harbor quests.

[MysticTheurge]

Umm, I think you misread Eladrin. He doesn't think it would be bad if lvl 4s couldn't complete a base lvl 2 quest set on elite. So he's not going to fix that unless something changes his thinking about what elite means. According to his statement, a typical party might reasonably need to be lvl 6 or 7 to do it.

That statement baffles me honestly. Because once you're 3 levels above the quest level you're taking some pretty serious XP penalty. I mean, what's the breaking point for no XP at all, 4 levels?

If, in fact, the quests are 5 levels harder on elite that's the level they should be tagged in terms of what's level appropriate. Even if just for XP calculations, if nothing else.

[CrazySamaritan]

Because elite means more risk for LESS commensurate reward, (excepting favor, I think).

9/10 times, you're better off doing a higher level quest on normal than a lower level quest on elite, in terms of xp/gear. The only point at which it really changes is cap levels, where the only higher level quests are hard/elite.

[GeneralDiomedes]

Please, Eladrin, don't neuter Elite.

And anyone please name me 1 harbor quest that requires a Rogue to complete. The only one that even provides a twitch challenge is Sewer Rescue. The two hardest harbor quests on Elite are Irestone and Kobold Assault .. neither of which benefits by having a disabler.

EDIT: I added Sewer Rescue at the same time you posted Crazy .. I'm pretty good at that one by now.. sometimes it hits me .. but never more than once! BTW what is the damage on elite now? Pre-mod6 it was about 33 if I remember.

[CrazySamaritan]

Sewer Rescue; passing the spike/blade trap.
Not un-possible without a rogue, but not easy, either.

[Vormaerin]

That statement baffles me honestly. Because once you're 3 levels above the quest level you're taking some pretty serious XP penalty. I mean, what's the breaking point for no XP at all, 4 levels?

If, in fact, the quests are 5 levels harder on elite that's the level they should be tagged in terms of what's level appropriate. Even if just for XP calculations, if nothing else.

Its 35% for 3 levels. So less than the +50% for elite. Four levels is -50% and five is -75%. Six is the 0 xp point, IIRC. The point being that elite is not intended to be "fair". Its intended to be a challenge for those who want extra challenge for its own sake.

Not that it actually works like that right now, but that's what Eladrin's posts espouse as the theory.

[MysticTheurge]

Because elite means more risk for LESS commensurate reward, (excepting favor, I think).

9/10 times, you're better off doing a higher level quest on normal than a lower level quest on elite, in terms of xp/gear. The only point at which it really changes is cap levels, where the only higher level quests are hard/elite.

Its 35% for 3 levels. So less than the +50% for elite. Four levels is -50% and five is -75%. Six is the 0 xp point, IIRC. The point being that elite is not intended to be "fair". Its intended to be a challenge for those who want extra challenge for its own sake.

Not that it actually works like that right now, but that's what Eladrin's posts espouse as the theory.

Right, but that means, what you've essentially done is created a good two thirds of your game (hard/elite) that the vast majority of people won't ever actually play or, at the very least, shouldn't.

Sure, they should go back once they're at level 16 and solo low-level stuff on elite for favor.

But if you really want hard/elite to be part of the game, it should give out the appropriate rewards (XP, loot) for its difficulty, or have the appropriate difficulty for its rewards.

CrazySamaritan is right. Really, the only time people should be doing elite is once per quest to get favor and then at the cap to get better loot. But why would you want to spend so much time making hard and elite settings that almost no one's ever going to actually play in the way they're intended to be played (i.e. at the appropriate level)?

[EspyLacopa]

But if you really want hard/elite to be part of the game, it should give out the appropriate rewards (XP, loot) for its difficulty, or have the appropriate difficulty for its rewards.

Didn't someone say that if the devs wanted to give us hard stuff for hardness sake, that the rewards shouldn't be that much different, and thus give the only incentive to be essentially Bragging Rights?

If so. . .then is that not what the devs have in fact done?

[MysticTheurge]

Didn't someone say that if the devs wanted to give us hard stuff for hardness sake, that the rewards shouldn't be that much different, and thus give the only incentive to be essentially Bragging Rights?

If so. . .then is that not what the devs have in fact done?

Right, I said that. And no. They're not "not that much different." They're just different enough to try to convince people that they should be playing on harder settings, without actually rewarding them appropriately.

In my eyes, you should either choose to a) not reward elite in any additional fashion and simply allow it to be a "I want more of a challenge" setting, thus encouraging people who really shouldn't be playing on elite to not drag PUGs into elite quests that are going to take hours to do and generally not be fun for everyone or b) set the appropriate "level" on the quest and give out the appropriate rewards, thus at least giving people advance warning that they're trying a quest whose difficulty is really 5-6 levels over their heads. This would also allow you to really do quests that are only 1-2 levels above your head and get the appropriate rewards.

Doing something half-way in between really creates a whole score of problems.

[redoubt]

Didn't someone say that if the devs wanted to give us hard stuff for hardness sake, that the rewards shouldn't be that much different, and thus give the only incentive to be essentially Bragging Rights?

If so. . .then is that not what the devs have in fact done?

I have also said that. But right now elite gives favor. Therefore, to a great many of us, elite is a required part of the game and not just for bragging rights.

As far as challenge goes, I'm okay with making the elite dungeons harder. Note: I did not ask them to be neutered. Right now the trap DCs are not right. Make the whole thing harder. Make a more known scale. The scaling can even be variable between different quests, but publish the levels for hard and elite so we know. Make the mobs and traps scale together. Don't do blanket immunities to everything. Have them cast self buffs (been seeing this more lately, and its good.) Give elite mobs better AI.

You can even leave favor on the elite level if the quest is balanced out and continues to follow the "group of four" mentality. Just tell us what level that group should be. I.e. if you want proof is in the poison to be level 4norm, level 8hard and level 12elite, then thats cool. Have that info show up on the level select screen. A side benifit to that would be making the re-running of content more spread out and less of a grind. You would have fewer n/h/e back to back runs.

[akla_thornfist]

this is what i dont get about eladrins statement about needing lev 6-7 characters to do a lev 2 quest on elite, the quest will be lev 4 if your lev 6-7 your gonna get 20-30% less xp for that quest right from the start and thats for 1st time do it again 40% less this does not compute. so if you wanna do the quest on elite expect to get less xp man that blows.

[Mad_Bombardier]

Rea;;y? Because if I remember right you set one of the most important goals of the game up so that playing at Elite is REQUIRED.

No, you don't HAVE to attain 32 pt builds... but I'll be damned if you didn't make the road long and perilous.

Elite is no longer required. You can now get 1750 favor by completing every quest on Hard (plus the 7 solos in the Harbor). Do some of the "easier" quests on Elite, and you can skip some of the "harder" ones on Hard (or skip them on Normal, too).

[Mad_Bombardier]

We're also investigating some changes to how the different difficulty settings are explained, to clear up some miscommunications. A group of level 4 characters may not be able to complete a level 2 dungeon on Elite - in general, the rewards go up by 2 levels on Elite, but the difficulties of challenges go up by around 5.

This is the best bit of news I've heard all day (can't believe I missed it when you posted on Saturday )! I've long felt that 'Hard' and 'Elite' were misnomers. And I look forward to a more clear explanation.

[CrazySamaritan]

But why would you want to spend so much time making hard and elite settings that almost no one's ever going to actually play in the way they're intended to be played (i.e. at the appropriate level)?

Because some of us are crazy, and do it at the level for normal