Lightning room in the Pit on Elite

[miceelf88]

I was complaining about the lack of dev response. But now that they've responded, I'm really disheartened.

no one is disputing that Elite should be a challenge.

But why the challenge should be in the form of unsaveable traps (rather than, say, unhittable monsters or unmakeable runes) still isn't clear.

The whole "elite should be elite" is really an annoying straw man. They've set things up requiring a very specific build or perfect twitch skills to complete some of the traps. There's no particular increase in the play skill in terms of strategy or decision making, it's just an artificial requirement that the rogue in the party have great twitch skills and/or a perfect build.

I'm deleting my rogue. What's the point? Over the next month or so, I'm going to evaluate how I spend my free time, and whether this game that used to be fun, but is losing a lot of the fun, is worth what I am paying.

[Lithic]

My problem with this is that the trap save DC's are the only thing that is actually super hard in those quests. Best example are the goodblades with their DC 20+ to save vs traps for 50+pts of damage. The rest of the quest is a walk in the park for any decently equiped and experienced team at lvl 1-2 even on elite. I've even done it solo at lvl 1 on elite with my (at the time pure) rogue, who admitedly was twinked to the gills, with few if any problems.

Now? Step into the trap though, and its autodeath. Sure you get a save. But even the most trap oriented character needs to roll at least a 11 to save (maybe higher) so that he can be dead at -15 instead of -100. Got a trap that can't be disabled, or that you blew up and cant be bypassed? May as well give up and start over.

Past lvl 10 or so, the trap DCs arent scaling quite so high (they didnt double/triple like they do in the low level quests), so they arent as much of a problem. I can still solo Crucible elite on my 158hp caster (Cept for the maze valves. Shouldnt a summoned efreet be able to turn those on my command?), I can still get by most traps on elite without dying, and I can still have a rogue, or not, for any high level quest.

[SkyCry]

Traps kill on elite = good, in fact very good. I like playing on elite and using these traps against my enemies - don't even have to web them in place, if on elite.

Traps that can't be disabled or avoided (or need a rogue to get to the other side before disabling) AND they kill even a rogue with evasion on elite = bad.

So pit main breaker room killing a rogue with resist electricity = bad. Most other traps kill on elite = good.

[Pellegro]

I'm hoping that I am misunderstanding your post (and Shade's for that matter). What I'm hearing is:

"I'm glad they are making normal easier, because most of you are idiots. I'm also glad that elite is getting harder, because I need a place where only me and shade can play and look cool and better than the rest of you idiots."

Really, I don't care if elite is made harder. But don't just scale the traps and don't make it a twitch game. Let our characters' skills be worth something.

You want a real challenge? Lead a pug of people who have not done a quest through one. Don't do it for them. Lead them. Sure you are superman, but can you get your team through too?

Want another challenge? Go join the perma death guys.

And ... nvm... I'm too tired of the elitist junk.

I'm sorry that's how you feel. You have interjected the pejorative "idiot" etc. into the discussion - not I.

Think of it this way: For the game to succeed, it needs to be as inclusive as possible.

There are many "elite" players. I'm far from an "elite" gamer, btw - go play an FPS and learn what having elite twitch skills means.

Back to the point - by having an "elite" setting, you're giving those who enjoy a harder challenge something to do. By making "normal" easier, you're helping out those who struggle. And by making Hard a good solid challenge, you're catering to the average player who's been at it awhile.

The alternative is to make Elite really mean little, and be the default setting. That's not terribly elite, is it? Were you around pre-Mod5 when everyone was screaming about how easy the game was??? Droves of players left out of boredom.

As for those who run elite and it takes them 4 hours .... ??? How can that be a design issue. MT I'm looking at your friend here. Would you feel bad for a group of level 10s who struggle through Running With the Devils on Elite? Of course not.

More variety = good. Less variety = bad. Complaining that someone else can (or can't) do something you can = bad.

[Geriant]

Ran Made to Order on elite last night with a group of 14-16th levels. The 'mine' traps are now making that dungeon a truly frustrating experience. A rogue with a spot/search in the 60s can't find them, so only way to find them is to stumble over them and take 120-150 points of damage after resists/protection (rarely made a save as a paladin with saves in the 30's when combat would force me to run by one). As far as I know, there is no way to disarm them and as they are randomly placed, no way to 'learn' where they are to try to avoid them other than having someone take one for the team. Can't even use them against the mobs as they don't set the traps off.

I can understand folks who want elite to be 'elite', but this was ridiculous.

~G

[Raithe]

Complaining that someone else can (or can't) do something you can = bad.

The issue isn't about who can do something and who can't. The issue is that several long time players (2 years of playing) have characters that could do something before Mod 6, but now can't. Not pure sorcerors. Not pure barbs (who actually fair better from this change). Not pure fighters. They are evasion characters that by the rules and typical standards of D&D, should be able to enter a trap and have a decent chance of not taking damage. That is what the definition of evasion is.

You continue to ignore this important aspect of the discussion, and until you start addressing it I doubt any of your arguments will be taken seriously.

[Raithe]

A rogue with a spot/search in the 60s can't find them... ~G

I actually tested the "Made to Order" traps during the long search/spot DC debacle debate. My bard/rogue successfully found the trap boxes with a 33 search.

You have to be in the right area to find them.

[Pellegro]

You continue to ignore this important aspect of the discussion, and until you start addressing it I doubt any of your arguments will be taken seriously.

OK. I'll just continue to not be taken seriously. Thanks for showing me the light.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

Playing extremely difficult dungeons on Elite?

Elite difficulty is very much not intended to be the "default" difficulty setting for normal play.

Then you should change the instructions that say its 2 levels higher if it isn't. And you should change the favor system that assumes everyone can do everything on elite (you may have done that in the vale since it has the least needed favor in the game)

My quick(*) calculations indicate that if you do every quest on Hard, you should be around 1727 total favor, 1749 total favor once the Shroud starts reporting correctly.

The problem with this is that the house favors do require you to get pretty much all the quests in their house to get the required favor - and to get them at level appropriate points or the favor doesnt do you much good.

The other problem that you are ignoring...again... is that the casual gamer can't just ignore the elite quests. Take a look at the postings sometimes, people either are doing norm (fine) or elite. They only do hard if they are trying to get elite and don't have an openner or if they are doing norm/hard/elite to maximize xp. The casual gamer who relies on pugs will be brought into the same elite quests as the uberplayers and be made to feel useless (which results in sub cancellations). The alternative is they won't find many groups...

[Raithe]

The other problem that you are ignoring...again... is that the casual gamer can't just ignore the elite quests. Take a look at the postings sometimes, people either are doing norm (fine) or elite. They only do hard if they are trying to get elite and don't have an openner or if they are doing norm/hard/elite to maximize xp. The casual gamer who relies on pugs will be brought into the same elite quests as the uberplayers and be made to feel useless (which results in sub cancellations). The alternative is they won't find many groups...

You've been reading my mind... QFT.

[Emili]

I'm sorry that's how you feel. You have interjected the pejorative "idiot" etc. into the discussion - not I.

Think of it this way: For the game to succeed, it needs to be as inclusive as possible.

There are many "elite" players. I'm far from an "elite" gamer, btw - go play an FPS and learn what having elite twitch skills means.

Back to the point - by having an "elite" setting, you're giving those who enjoy a harder challenge something to do. By making "normal" easier, you're helping out those who struggle. And by making Hard a good solid challenge, you're catering to the average player who's been at it awhile.

The alternative is to make Elite really mean little, and be the default setting. That's not terribly elite, is it? Were you around pre-Mod5 when everyone was screaming about how easy the game was??? Droves of players left out of boredom.

As for those who run elite and it takes them 4 hours .... ??? How can that be a design issue. MT I'm looking at your friend here. Would you feel bad for a group of level 10s who struggle through Running With the Devils on Elite? Of course not.

More variety = good. Less variety = bad. Complaining that someone else can (or can't) do something you can = bad.

My largest problem with these changes is that I have to be more picky about who I invite to groups... as it stands when I walk up to a dungeon and I have the option to run elite - my own inclination is to run elite - I turn and ask the group however and put weight on what the divine casters care for... because it's typically thier mana/resource management who make or break the quests... by increasing the trap DC it now may be that I have to put more weight on another opinion - the rogue. By and large I try to play with as many players as I can, I'm not here to discriminate, but when I enter an elite quest I do not want to hear people complain or drag them kicking and screaming after the first few fights... I do not wish to have to hear people tout what a pain this is or how they feel completely overwhelmed and then drop on me leaving me to have to replace them mid quest. Then I find myself looking to add another team member ... one who's going to gripe about late penalties or missing chests priorly opened, and about how it's not even worth thier time by then. My largest problem with this issue is that should they wanted elite to actually mean something they really should have went beyond the call and right sized the entire dungeon... not just a few trap DC's.

[redoubt]

I'm sorry that's how you feel. You have interjected the pejorative "idiot" etc. into the discussion - not I.

Yes, that is a word I selected. As another said, "Klutzes" might be a better word, though still not one you used. They are simply words that can be infered from the tone of posts claiming eliite is for the elite.

Think of it this way: For the game to succeed, it needs to be as inclusive as possible.

Absolutely! But... tell me... how is increasing the Trap save DCs to fit only one build inclusive? How is making 33% of the content only playable by 5% of the players inclusive?

There are many "elite" players. I'm far from an "elite" gamer, btw - go play an FPS and learn what having elite twitch skills means.

I could, but I'm more interested in the combination of design, creation and play that you get from a game like DDO. I like designing a character to have a certain skill set to overcome specific obstacles. I'm not, personally, interested in perfecting my twitch game skills. I have two small children, keeping them out of trouble provides all the twichy-ness I need!

Back to the point - by having an "elite" setting, you're giving those who enjoy a harder challenge something to do. By making "normal" easier, you're helping out those who struggle. And by making Hard a good solid challenge, you're catering to the average player who's been at it awhile.

There are many things that can be done to increase difficulty without requiring a competely different style of play.

The alternative is to make Elite really mean little, and be the default setting. That's not terribly elite, is it? Were you around pre-Mod5 when everyone was screaming about how easy the game was??? Droves of players left out of boredom.

I've played for two years. The boredom was not just difficulty settings. The players who live for games will always be bored. They will play this game for a few weeks and wear it out and play another to exhaustion. Then come back here when something new happens. The game should not be designed around this small group of people (just my opinion.) I think elite could have better monster AI (like a chess game where you adjust the computers intelligence.) Elite could have random trap locations (not requiring insane saves, but still requiring extra caution.) Elite could have additional objectives like bringing Coyle along on running with the Devils (now that would be a real challenge.) Feel free to add you own...

As for those who run elite and it takes them 4 hours .... ??? How can that be a design issue. MT I'm looking at your friend here. Would you feel bad for a group of level 10s who struggle through Running With the Devils on Elite? Of course not.

Not at all, 99% of all level 10s have zero business in Running with the Devils even on normal. I remember inferno taking hours until I learned my way around. Its both good and bad. Same problem with Coalesence. Making it a little longer or harder is good, but sometimes is just frustrating instead. I admit, it is a hard balance to get right.

More variety = good. Less variety = bad. Complaining that someone else can (or can't) do something you can = bad.

Again, we agree. However, I see the new trap DCs as reducing variety, thus bad. On the complaining part, I'm not compaining that someone else can do what I can. It bother me zero that a cleric can banish when I'm running my sorc around the vale. It bothers me not that other people can run proof is in the poision on elite at level one when I wait until level 8.

What does happen is some "elite" people get upset that players not considered "uber" enought to be "elite" get the same favor total as the "elites". Or happen to get lucky and get a highly sought after quest reward when it should be reserved for the "elites." These "elite" people come to the forums and ask for more than just increased challenge. Many are asking for exclusivity.

If that is not what you are asking for, then I will appologize.

The trap DCs are pushing, in my opinion, too far toward exclusivity rather than increasing overall difficulty. They have also wrecked a large number of solid builds in a way the the change to evasion and armor did. The difference is that people should have seen the evasion change coming. The PnP guys warned us. On this trap thing... its my understaning that the skills and the reflex save were working as intended. The damage was just a little low. Why not put the saves back where they were and leave the damage up high enough maim or kill if the trap is not disable or saved against?

[Pellegro]

Why not put the saves back where they were and leave the damage up high enough maim or kill if the trap is not disable or saved against?

Thanks for a nice response.

I think your suggestion is a viable design alternative.

I don't know the DEVs or have any "insider" information, but perhaps they thought that approach would lead to everyone feeling like they had to splash 2 levels of rogue. Or that it was too easy for everyone to just ignore the traps and run through them.

Dunno ...

[CrazySamaritan]

Evasion is for Spells in general, only traps that use spells to deal damage should be affected by evasion.

The other problem that you are ignoring...again... is that the casual gamer can't just ignore the elite quests. Take a look at the postings sometimes, people either are doing norm (fine) or elite. They only do hard if they are trying to get elite and don't have an openner or if they are doing norm/hard/elite to maximize xp. The casual gamer who relies on pugs will be brought into the same elite quests as the uberplayers and be made to feel useless (which results in sub cancellations). The alternative is they won't find many groups...

The implication here is that the average PuG is being lead by an elite player....

[Pellegro]

My largest problem with these changes is that I have to be more picky about who I invite to groups...

[T]hey really should have went beyond the call and right sized the entire dungeon... not just a few trap DC's.

Fair issue, but isn't that inherent in the idea of having elite mean something?

If elite is to mean anything, it means that certain folks won't be able to run it. That's not the objective, of course, but it is an unfortunate side-effect of providing some sort of challenge for those who look for it.

As for rampign up the entire dungeon - I agree. But that's a very difficult line to tweak. I kind of like the way they seem to be doing it now - giving us select dungeons that are real buttkickers on elite, and keeping the others relatively doable on elite as long as you know the quest, have the right load-out and class composition, etc.

Can't please everyone I suppose ...

[Raithe]

Evasion is for Spells in general, only traps that use spells to deal damage should be affected by evasion.

Evasion works on everything that requires a reflex save for reduced damage. It's right in the description. Traps obviously have a reflex save, because there would be no point to Trap Sense if they didn't.

[MysticTheurge]

Evasion is for Spells in general, only traps that use spells to deal damage should be affected by evasion.

This is not true at all. Raithe is correct. It works on anything that offers a reflex save for reduced damage.

[EspyLacopa]

Evasion is for Spells in general, only traps that use spells to deal damage should be affected by evasion.

err, no, that's not how Evasion works.

At 2nd level and higher, a rogue can avoid even magical and unusual attacks with great agility. If she makes a successful Reflex saving throw against an attack that normally deals half damage on a successful save, she instead takes no damage.

Note how it says nothing about Magic or the source of the damage. Merely that it's half damage on a successful reflex save.

[CrazySamaritan]

Note how it says nothing about Magic or the source of the damage. Merely that it's half damage on a successful reflex save.

Woah!
Tripple put-down. That'll teach me not to talk out my & and not check the SRD, again.





(okay, maybe for an hour)

[Lorien_the_First_One]

The implication here is that the average PuG is being lead by an elite player....

Well close...what I was trying to say was that by virtue of the fact they are on more the power gamer & other gamers who spend a lot of tiem in game are more likely to make up the majority of the party. That means they will start more groups, and you will likely need more of them to fill out any groups you start. Even if you post for hard, when you get to the door and someone says "I can open elite" and the rest of the group says "ya lets do that" it doesn't matter much what your original posting said, the group has spoken...