Lightning room in the Pit on Elite

[mgoldb2]

Very difficult to follow. Let's get a little specific to help things out...

So why would a group of elite, experienced level 11s choose to do Stromvauld's Mine on elite (assuming they had done every quest in the game multiple times), instead of Trial by Fire on normal? I actually think Trial by Fire will be slightly more of a challenge for level 11s, even on normal, and the end rewards and chests are better.

Because it is fun. Otherwise there is no other reason. I don’t see a problem with that. My first char had stromvauld mine elite before there was favor in game. It was not for exp there was far better ways to get that. It was not for loot south 3, co6 or tempest would have been much better choices for that. It was just for fun.

Is it really that hard to find quests of the correct level for you that you need to run the same quest for 3 levels in a row?

Only level that I can thing of that it pretty much impossible to level up doing quests of your level on normal is 15-16 since there 2 level 15 quests in game only. That should be fixed but changing difficulty to do level 13-14 quests on hard/elite I would find a very disappointing solution.

Why do we not have "choose your quest level = choose your difficulty?"

Because quest level is what level the quest is design for and difficulty should be how hard the quest is for people of that level. I view them as completely different things.

Even in pnp I considered some campaigns design for let say 4-8 more difficult then another campaign design for 4-8.

[Shade]

Why would you put this in the game as such? Why wouldn't you have quests scale up by 2 levels, or maybe a percentage increase (like 10% hard, 20% elite)? Having difficulties scale up by 5 levels means no one is going to go back and run Redfang's on elite at level 10 except once for the favor (not to mention that Redfang's on elite scales really poorly for a level 10 character, who could probably solo it blindfolded).

He didn't mean it in pure levels. If elite simply scaled +2 levels, so a below-average casual player poorly equiped could simply level up twice and then complete any quest on elite was how it was - it would be a total joke to the real elite players, there would be no challenge, no excitiement, just another boring auto attack and go afk mmo. Elite players CAN indeed complete quests 5 or more levels above there own, often faster and better then a group of average players exactly at that level.

So it has to scale extremely or the risk versus the reward wouldn't be fair or fun. The Elite players would only do elite all the time regardless and thus rake in allot more xp and loot much much faster then your average player could, as he could now not only do quests 5 above his level, but 6, 7, 8 or more because of the lower scaling.

It's about skill much more so then character level.

[Zorlinta]

Anyway guys you already got the DM answers, Quest in elite should be destined to be really troublesome, so only possible choice we had is accept it or accept it. So if u dont know well the quest and you think may be troublesome, simply find other group that agree to run it on safer difficult.

[Raithe]

Because quest level is what level the quest is design for and difficulty should be how hard the quest is for people of that level. I view them as completely different things.

Ok, now we're really getting somewhere. So how is the difficulty, not level, of the quest scaled when it is set on elite? Do we get more encounters that are our level? Are traps more intricate? Are puzzles more complex? Do appropriate CR mobs move faster and use better tactics? Is the dungeon more confusing and require better tactics, better teamwork, and better twitch skill?

No.

The CR and DC of everything is increased, which basically increases the level of the dungeon. Not the difficulty, the level.

As I've been saying for well over a year now, elite should mean difficult for players, not more grind for characters. Apparently almost everyone but you has a problem with that distinction.

[swooshrp]

We are, of course, watching the effects of the trap DC changes and taking into consideration both the intended and unintended consequences of the change, and may end up adjusting them (and other things) in the future.

We're also investigating some changes to how the different difficulty settings are explained, to clear up some miscommunications. A group of level 4 characters may not be able to complete a level 2 dungeon on Elite - in general, the rewards go up by 2 levels on Elite, but the difficulties of challenges go up by around 5.

I understand the reasoning behind the change. While not the only reason, the inflated DC is an attempt to negate groups from "zerging" through the quest without a penalty for being hastily. I.E. bring a rogue, slow down, work as a group and it should go smoothly. There was a quest mechanic flaw (somewhat stemming from inflated hps that DDO has) that allows no recourse for rushing ahead.

I do think there still needs to be some adjusting here and there on DCs but elite is intended to be not on the norm (a CHALLENGE) SO then reward the ones that do complete the challenging quest with a significanct XP bonus for those that attempt to do so. Solo and normal settings got a boost, so should Elite (for reason of the scaling implemented)

IMO, what really needs to happen is a full scale readjustment of XP on all quests. Currently there are quests in-game that take no more than 15 mins to complete and net a large XP gain while another quest takes an hour and nets the same amount.

[Raithe]

If elite simply scaled +2 levels, so a below-average casual player poorly equiped could simply level up twice and then complete any quest on elite was how it was - it would be a total joke to the real elite players...

So, instead it's better if the average players can simply level up 5 times and complete any quest on elite?

Instead of that moronic setup, how bout let's let the super duper uber players run elite content 3 levels above them, scale the quests appropriately, and let the average players run the dungeons that are labelled for them? Sound good?

there would be no challenge, no excitiement, just another boring auto attack and go afk mmo. Elite players CAN indeed complete quests 5 or more levels above there own, often faster and better then a group of average players exactly at that level.

I would love to see an untwinked group of level 1's take out STK on normal (that's only four levels). Aside from getting in the door of the last stage of the quest, it should be a breeze for the uber player, right? Maybe you could make a video and post it for everyone to understand the difference between ubers and averages...

It's about skill much more so then character level.

Personally, I think elite is all about expense, higher loot, and aggravation and doesn't have an iota of increased difficulty for players. Maybe our client programs are playing different games?

[Angelus_dead]

We're also investigating some changes to how the different difficulty settings are explained, to clear up some miscommunications. A group of level 4 characters may not be able to complete a level 2 dungeon on Elite - in general, the rewards go up by 2 levels on Elite, but the difficulties of challenges go up by around 5.

But if you're in an elite quest with a trap, you'd have to go 11 or 12 levels higher to find a normal trap that's equally dangerous

Let me make that painfully clear:
VON5 Normal (level 10 + 0)
(Combat): You attempt to save versus trap:slash. You roll a 2 (+27): save!

Sewer Rescue Elite (level 1 + 2)
(Combat): You attempt to save versus trap:slash. You roll a 3 (+27): save!
(Combat): You attempt to save versus trap:slash. You roll a 2 (+27): save failure!
(Combat): You suffer 50 points of damage from Trap:Slash.



Why is the trap scaling so much stronger than the monster scaling? It's funny that for something like Dead Shall Rise or Enemy Within, setting it to elite makes trap survival THE threat of the quest. Fighting the monsters is an irrelevant afterthought compared to the danger of the traps.

[Kaldaka]

Why is the trap scaling so much stronger than the monster scaling? It's funny that for something like Dead Shall Rise or Enemy Within, setting it to elite makes trap survival THE threat of the quest. Fighting the monsters is an irrelevant afterthought compared to the danger of the traps.

QFT!!

This is a wonderful statement that absolutely captures the essence of my argument in the OP.

There are two problems here: One is the imbalance of the scaling of mosters versus trap DCs on elite. The second is that it is almost impossible to avoid the trap in the OP unless you are as stated by Riggs:

Fast twitch players who know all the quests by heart can dodge traps usually. (I am not fast twitch). So these changes dont really affect people who are really, really good. They do REALLY punish average players, or players who dont know every single trap in the game.

These two quotes are exactly my gripe over the high trap save DCs on elite.

[Pellegro]

Fast twitch players who know all the quests by heart can dodge traps usually. (I am not fast twitch). So these changes dont really affect people who are really, really good. They do REALLY punish average players, or players who dont know every single trap in the game.

And these are the people that the ELITE setting is for.

I don't know how to say this other than to be blunt. Even with the new "elite" scaling, the quests are quite easy on ELITE even if run when you're the level of NORMAL. This is a function of knowing the quest inside out, having skills, and being twinked, etc.

The argument "but there's no reward for the risk" misses the boat. There *is* a reward. You've done it on elite. You also got Level+2 experience. If you prefer to skip taht and do higher level quests on normal or hard for better "risk to reward" - then great - go for it. But I am certain plenty of folks will continue to run nearly everything on elite because they enjoy feeling elite and enjoy the challenge.

That's what elite is for. Its for those folks. And they're *still* running elite.

If you are not one of those folks, then on a level 5 quest, wait until you're level 10 to run it on elite. Or don't ever run it on elite. So waht? Its the same quest, jump ramped up on difficulty. For those who want the challenge to pickup the extra XP, its there. If you don't, then don't!

Favor is a real concern, but has been addressed. You can easily hit 1750 with little recourse to elite. If by level 10, you can't do levels 1-4 on elite then there's some other issue lurking.

There is an additional bonus .... for a casual player who is learning the game, they may try elite and get smashed. So they pick themselves up, level up more, etc. .... A few months later when they're 5 levels higher, they can go back adn redo it on elite. Its fresh again because they've forgotten it. Its a way to space out the consumption of a finite number of quests.

I think its a fantastic development philosophy and I applaud them for going in this direction. I think it is also fantastic that they are going the opposite direction as well - making normal easier. This makes the game more friendly for newbies and casuals.

Now if we could just get them to put Green Steel Rapiers in ....

[Raithe]

And these are the people that the ELITE setting is for.

I don't know how to say this other than to be blunt. Even with the new "elite" scaling, the quests are quite easy on ELITE even if run when you're the level of NORMAL. This is a function of knowing the quest inside out, having skills, and being twinked, etc.

The argument "but there's no reward for the risk" misses the boat. There *is* a reward. You've done it on elite. You also got Level+2 experience. If you prefer to skip taht and do higher level quests on normal or hard for better "risk to reward" - then great - go for it. But I am certain plenty of folks will continue to run nearly everything on elite because they enjoy feeling elite and enjoy the challenge.

That's what elite is for. Its for those folks. And they're *still* running elite.

If you are not one of those folks, then on a level 5 quest, wait until you're level 10 to run it on elite. Or don't ever run it on elite. So waht? Its the same quest, jump ramped up on difficulty. For those who want the challenge to pickup the extra XP, its there. If you don't, then don't!

Favor is a real concern, but has been addressed. You can easily hit 1750 with little recourse to elite. If by level 10, you can't do levels 1-4 on elite then there's some other issue lurking.

There is an additional bonus .... for a casual player who is learning the game, they may try elite and get smashed. So they pick themselves up, level up more, etc. .... A few months later when they're 5 levels higher, they can go back adn redo it on elite. Its fresh again because they've forgotten it. Its a way to space out the consumption of a finite number of quests.

I think its a fantastic development philosophy and I applaud them for going in this direction. I think it is also fantastic that they are going the opposite direction as well - making normal easier. This makes the game more friendly for newbies and casuals.

Now if we could just get them to put Green Steel Rapiers in ....

Elite is easy, but its actually difficult. Knowing the quest is more important than playing quests dynamically. Casual players can go back and repeat a quest on elite they've already done (at a net total of 20% xp bonus), which will be fresher than simply running a higher level quest that they haven't (at a net total of 25% xp bonus). Green steel rapiers are a more important topic than the scaling and balancing of quests.

Did I miss anything?

[Wildseed]

the trap DCs are outta whack. In an attempt to make rogue splashes fail they have gone over and beyond and made the traps too hard for a group of that level to complete. I tried to do this with 16s and 13/1 wizard/rogue. 2 failures and she was dead. 2 failures and another lvl 16 15 sorc/1 bard was dead too. Within seconds. There is something wrong with that. We know the quest. However the lightning trap cannot be avoided and must be stood in to complete the quest. Yet they want death to be painful... then they make death unavoidable... huh?? sorry I don't get it, do you or don't you want us to die??

[Vormaerin]

The lightning trap DOES NOT need to be stood in to be completed. It is HARD to avoid the lightning, but not impossible.

Its obvious the Devs want to make Elite into a real "Elite" mode now that there is enough favor in the game that folks don't need to play elite to get the rewards. The trap DCs are part of it, the "super crazy ramp up" that's supposed to apply to mod 6 elite quests is another part. Why does everyone think they have to be able to play on elite? Lots of games have difficulty levels that are excessive compared to the rewards. Hardcore in Diablo2, that elite mode for Icewind Dale (Heart of winter, IIRC?) You play them because you want the game to be harder and don't care that the rewards aren't scaling equivalently. If you don't like that kind of thing, or you are like me and don't have hardware/reflexes/whatever to do it consistently, then play on normal and hard.

Oh, and I don't know why folks are talking about lvl 10s in Redfang. That's a level 3 quest. Even at +5 difficulty, that's only lvl 8.

[redoubt]

As has been mentioned in other threads, the issue is that sclaing is not linear, and is punishing rogues - who are already gimped by the differences between paper and online play.

On elite - a level 5 fighter in a level 3 quest can still hit things, kill things, and as long as they are not playing stupid - not get killed. A level 5 rogue in a level 3 quest on elite is GOING to fail jumping through a trap, and very likely die. As has been mentioned in other posts, level 16 rogues in level 7 quests are having problems making rolls. And most newer trap boxes are near or past traps, so unless someone has been through a quest a bunch of times and has memorized all the locations - they are often going to be relying on evasion to survive.

If the logic is that NO ONE except for super elite halfling rogue/pally builds can hope to make saves....then by the same logic almost no fighter should be able to even hit monsters on elite. Or survive 2 hits. Only super elite players with the very best raid gear survive a fight, everyone else dies in the first group of monsters. Thats basically the same thing.

Fast twitch players who know all the quests by heart can dodge traps usually. (I am not fast twitch). So these changes dont really affect people who are really, really good. They do REALLY punish average players, or players who dont know every single trap in the game.

The debate whether elite is the default setting has been around for a while. While on ond hand it can be asserted that elite is only for special players, special occasions, or people looking for extra challenges. However all the rewards in the game you can only get from elite quests.

Favor was added in part to address the fact that many quests give extremely poor xp for their level, and so no one ran them. But favor rewards, require you to run everything on elite. You will not get 2 extra bank slots just running House K quests on normal. You will not get returning +3 arrows just doing things on normal. etc.

Loot - there are only a couple ways to advance your character. XP, gear, favor. XP is better on elite. And given the -6 or more levels of what drops vs the quest level, the only way to get the best treasure is to run elite quests.

The game has been designed, and increasingly so with new changes over time - to only give you the best options if you run things on elite.

If a fighter can kill monsters on elite at the appropriate level, and a wizard can cast spells on monsters on elite - then rogues - at the appropirate level - should be able to use their class skills and have them work fairly often. That is no longer the case. And if the rogue is expected to jump through a trap to disarm the box on the far side, and is going to die most of the time - then rogues are being disadvantaged over other classes.

The debate is not whether elite should be harder than normal. It already is. the debate is that one particualar class has suddenly been severely affected negatively over what other classes face in the same quest.

A very well thought out and reasoned statement. I had not thought of the comparison to the other classes, but it does make a lot of sense.

[redoubt]

And these are the people that the ELITE setting is for.

I don't know how to say this other than to be blunt. Even with the new "elite" scaling, the quests are quite easy on ELITE even if run when you're the level of NORMAL. This is a function of knowing the quest inside out, having skills, and being twinked, etc.

The argument "but there's no reward for the risk" misses the boat. There *is* a reward. You've done it on elite. You also got Level+2 experience. If you prefer to skip taht and do higher level quests on normal or hard for better "risk to reward" - then great - go for it. But I am certain plenty of folks will continue to run nearly everything on elite because they enjoy feeling elite and enjoy the challenge.

That's what elite is for. Its for those folks. And they're *still* running elite.

If you are not one of those folks, then on a level 5 quest, wait until you're level 10 to run it on elite. Or don't ever run it on elite. So waht? Its the same quest, jump ramped up on difficulty. For those who want the challenge to pickup the extra XP, its there. If you don't, then don't!

Favor is a real concern, but has been addressed. You can easily hit 1750 with little recourse to elite. If by level 10, you can't do levels 1-4 on elite then there's some other issue lurking.

There is an additional bonus .... for a casual player who is learning the game, they may try elite and get smashed. So they pick themselves up, level up more, etc. .... A few months later when they're 5 levels higher, they can go back adn redo it on elite. Its fresh again because they've forgotten it. Its a way to space out the consumption of a finite number of quests.

I think its a fantastic development philosophy and I applaud them for going in this direction. I think it is also fantastic that they are going the opposite direction as well - making normal easier. This makes the game more friendly for newbies and casuals.

Now if we could just get them to put Green Steel Rapiers in ....

I'm hoping that I am misunderstanding your post (and Shade's for that matter). What I'm hearing is:

"I'm glad they are making normal easier, because most of you are idiots. I'm also glad that elite is getting harder, because I need a place where only me and shade can play and look cool and better than the rest of you idiots."

Really, I don't care if elite is made harder. But don't just scale the traps and don't make it a twitch game. Let our characters' skills be worth something.

You want a real challenge? Lead a pug of people who have not done a quest through one. Don't do it for them. Lead them. Sure you are superman, but can you get your team through too?

Want another challenge? Go join the perma death guys.

And ... nvm... I'm too tired of the elitist junk.

[Vormaerin]

I think you understand Shade's post quite well, though you might generously replace "idiots" with a somewhat less perjorative like "klutzes" or something. You've completely misunderstood Raithe, who is wrathfully opposed to the whole change in DCs and damage.

I'm not a twitch player, far from it. But I do think that the devs have intentionally added these "computer gaming" features to DDO and are knowingly making them preeminent in elite. You can make characters that meet the DCs of even the nastiest traps in the game at the moment. Its just that few of us would want to play that character, so timing/mouse movement skills and quest knowledge are the best way to approach elite traps at the current time.

[Snoggy]

Rea;;y? Because if I remember right you set one of the most important goals of the game up so that playing at Elite is REQUIRED.

No, you don't HAVE to attain 32 pt builds... but I'll be damned if you didn't make the road long and perilous.

Couldn't you maybe consider Drow the "normal/hard" equivalent of the 32 point build? And thus 400 favor reward the not-so-elite equivalent?

[MysticTheurge]

We do think that Elite shouldn't be considered the default difficulty for quests, but should be selected when people are looking for an exceptional challenge.

You've also created a system where 6 people all have to agree on what difficulty they're going to do, and you've provided the best rewards on the elite setting.

I had a friend, who I finally coerced into resubscribing, almost ready to quit last night because his PUG decided they wanted to try Let Sleeping Dust Lie on Elite, clearly unaware of the extent of their own capabilities. It took him 4+ hours because several people also insisted on constantly recalling to Meridia for SPs.

Now I understand that Elite isn't supposed to be easy, but there's more stuff going on here than just "not the default setting." If, in fact, elite is simply intended to be there for people who want a "above and beyond the call of duty" challenge, why not flatten out all the rewards (or at the very least the loot) so elite isn't sitting out there as a tantalizing forbidden fruit of better rewards?

[Snoggy]

but it's also understandable to nerf instead of buff, here's why:

raising the difficulty of certain game play is

Uh ... Raising the difficulty of the traps is a buff. The trap DCs got buffed. Not nerfed.

Nerf toys are easier to play with. The connotation of nerf usually means having something toned down. On the developer side of things, it's usually having encounters made easier. On the player-side of things it's usually having their characters made weaker.

I don't really see how the word nerf fits all that well into this change, considering how dramatically the trap DCs got ... uh ... "buffed."

[Vormaerin]

why not flatten out all the rewards (or at the very least the loot) so elite isn't sitting out there as a tantalizing forbidden fruit of better rewards?

That's not a bad idea, but strictly speaking the devs seem to think that while there are better rewards on elite they are not scaled up to the same degree as the difficulty is. The scaling of elite is rather uneven,, though, so in some cases a quest is MUCH harder on elite while in other cases its only a little bit harder. (Or, in the case of the 2nd of Baudry's quests, its not harder at all :P ).

The core problem is that the devs have not been enforcing this mindset all along. In fact, until ,mod 5 or 6, it was rather the oppposite since you needed substantial numbers of elite quests to get the uber favor reward.

[Raithe]

You've completely misunderstood Raithe, who is wrathfully opposed to the whole change in DCs and damage.

I am not against damage increases. I probably wouldn't have bothered (I seldom if ever saw people ignore traps on elite), but I am ok with them. The DCs are what I am strongly against.

And, redoubt was actually talking to Pellegro (and Shade), not me.