Why is my pure rogue worse than a splash?

[sumnz]

I dont understand if I just built my rogue wrong or splashing for versatility is necessary, but I get outclassed it seems in alot of situations by splash rogues. Last night my 13 rogue couldnt stand in the traps on hard in VoN5 to open the big wheel, but a 8 fighter 2 rogue 2 paladin with something like 14 more reflex did just fine and opened it. Same with rainbow in the dark, looking for the lightning box trap with a 30 int buffed and 13 search item couldnt find it, 12 ranger 2 paladin 2 rogue finds it, with 10 less int, because he has a +10 spot spell (i had to lend him my search goggles, his were 10). Now my DD was higher than both of theirs, but if I cant do the other 2 parts of my job (finding the hard traps, and standing in the occasional one where you have to) why make a pure rogue instead of a splash.

This is not a comparison of meelee damage to these 2 other classes, whom I almost match outside of constructs and undead. Any pure rogues wish they had 2 levels of paladin for easier saves or some ranger levels for the nice spot spell?

[krud]

more info please. post your stats and maybe we can help. simply throwing another class on top of what you have probly won't work either. I like to multiclass, but I don't splash just for saves or one spell. I like to get multiple uses out of any MC.

[sumnz]

stats with items equipped

dark elf 13th rogue
Str 16
Dex 30
Con 18
Int 26
Wis 12
Chr 14

All rogue skilles maxed, have rogue skill boost 1, usually a heroism pot if no g heroism in party, and my items are search 13, dd 11, spot 10, open lock 10. Started with max int, but only an 18 dex. Other stats suffered somewhat.

[sigtrent]

Well.. paladin levels will definately help with reflex saving throws. You might consider taking the enhancements that help with trap saving throws if you want to make up some of the difference, and make sure you have a resistance item or other reflex save bonus item like the ever avialable trap blast goggles.

I'm told there is a place you can stand int he von 5 trap and disarm it wihout making saves although I've not done that one myself. Reflex saves on hard/elite jumped a lot lately giving value to those pally/rogue combos.

If you post build specifics and such I'm sure folks can find ways to help shore up what you are having issues with.

As to the general question... multi classing is all about studying the game rules and finding class combinations that enhace each other while eshewing abbilities you arn't as interested in.

A pure rouge has three main advantages.
1. Sneak attack damage
2. Access to higher level enhancements for skills etc...
3. A huge pool of skill points

Multi class rogues have to make trade offs
1. Trade sneak attack damage for feats or better BAB or combat bonuses from other classes. generaly this leads to a bit less damage but more accuracy and survivability.
2. Trade a lot of skill points for other class features. For instance the pally rogue trades skill points for a big save bonus and some immunity. A fighter rogue trades skills for combat feats and weapon use.

Combo with ranger doesn't really sacrifice many skill points (4-6 per level) so its a popular mix and easy to pull off. Paladin is a big drop in skills but you only need two levels of it for a very strong effect.

With 30 int and pure rogue you likely have stealht skills, balance, jump, haggle diplomacy, bluff and so on all pretty much maxed out. Those multi rogues don't have that stuff, they gave it up to keep take other classes for more combat skills or focused buffs etc... They focused their characters to do specific things.

[sigtrent]

All rogue skilles maxed, have rogue skill boost 1, usually a heroism pot if no g heroism in party, and my items are search 13, dd 11, spot 10, open lock 10. Started with max int, but only an 18 dex. Other stats suffered somewhat.

Your stats and skills seem fine for doing traps. I'd even say they are overkill. Your items are a little weaker than they could be but certainly not shabby. If you check the AH frequently you can probably find slightly better gear on the cheap.

They are going to make the trap reflex save bonus enhancmeent better, you may consider taking 3 ranks in that as it would be +6 to reflex saves which would definately help you out. Even the +3 you could get now might be worth while witht he way traps are these days. I usualy have one rank in it to get way of the mechanic. since you kind of min/maxed stats I'd wager you did the same with enhancements which may not be the best move. With rogues I tend to spread out my points to get the most bang for my buck.

[Aesop]

Do you have a resistance item?

Though Divine Grace Paladin Class Feature is probably where the biggest difference comens from... they also gain another +1 from their Aura. so depending on their Charisma that could be +4-+8 difference. With a Kardins Eye or some other Resistance item they up it another couple of notches. They could also have the Paladin Save Boost... only +2 at that level but hey it could happen.

did you use Improved Uncanny Dodge? That will net you a +6 he doesn't have.

Aesop

[GuitarHero]

If you are just building your rogue for trapsmithing, it IS likely you will be outshined many times by splash builds. For a viable trapsmith, you really only need 1 (maybe 2) level of rogue. Rogues are a DPS class, dispite common misinformation. If you want to prove your worth, let those splashes handle the traps, and you handle your blade.

But to offer insight:
the fighter/rogue/pally likely had a large charisma bonus, adding to his saves quite a bit, and also probably had a feat or two to spare for lightening reflexes. If it makes you feel better though, you probably hit harder than he does.
The ranger/pally/rogue was probably in the same boat, though made up for the lack of feats with a naturally high dex bonus.

[krud]

Another option is staying rogue and using a feat on resilience, provided you can get your base con to 13 (it might be worth the price of a con tome). Look for a better spot item if your trap sensors aren't going off. Make sure you get a +4 resistance item, or if you can't, then farm whatever quest chain it is that gets you the trapblast goggles (WW, STK?). Swap out your stat item for the relevant skill just like you do your skill items, e.g keep wisdom item/spot item on until you sense trap, switch search item/int item to search, then swap in trapblast goggles and a parrying weapon when you need to run thru them. Heroism pot + haste pot + parrying weapon is a +4 self buff to your reflex save. Resilience should be +5. Also, spend AP on improved trap sense enhancement. You should be able to spend at a minimum 3AP for +2 to trap saves. Don't forget your rogue gets an automatic +4 reflex save in traps (+1 for every 3 levels)

[sumnz]

Thanks for the advice, mabye I am complaining about the differences too much, on non constructs and undead I do tend to do well with backstab damage and points to make them give me less agro. I guess if I wanted I could respec and get those trap saves, and next patch there suposed to double the save bonus to 2 4 and 6 which in my opinion is much more of a deal.

Any cheap way for a guy to up his usefulness on undead and constructs without shelling out 20 mil gold for smiting and disruption (if there is such) rapiers? So far the only big 5 weapon I have pulled is a +1 staff of disruption....not the best in the game by a long shot.

[GuitarHero]

Thanks for the advice, mabye I am complaining about the differences too much, on non constructs and undead I do tend to do well with backstab damage and points to make them give me less agro. I guess if I wanted I could respec and get those trap saves, and next patch there suposed to double the save bonus to 2 4 and 6 which in my opinion is much more of a deal.

Any cheap way for a guy to up his usefulness on undead and constructs without shelling out 20 mil gold for smiting and disruption (if there is such) rapiers? So far the only big 5 weapon I have pulled is a +1 staff of disruption....not the best in the game by a long shot.

yes, besides the greater undead or greater construct banes, you have cursespewers, which are a major boon against those foes.

[krud]

Any cheap way for a guy to up his usefulness on undead and constructs without shelling out 20 mil gold for smiting and disruption (if there is such) rapiers? So far the only big 5 weapon I have pulled is a +1 staff of disruption....not the best in the game by a long shot.

Disruptors work on any hit (not just critical) so it's not necessary to have a high crit range weapon. Same with paralyzers. A paralyzing rapier paralyzes just as well as a club, unless you're an elf specced to use rapiers. I'm pretty cheap myself, so I look thru the AH for the less used weapons like maces, clubs, xbows, lt picks, etc. Xbows may be slow, but they have a crit range of 19-20, and are very cheap on the AH compared to other uber weapons. You can stand back and plunk away out of danger and rarely draw aggro. Plus you already have the dex to make good use of them.

[Zenako]

OK, a couple of quick points.

The Ranger Spell - Wild Instints adds +10 to SPOT only.

That will help you have an idea something is amiss. You need SEARCH skill to actually locate the traps and trap boxes.

Need to be sure to have the right geat on. A ranger has enhancements they can take for Spot and Search if they want as well.

I have a 12 Ranger/4 Rogue. I can handle a lot of the aspects of being a trap monkey quite well. But as my Ranger side takes over, I can rip into certain foes, with two weapons or bows.

At the end game you should have +13 gear for Spot/Search/Open and Disable. Search and Disable are the two most important ones to try and get the best gear you can find. +15 gear is now showing up fairly often.

Wear you both under Greater Heroism spells? that is a another +4 to skills, or did you both have Luck Items? another +1 or +2 to skill on top as well.

16 Level CHaracter.
Disable
19 ranks
13 item
4 CH
2 Luck
5+ Stat (INT)
7 tools

That is 52 right there without any enhancements or feats in the picture.

As for saves, the BEST combo pulls in enough Paly to boost stuff a whole lot, and sacrifices other things a pure rogue would get. No free lunches.

[MrWizard]

I dont understand if I just built my rogue wrong or splashing for versatility is necessary, but I get outclassed it seems in alot of situations by splash rogues. Last night my 13 rogue couldnt stand in the traps on hard in VoN5 to open the big wheel, but a 8 fighter 2 rogue 2 paladin with something like 14 more reflex did just fine and opened it. Same with rainbow in the dark, looking for the lightning box trap with a 30 int buffed and 13 search item couldnt find it, 12 ranger 2 paladin 2 rogue finds it, with 10 less int, because he has a +10 spot spell (i had to lend him my search goggles, his were 10). Now my DD was higher than both of theirs, but if I cant do the other 2 parts of my job (finding the hard traps, and standing in the occasional one where you have to) why make a pure rogue instead of a splash.

This is not a comparison of meelee damage to these 2 other classes, whom I almost match outside of constructs and undead. Any pure rogues wish they had 2 levels of paladin for easier saves or some ranger levels for the nice spot spell?

13 level verus 16 level in the rainbow dark....search has no roll, so you gotta have it...

you should get all the rogue boosts for +4 or human versatility for +5 instead.

at 13, your search should be 16 ranks, +10 for your intel, +13 googles, = 39

+2/4 for hero/GH
+1 to +5 boost
+1 to +4 enhance

43 to 52 not counting bard buffs. Use the find traps scroll for 1 or two more, or get a cleric to cast it on you for even more.

high search importatnt

[Chelsa]

I love my rogue and think pure is always better then multi classing.

Everything depends on your play style and in the long run you have to be happy with your build.

[issiana]

I love my rogue and think pure is always better then multi classing.

Everything depends on your play style and in the long run you have to be happy with your build.

from what i've seen those stats are great and you should have no trouble spotting / searching or disableing even while inside a trap. The only thing i can gues is that your enhancements and or equipment is sub par.

As for enhancements i only go to rank 3 in each lvl going to rank 4 costs way to many ap's for that extra +1. The exception to that is the trap saves line, as of the last mod maxing that line out is sort of needed now.

On equipment, friends are the best thing you can have. make it known you need stuff and hopefully they will passwhat they find on to you, otherwise its the auction house and bargin hunting.

Final note...... STAY PURE! DONT DESPAIR!

those of us who are pure rogues are a class apart. We have chosen the long lonely road of purity that is so hard many just opt for splashing as thats the "easy" way out it seems. WE can do so much if you put your mind to it and think outside the square. DPS, UMD casting/healing, TRAPS, SNEAKING, SUPPORT ROLES via SKILLS, heck i've even main tanked many a quest because my AC in robes was way more than the fighters we had, and i had improved evasion and the right equipment for the job.

Just dont think all you can do is traps. we can do lots more