Lightning room in the Pit on Elite

[Kaldaka]

Come on devs, this one is a little rough to take.

Went in with a evasion pally build in party (halfling 7 pally/ 2 rogue). At level 9 (the level of the quest on elite), he has a buffed reflex save of in mid 30s. He died at least 5 times in that **** room. I think we determined that it was a 42 modified die roll reflex save on a level 9 quest to make the save, don't you think that is a little extreme??

Its not like there are any **** trap boxes to disable the lightning, you are guaranteed to get hit multiple times by the lightning, and it is a REQUIRED part of the quest to do the lightning room. Seems pretty rough to me.

[Shrazkil]

Hmm, well save aside, this sounds like a stupidity problem, and not a developer one.

It is quite easy to avoid the lightning and pull the levers, just work your way around the outside, and time your inside pulls with the lightning bursts. Combine that with having electric resist and protect, and you should never die. I have soloed the pit on elite with a 10 bard, only dying when there was a mistimed charm break by my warlord army.

[redoubt]

Does that mean the only way you should be able to play DDO is to "metagame" and memorize all the quests?

I am having difficulty with this concept. I mean if its all about getting the perfect buff and jumping to spot 1 to spot 2 to spot 3 why do we need saves at all? Why doesn't my rogue with very high search, spot, and disable skills see this "safe" path and take it despite any limits in my metagaming or twitch skills or current latency?

If I could make take an action such as search or spot or disable or "find safe path/spot" and rolls would be made against one or more of those skills causing a path or spot to glow like the trap boxes do when we find them... well I think that would be cool. For example I'm sneaking along a new dungeon and my "danger sense" goes off. I put on all my search gear and identify the trap and control box. I can see that the control box is on the floor in the middle of the trap. Now that its found, I put my spot gear back on and click the "spot safe spot" button which using my spot skill. A small area to the left and behind the trap box glows. Then I put on my disable gear, jump spell and hop over to the safe spot. Whack!!! I get hit by the trap anyway (failed my spot safe spot check). I jump back out of the trap. So I try to spot the safe spot again. A different spot lights up when I get a better roll and I jump in and safely begin to disarm the trap.

[Raithe]

Does that mean the only way you should be able to play DDO is to "metagame" and memorize all the quests?

It was the original philosophy for the game. Sadly, despite miserable failure, that philosophy hasn't changed at all.

It's more than just funny that roleplaying and imaginative quests were considered the "optional" parts of D&D.

[Ranmaru2]

I went on a Muck Doom run last night after reading the "traps" thread already in Development Discussion here with my lvl 16 caster. I didn't die once in that room and determined the lightning damage was only increased about 30%, from high 50s - mid 60s to mid 70s to high 80s (with resistances which you'd be a dolt to go into the room without). Aside from a few switches you have to be standing in the right spots in order to not get shocked by lightning I had no problem pulling switches in the room.

Also, the Force Blasts were only increased about 20% as well. Got hit for 65 from one and they only hit for about 40-55 before. Besides WANTING to be hit by them, I was never hit by another force blast during my navigating of the pit. These "traps" are not really a problem at all.

Try and make the argument that I'm not "level" appropriate and that's the true test, but my reflex is 21-23 depending if I have a high level paly nearby. It isn't godly, but it's still good enough for me. The traps aren't as whackedout as you're all making them out to be.

For the electric room, cleric should be spamming protection on whoever happens to lose their protection from standing in the wrong spot as well as making sure everyone has their resist electricity up. Don't stand by the Blue Dots on the pillars as that's mostly where the lightning arcs the most.

[Shrazkil]

Does that mean the only way you should be able to play DDO is to "metagame" and memorize all the quests?

I am having difficulty with this concept. I mean if its all about getting the perfect buff and jumping to spot 1 to spot 2 to spot 3 why do we need saves at all? Why doesn't my rogue with very high search, spot, and disable skills see this "safe" path and take it despite any limits in my metagaming or twitch skills or current latency?

No, but it means that if you see a room with electric pulses coming from everywhere except the outside of pillars, and you need to pull lots of levers, you might want to go where the electric pulses aren't.

[Raithe]

Try and make the argument that I'm not "level" appropriate and that's the true test, but my reflex is 21-23 depending if I have a high level paly nearby. It isn't godly, but it's still good enough for me. The traps aren't as whackedout as you're all making them out to be.

Are you a new player? Are you a casual player? Do you like learning where safe spots are for things that should be entirely random (like lightning arcs)?

The people on the forums who are saying the DCs are "whackedout" are probably not concerned so much about their own characters as the characters with which they ultimately end up grouping. It's simply no fun to see new and extremely casual players die over and over again without any good reason for it.

[Eladrin]

Are you a new player? Are you a casual player?

Playing extremely difficult dungeons on Elite?

Elite difficulty is very much not intended to be the "default" difficulty setting for normal play.

[Jaywade]

Playing extremely difficult dungeons on Elite?

Elite difficulty is very much not intended to be the "default" difficulty setting for normal play.

I wan to say first that I've been playing this game for some time (april 06) and I I like this game and the folks I play with) ...your statement really doesn't sit well with me. You "need" to do a good portion of these quests on elite if you want to unlock 32 pt builds
now while lvl 7-10 toons should have a challage in a lvl 7 dungeon on elite (now a lvl 10 dungeon) but a capped toon ought to be no problems in there, but the DC now are so out of whack show me a lvl 7-10 w/ a reflex in the high 40's ....it's too high....the player base has seen this before...you (the dev's hinted that the abbot could be beaten without doing the puzzles and when folks firgue out how (quicken and mass heals) you guys got mad and totally changed the encounter, to the point where it is insanely hard for any grps to beat (this is very bad DM'ing IMO), now since the satrt of this game if you had evasion and a fairly high reflex save (lvl 1-6 8-16.. lvl 7-10 17-21 ...lvl 11 to 14 22-30's) you could expect to take no damage (which was a mistake on your part IMO) the problem now is you guys over-reacted (again IMO) and took traps to far the other way (talking about the reflex save I think the damage is fine BTW traps should punnished those that get bit by them).... it's almost like you guys (and girls) are saying "ohh yeah players take this" ..... the traps scale poorly and the saves are way out of wack...... you need to take another look at this

[Eladrin]

I wan to say first that I've been playing this game for some time (april 06) and I I like this game and the folks I play with) ...your statement really doesn't sit well with me. You "need" to do a good portion of these quests on elite if you want to unlock 32 pt builds

My quick(*) calculations indicate that if you do every quest on Hard, you should be around 1727 total favor, 1749 total favor once the Shroud starts reporting correctly.

Odds are, most people going for the 1750 unlock will actually end up doing many of the low level quests on Elite long before completing the Shroud on normal, let alone hard. Some quests are harder than others, though - The Pit is already considered rough by many people on the lower difficulty settings.

We do think that Elite shouldn't be considered the default difficulty for quests, but should be selected when people are looking for an exceptional challenge.


(*) They could be off a little, it's a quick calculation.

[bobbryan2]

Playing extremely difficult dungeons on Elite?

Elite difficulty is very much not intended to be the "default" difficulty setting for normal play.

Elite difficulty still has to scale. Being a difficult dungeon shouldn't give the devs a carte blanche to make whatever changes they want. Traps should get as hard as a quest 2 levels above the quest. Monsters should as well.

I realize that not every quest is going to scale perfectly... but just because you can't reach perfection doesn't mean you should jump off the deep end either.

Or because Butcher's Path is a harder base quest than Information is Key... should you just put a mind flayer in the end of Butcher's Path on elite?

I understand the desire for devs to not make decisions from the seat of their pants, and you're not going to tone the trap DCs down without knowing fully well that that's the path you want to take. If I were you guys, I'd be falling back on, 'we're reviewing the traps DCs right now to see if they're where we want them.' and not 'elite is supposed to be hard.'

[Raithe]

Playing extremely difficult dungeons on Elite?

It is not extremely difficult to roll a 6 on a regular die, 20 times in a row. It's simply a matter of perseverence and frustration.

I think we disagree on how difficult the elite dungeons of DDO really are...

[villainsimple]

Playing extremely difficult dungeons on Elite?

Elite difficulty is very much not intended to be the "default" difficulty setting for normal play.

Rea;;y? Because if I remember right you set one of the most important goals of the game up so that playing at Elite is REQUIRED.

No, you don't HAVE to attain 32 pt builds... but I'll be damned if you didn't make the road long and perilous.

[Raithe]

Elite difficulty is very much not intended to be the "default" difficulty setting for normal play.

Yet new players group with extremely experienced, twinked players all the time. Is that a no no?

[EspyLacopa]

should you just put a mind flayer in the end of Butcher's Path on elite?

Actually, a basic run of the mill Mind Flayer is CR8. vs lv4 characters, according to my DM Guide, it could work for a big boss fight against lv4 characters.

[QuantumFX]

The people on the forums who are saying the DCs are "whackedout" are probably not concerned so much about their own characters as the characters with which they ultimately end up grouping. It's simply no fun to see new and extremely casual players die over and over again without any good reason for it.

Not aimed directly at you Raithe. But, I've seen experienced players get ganked by this c***. Escalating Trap DCs does nothing (the emphasis is there for a reason) to help rogues.

- A high Search/Disable DC? Favors Rogue/Casters. Forces rogues to take expensive trapmonkey enhancements.

- High Save DCs? Favors Paladin and Barbarian multiclasses. Forces rogues to take Trap save enhancements that they didn't have the APs for in the first place.

How does this help make rogues a fun class to play?

[Eladrin]

I understand the desire for devs to not make decisions from the seat of their pants, and you're not going to tone the trap DCs down without knowing fully well that that's the path you want to take. If I were you guys, I'd be falling back on, 'we're reviewing the traps DCs right now to see if they're where we want them.' and not 'elite is supposed to be hard.'

We are, of course, watching the effects of the trap DC changes and taking into consideration both the intended and unintended consequences of the change, and may end up adjusting them (and other things) in the future.

We're also investigating some changes to how the different difficulty settings are explained, to clear up some miscommunications. A group of level 4 characters may not be able to complete a level 2 dungeon on Elite - in general, the rewards go up by 2 levels on Elite, but the difficulties of challenges go up by around 5.

[Eladrin]

Rea;;y? Because if I remember right you set one of the most important goals of the game up so that playing at Elite is REQUIRED.

No, you don't HAVE to attain 32 pt builds... but I'll be damned if you didn't make the road long and perilous.

There's a very large difference between playing a handful of dungeons that you feel that you can complete on Elite versus playing every dungeon on Elite.

[CrazySamaritan]

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/


Main Entry:
1nor·mal Listen to the pronunciation of 1normal
Pronunciation:
\ˈnȯr-məl\
Function:
adjective
Etymology:
Latin normalis, from norma
Date:
circa 1696

1: perpendicular; especially : perpendicular to a tangent at a point of tangency
2 a: according with, constituting, or not deviating from a norm, rule, or principle b: conforming to a type, standard, or regular pattern
3: occurring naturally <normal immunity>
4 a: of, relating to, or characterized by average intelligence or development b: free from mental disorder : sane
5 a: of a solution : having a concentration of one gram equivalent of solute per liter b: containing neither basic hydroxyl nor acid hydrogen <normal silver phosphate> c: not associated <normal molecules> d: having a straight-chain structure <normal pentane> <normal butyl alcohol>
6: of a subgroup : having the property that every coset produced by operating on the left by a given element is equal to the coset produced by operating on the right by the same element
7: relating to, involving, or being a normal curve or normal distribution <normal approximation to the binomial distribution>
8: of a matrix : having the property of commutativity under multiplication by the transpose of the matrix each of whose elements is a conjugate complex number with respect to the corresponding element of the given matrix



Main Entry:
2normal
Function:
noun
Date:
circa 1738

1 a: a normal line b: the portion of a normal line to a plane curve between the curve and the x-axis
2: one that is normal
3: a form or state regarded as the norm : standard


Main Entry:
1hard Listen to the pronunciation of 1hard
Pronunciation:
\ˈhärd\
Function:
adjective
Etymology:
Middle English, from Old English heard; akin to Old High German hart hard, Greek kratos strength
Date:
before 12th century

1 a: not easily penetrated : not easily yielding to pressure bof cheese : not capable of being spread : very firm
2 a: of liquor (1): having a harsh or acid taste (2): strongly alcoholic b: characterized by the presence of salts (as of calcium or magnesium) that prevent lathering with soap <hard water>
3 a: of or relating to radiation of relatively high penetrating power : having high energy <hard X rays> b: having or producing relatively great photographic contrast <a hard negative>
4 a: metallic as distinct from paper <hard money> b: of currency : convertible into gold : stable in value c: usable as currency <paid in hard cash> dof currency : readily acceptable in international trade e: being high and firm <hard prices>
5 a: firmly and closely twisted <hard yarns> b: having a smooth close napless finish <a hard worsted>
6 a: physically fit <in good hard condition> b: resistant to stress or disease c: free of weakness or defects
7 a (1): firm, definite <reached a hard agreement> (2): not speculative or conjectural : factual <hard evidence> (3): important or informative rather than sensational or entertaining <hard news> b: close, searching <gave a hard look> c: free from sentimentality or illusion : realistic <good hard sense> d: lacking in responsiveness : obdurate, unfeeling <a hard heart>
8 a (1): difficult to bear or endure <hard luck> <hard times> (2): oppressive, inequitable <sales taxes are hard on the poor> <a hard restriction> b (1): lacking consideration, compassion, or gentleness : callous <a hard greedy landlord> (2): incorrigible, tough <a hard gang> c (1): harsh, severe, or offensive in tendency or effect <said some hard things> (2): resentful <hard feelings> (3): strict, unrelenting <drives a hard bargain> d: inclement <hard winter> e (1): intense in force, manner, or degree <hard blows> (2): demanding the exertion of energy : calling for stamina and endurance <hard work> (3): performing or carrying on with great energy, intensity, or persistence <a hard worker> f: most unyielding or thoroughgoing <the hard political right>
9 a: characterized by sharp or harsh outline, rigid execution, and stiff drawing b: sharply defined : stark <hard shadows> c: lacking in shading, delicacy, or resonance <hard singing tones> d: sounding as in arcing and geese respectively —used of c and g e: suggestive of toughness or insensitivity <hard eyes>
10 a (1): difficult to accomplish or resolve : troublesome <hard problems> <the true story was hard to come by> (2): difficult to comprehend or explain <a hard concept> b: having difficulty in doing something <hard of hearing> c: difficult to magnetize or demagnetize
11: being at once addictive and gravely detrimental to health <such hard drugs as heroin>
12: resistant to biodegradation <hard detergents> <hard pesticides such as DDT>
13: being, schooled in, or using the methods of the natural sciences and especially of the physical sciences <a hard scientist>
14 of money : contributed (as by individuals or political action committees) directly to a particular candidate or campaign


Main Entry:
2hard
Function:
adverb
Date:
before 12th century

1 a: with great or utmost effort or energy : strenuously <were hard at work> <the children played hard> b: in a violent manner : fiercely c: to the full extent —usually used in nautical directions <steer hard aport> d: to an immoderate degree <hitting the bottle hard> e: in a searching, close, or concentrated manner <stared hard at me>
2 a: in such a manner as to cause hardship, difficulty, or pain b: with rancor, bitterness, or grief <took the defeat hard>
3: in a firm manner : tightly
4: to the point of hardness <frozen hard>
5: close in time or space <stands hard by the river>




Main Entry:
elite Listen to the pronunciation of elite Listen to the pronunciation of elite
Pronunciation:
\ā-ˈlēt, i-, ē-\
Function:
noun
Etymology:
French élite, from Old French eslite, from feminine of eslit, past participle of eslire to choose, from Latin eligere
Date:
1823

1 a: singular or plural in construction : the choice part : cream <the elite of the entertainment world> b: singular or plural in construction : the best of a class <superachievers who dominate the computer elite — Marilyn Chase> c: singular or plural in construction : the socially superior part of society <how the elite live — A P World> <how the French-speaking elite…was changing — Economist> d: a group of persons who by virtue of position or education exercise much power or influence <members of the ruling elite> <the intellectual elites of the country> e: a member of such an elite —usually used in plural <the elites …, pursuing their studies in Europe — Robert Wernick>
2: a typewriter type providing 12 characters to the linear inch
— elite adjective

Main Entry:
élite, élit·ism

chiefly British variant of elite, elitism


Normal: What is expected.
Hard: More difficult, supposed to be a larger drain on resources.
Elite: The worst that the Developers can throw at you; The biggest, baddest versions of the monsters, designed to be the toughest possible.

Yes, you're expected to have done a quest at least two times, so you know what you're doing, before you enter a quest on elite. This is by design.

[Raithe]

2: a typewriter type providing 12 characters to the linear inch

Now, see, this is what I thought they meant by elite. I thought the DM text was spaced a little closer together...