The Zhaffini build: Extreme Dwarven Bard/Rogue TWFing action

[skraus1]

Well, with the easy availability of +2 tomes now in the new high level quests, I figured we should start making builds assuming them instead of simply assuming +1 tomes as we've done in the past. As +2 tomes partially relieve the MAD inherent in combat orientated bard/rogues, I figured this might be a good candidate for starting this trend.

Rogue/Bards need to have at least a 14 int (if non-human) to keep up open lock, disable device, search, UMD, and have enough perform to use their best songs. A 12 int means you have to have one skill not maxed at most levels, which probably means open lock as that is the easiest rogue skill to use and the most common one to have in groups.

Two weapon fighting means you need to have a 17 dex to get ITWF and GTWF. Together with the int requirments this generally led people to skimp on str or forgo two weapon fighting and use two handed weapons, as I did in my previous Zhaffy build. However, TWFfing has some advantages in the new mod, such as being able to vorpal mobs with 2000+ hp quickier and str based TWFing has some synergy with a bard's naturally already high to hit and damage output...along with a rogue's sneak attack bonuses.

Thus, Zhaffini was born

32 pt Dwarven Bard10/Fighter 2/Rogue 4

Tome version:
Str: 17 (+4 level ups)
Dex: 15 (+2 tome by level 9 for ITWF)
Con: 16
Wis: 8
Int: 11 (+1 tome at level 1)
Cha: 8

Non-+2Tome version
Str: 16 (+4 level ups)
Dex: 16 (+1 tome by level 9 for ITWF)
Con: 16
Wis: 8
Int: 11 (+1 tome at level 1)
Cha: 9

Progression
1 Rogue
2 Fighter
3-9 Bard
10 Rogue
11 Fighter
12 Bard
13 Rogue
14-15 Bard
16 Rogue
Feats
1: Toughness
2(Fighter): WF: slashing
3: power attack
6: Twfing
9: ITWFing
11(Fighter): IC: Slashing
12 Extend or IC pierce or OTWF
15: GTWF

Final BAB: 12
Final str: 17+ 4 levels +1 enhancement +6 item +2 rage+2 tome = 32
Final hp: 367+16hp (+2 tome)+16hp (rage)=399
Bard song: -1 to hit lower than a full non-warchanter bard with full song enhancements, same damage bonus.

Final Saves (with only gh and haste) without raid items or +2 tomes other than dex:
Fort: 25 (+1 rage)
Reflex: 29
Will: 21
+5 against spells
+2 against traps

Skills: DD, search, UMD can be easily maxed at every level if you would like. Perform (of which you only need 12 ranks at level 12, Open lock and Spot could be maxed in as well, as the 4 rogue levels (of which only 2 were expected at start) give enough skill points to keep it up at 16. As it is, I have 12 ranks of balance and fully maxed open lock.

Current Skills with +2 boost, FC, and GH and +1 skill enhancements:
DD: 51+7tools
Search: 50
UMD: up to 35 atm, should be able to reach an additional +3 (shroud)+1(head)+2(titan gloves) for a 41 total.
All of these skills are over the high water marks identified here. I have found and disabled everything except one uber elite giant hold trap, but only true trapmonkey rogues can do those anyway. All essential traps and the traps in the elite vale quests are no problem.

Of course this build is not made to cast any spell with a DC check and simply to have enough cha to cast their spells (i.e., cha 14 at cap). This build can cast all bard spells at every level except at bard 1 (level 3), at which time it can only have a 10 cha. As this level should last about 4 hrs, I'm not concerned about this in the slightest. The only other downside is that this character will need to have a +3 to +5 cha item on to cast all spells at level 16 depending on enhancements and tomes, given that if you only need a +1 or +2 item you can easily find that on greater resist items, and therefore save a item slot.

This build can replace a tank in most every quest, including elite vale. This build can tank the Pit Fiend in part 4 and 5. Through the songs, rage and great str it puts out nice damage AND can use all the nice proc weapons because it can take BOTH imporved crit pierce and slash.

I prefer this build to my Zhaffy build, but the Zhaffy builds still works very well and is functional as a 28 pt build

[EinarMal]

Looks good to me, pretty similiar to my TWF Bard/Rogue except I went Bard 12/Rogue 3/Fighter 1 for more skill points and a bit more sneak damage. My stats were a bit different being Drow vs. Dwarf, 16 str, 16 dex, 12 con, 14 int, 12 cha I think.

I would say spell points might be an issue, but those new green steel goggles/bracers would be great for this build if you don't mind grinding for them.

I think you need more hit points too squishy

If I had it to do over again I might just forget disable/search and do perform/jump/balance/umd/open lock instead.

[skraus1]

Looks good to me, pretty similiar to my TWF Bard/Rogue except I went Bard 12/Rogue 3/Fighter 1 for more skill points and a bit more sneak damage. My stats were a bit different being Drow vs. Dwarf, 16 str, 16 dex, 12 con, 14 int, 12 cha I think.

Yeah, wanting to have a dwarf with a 16 dex is costly Drow have a natural advantage in getting decent rogue stats, but get take a hit in the hp department, by, I believe, 82hp with the same feats and same respective stat outlay(i.e., 12 con for drow = 16 con on dwarf).

I would say spell points might be an issue, but those new green steel goggles/bracers would be great for this build if you don't mind grinding for them.

To some extent yes, but that is not a problem that can be solved by extra cha, a 12 starting cha versus an 8 I think means 25 to 30sp difference on a bard.

I think you need more hit points too squishy

Why does everyone always make fun of my squishy dwarves?!?!?! You can melee effectively with less than 400 hp!!!!!

[skraus1]

Well Zhaffini has now hit level 9.4, and I wanted to give a little leveling update. Leveling Zhaffini really was easy as in the low to mid game AC is king, and Zhaffini has enough dex to get a great AC at low levels. The extra dex allows Zhaffini to effectively tank well before he got displacement, and thus completely eliminating Zhaffy's leveling difficulties. The first 5-6 levels, basically Zhaffini pretended to be a defensive fighter going the full plate and shield route with a nice DWA. I even am taking the armor mastery enhancement to make full use of my dex bonus. It is effective. I also learned that focusing chant, blur and displacement all have no somatic component, so can be cast regardless of armor failure chance and were a good way to play a true tank and burn mana at the same time. At level 9, I'm twfing with a 33 or 34 AC and displacement, and should be able to up the AC to 39 or 40 once I get some choasgaurds and a decent cl 3 or 5 shield wand.

I am not sure at what exact point AC will become useless in the upper levels, but I'm guessing around level 13 or 14 I'll go full out dps.

As Zhaffini has a 11 starting int and therefore just misses the 13 int required for CE, I could imagine a slight variant with at least a 12 starting int taking combat expertise to boost AC while TWfing into the mid to upper 40s without raid loot. I'm really not sure how effective this would be in the Vale however, as most things seems to have only minor difficulty in hitting a 50 AC even at normal settings.

As much as I love the Zhaffy build, I really am starting to think that Zhaffini will be better due to the ability to make full use of special effects weapons such as vorpals and wounders as well as slightly better dps (assuming no DR).

[EinarMal]

As much as I love the Zhaffy build, I really am starting to think that Zhaffini will be better due to the ability to make full use of special effects weapons such as vorpals and wounders as well as slightly better dps (assuming no DR).

Another TWF convert (rubs hands together and laughs maniacally)

I have a Rogue/Ranger tempest build going now, you should try that next it is sick...tempest really puts it over the top.

[skraus1]

I decided to go only bard 10 at the current cap, giving me 4th level spells, but having me miss out on the damage enhancement at 12. At level 20 this build would be 14/4/2 so as to get the best song. Basically Bard 16 would give the inspire greatness song, which would help in beholder fights and ottos irresistable for oranges without spell resistance. I expect oranges without spell resistance to be quite rare at level 20. Implosion+energy drain and FOD+enervation would all be too easy otherwise. especially given that death ward/block won't protect against implosion.

Instead of bard 12, I am thinking of going rogue 4. Rogue 4 would give me another sneak attack dice and enhancement, skill enhancements, subtle melee attacks, and many extra skill points due to the fact I can slack off my rogue skills for a level or two of bard and then buy them as class skils on my rogue levels.

[skraus1]

I've gotten some pms about how to make this build without +2 tomes, and what my skills and saves look like at level 16 now. As such I've updated my first post.

[Ricter]

Thanks for the update. Like I said earlier, I was looking at building something similar to this.

Why Fighter over Barbarian? Rage and warchanter doesn't make up for the extra feats?

Does TWF stack up DPS wise before you can get pairs of the specials (vorpal etc), or is it pretty much sword and board until then? You left out comments on a few levels in the middle there. Do you do any damage when you're playing defensive tank <6?

Also, when I considered the build, I did Bard 7 / Rogue 7 / Fighter 2. You have actual experience, but here's what I thought the differences were.

+ More skill points - can keep skills maxxed more often
+ 4d6 SA - a lot of extra damage
+ Way of the Mech - hit traps easier and better cover that role

- Will saves - this does hurt
- SP / Spells - most of the higher level buff spells didn't seem important (past level 3, that seems to be the golden level with displace, haste, and GH)

For your version, what do you think about taking Bard 10 / Rogue 4 / Fighter 2? What is your last feat, OTWF? How viable is it?

How effective are you at healing? I realize that isn't your focus at all, but I'm wondering how effective you would be at it.

[skraus1]

Thanks for the update. Like I said earlier, I was looking at building something similar to this.

Why Fighter over Barbarian? Rage and warchanter doesn't make up for the extra feats?

Does TWF stack up DPS wise before you can get pairs of the specials (vorpal etc), or is it pretty much sword and board until then? You left out comments on a few levels in the middle there. Do you do any damage when you're playing defensive tank <6?
.

Barbs don't have enough feats to make an effective twfer and be a warchanter (5 mandatory feats and 2 more feats that are just stupidly good in this build). With only 1 flexible feat, the figther levels are pretty well essential to the build. TWF does about the same damage or a bit more against creatures without dr. The reason is that bard song, sneak attack and power attack are added to both hands....meaning that twfing provides perfect synergy with a rogue warchanter. I have a thfer barb in my Zhaffy build, and Zhaffini puts out the same or more dps as well as can use proc weapons twice as effectively. Fighter levels give full profeciency in armor and shields, and you don't have evasion or many useful spells that have somatic components at this level, so play a true tank until you see it becoming more of a hindrance than a benfit. This happened once I got evasion.

You left out comments on a few levels in the middle there. Do you do any damage when you're playing defensive tank <6?
.

Ac is king at these levels. DPS becomes king later on, but is very much secondary at least until the giant hold. With that said, because Zhaffini has a good str, power attack and I have collected a lot of nice twink gear, I typically led in kills as well as was the main tank. Sword and board slows dps somewhat, but increases survivability greatly until at least level 9 or so. I went full tank in mith full plate and mithheavy shield and simply took the spell failure....which wasn't often considering that focusing chant, blur and displacement don't get spell failure rolls. If I was in a good group that wasn't well served by a having a defensive fighter, I went full out dps in the mid levels.

Also, when I considered the build, I did Bard 7 / Rogue 7 / Fighter 2. You have actual experience, but here's what I thought the differences were.

+ More skill points - can keep skills maxxed more often
+ 4d6 SA - a lot of extra damage
+ Way of the Mech - hit traps easier and better cover that role

- Will saves - this does hurt
- SP / Spells - most of the higher level buff spells didn't seem important (past level 3, that seems to be the golden level with displace, haste, and GH)
.

You're leaving out the biggest difference in the builds: songs. A bard 10 will have +3 to hit via song and +1 to damage compared to a bard 7....and maxing out at bard 11 instead of 14 costs you another +2 damage and +2 to hit. Remember these bonuses go to the entire party/raid. This build is intended to be as good or slightly better songs as a full non-warchanter bard. These bonuses are very noticable to the entire party, and will get you invites to raid. Freedom of movement and Dimension Door are also very nice to be able to cast from mana.

Rogue 7 versus rogue 4 is only a difference of 2d6 sneak attack dice, when you get them which is not certain in a build with this much dps. By an increaed ability to use power attack effectively and their improved song damage, the higher bard build will do more dps in most situations...and will definitally add more to the party's overall dps more than an increased rogue version would.

For your version, what do you think about taking Bard 10 / Rogue 4 / Fighter 2? What is your last feat, OTWF? How viable is it?
.

I love the build. It has skills, good songs, enough mana with shroud goggles, good durability, dps and good ability to use proc weapons. The only thing I'm uncertain about was whether to take more bard and less rogue, but I figured there will not be any super enhancements at level 16 and the SR would be a pain and therefore I could do without level 6 spells.

My last feat (at level 15) is greater two-weapon fighting. This feat adds two off hand attacks and therefore is the best of the twfing line. It is essential in my opinion for this build.

My level 12 feat is the flexible feat. Extend or IC: pierce is what I would recommend...probably extend unless you have some really nice piercing weapons. However, I asked my guildies what they would prefer and they said they would prefer the increased killing power of IC pierce so that is what I have. Zhaffini therefore terrorizes the poor eladrin with his banishers and I'm looking for w/p weapons.

How effective are you at healing? I realize that isn't your focus at all, but I'm wondering how effective you would be at it.

Currently it sucks healing from mana. The mana pool is very small and there are too many great enhancements to take to fit in many healing things. Once I get a shroud 3 upgrade I will be able to use heal scrolls relatively reliably and will therefore become an okay healer in a pinch. Healing from wands is slow given the number of hp this build has so I try to hit myself after each and every fight so I don't have to stop for a minute and heal up.

On this build a shroud item is more important than a weapon in my opinion. I would recommend the +6wizardy, +6 wisdom, +5 cha skills, +1 int skills +150 sp version....perhaps with that torc ability if you have lots of ingredients. This frees up 1-2 item slots and adds a lot of extra benefits as well.

[Ricter]

Barbs don't have enough feats to make an effective twfer and be a warchanter (5 mandatory feats and 2 more feats that are just stupidly good in this build). With only 1 flexible feat, the figther levels are pretty well essential to the build. TWF does about the same damage or a bit more against creatures without dr. The reason is that bard song, sneak attack and power attack are added to both hands....meaning that twfing provides perfect synergy with a rogue warchanter. I have a thfer barb in my Zhaffy build, and Zhaffini puts out the same or more dps as well as can use proc weapons twice as effectively. Fighter levels give full profeciency in armor and shields, and you don't have evasion or many useful spells that have somatic components at this level, so play a true tank until you see it becoming more of a hindrance than a benfit. This happened once I got evasion.

Hmmm... okay. I can definitely see that. I just thought that the rages would more than make up for it. But this build is pretty feat heavy, so that makes sense. It does make for a nice start for the class too, rogue wasn't the most efficient class to level.

Ac is king at these levels. DPS becomes king later on, but is very much secondary at least until the giant hold. With that said, because Zhaffini has a good str, power attack and I have collected a lot of nice twink gear, I typically led in kills as well as was the main tank. Sword and board slows dps somewhat, but increases survivability greatly until at least level 9 or so. I went full tank in mith full plate and mithheavy shield and simply took the spell failure....which wasn't often considering that focusing chant, blur and displacement don't get spell failure rolls. If I was in a good group that wasn't well served by a having a defensive fighter, I went full out dps in the mid levels.

What did full out dps end up being? TWF or THF? I imagine the former, but a general opinion seems to be to not TWF at all until 6-7.

You're leaving out the biggest difference in the builds: songs. A bard 10 will have +3 to hit via song and +1 to damage compared to a bard 7....and maxing out at bard 11 instead of 14 costs you another +2 damage and +2 to hit. Remember these bonuses go to the entire party/raid. This build is intended to be as good or slightly better songs as a full non-warchanter bard. These bonuses are very noticable to the entire party, and will get you invites to raid. Freedom of movement and Dimension Door are also very nice to be able to cast from mana.

Very good point, that pretty much makes the decision then.

Rogue 7 versus rogue 4 is only a difference of 2d6 sneak attack dice, when you get them which is not certain in a build with this much dps. By an increaed ability to use power attack effectively and their improved song damage, the higher bard build will do more dps in most situations...and will definitally add more to the party's overall dps more than an increased rogue version would.

Oh, you switched to rogue 4. I was still looking at the rogue 2 version.

I love the build. It has skills, good songs, enough mana with shroud goggles, good durability, dps and good ability to use proc weapons. The only thing I'm uncertain about was whether to take more bard and less rogue, but I figured there will not be any super enhancements at level 16 and the SR would be a pain and therefore I could do without level 6 spells.

Right, I was trying to figure out something to do this Like I said earlier, I was running more levels of rogue, but after seeing the differences, I think your build is better.

My last feat (at level 15) is greater two-weapon fighting. This feat adds two off hand attacks and therefore is the best of the twfing line. It is essential in my opinion for this build.

Okay.

My level 12 feat is the flexible feat. Extend or IC: pierce is what I would recommend...probably extend unless you have some really nice piercing weapons. However, I asked my guildies what they would prefer and they said they would prefer the increased killing power of IC pierce so that is what I have. Zhaffini therefore terrorizes the poor eladrin with his banishers and I'm looking for w/p weapons.

I'll have to see, but I'll have plenty of time to decide. Thanks for the explanation.

[QUOTE=skraus1;1640049]Currently it sucks healing from mana. The mana pool is very small and there are too many great enhancements to take to fit in many healing things. Once I get a shroud 3 upgrade I will be able to use heal scrolls relatively reliably and will therefore become an okay healer in a pinch. Healing from wands is slow given the number of hp this build has so I try to hit myself after each and every fight so I don't have to stop for a minute and heal up.

That's what I was looking for. I think between scrolls, wands, and spell points, you could pull it off. You'd have to run an extra set of gear.

On this build a shroud item is more important than a weapon in my opinion. I would recommend the +6wizardy, +6 wisdom, +5 cha skills, +1 int skills +150 sp version....perhaps with that torc ability if you have lots of ingredients. This frees up 1-2 item slots and adds a lot of extra benefits as well.

Well, I don't even that on my main character yet, but that's definitely something I have to look into later.

What's your Haggle skill at, as an aside? I realize your CHA isn't stellar, but you do have it as a class skill for quite awhile.

[skraus1]

It does make for a nice start for the class too, rogue wasn't the most efficient class to level.

What did full out dps end up being? TWF or THF? I imagine the former, but a general opinion seems to be to not TWF at all until 6-7.

What's your Haggle skill at, as an aside? I realize your CHA isn't stellar, but you do have it as a class skill for quite awhile.

You must start out as a rogue. It will give you better skills to chose from and more of them.

Until level 6-7 I went sword and board or thfing, then I went sword or board or twfing around 6-8, then I went only twfing at level 11-12.

I didn't really invest in haggle but I still can reach a 32 haggle with only 4 ranks in haggle (4ranks+13 item+2shroud+3 boost+1 FC+4GH+1 luck+3cha). However, I do have an almost maxed balance skill so it would be possible to max haggle if you're willing to drop these sorts of general utility skills.

[Ricter]

You must start out as a rogue. It will give you better skills to chose from and more of them.

Until level 6-7 I went sword and board or thfing, then I went sword or board or twfing around 6-8, then I went only twfing at level 11-12.

I didn't really invest in haggle but I still can reach a 32 haggle with only 4 ranks in haggle (4ranks+13 item+2shroud+3 boost+1 FC+4GH+1 luck+3cha). However, I do have an almost maxed balance skill so it would be possible to max haggle if you're willing to drop these sorts of general utility skills.

Right, I meant leveling as rogue. I realize you take rogue at level 1 for the skills. But you don't really level as a rogue.

[Fahrenheit]

What would you think of a 7/5/4 Bard/Rogue/Fighter? Warchanting as a obvious specialty, with lots and lots of sneak attack backed up by weapon spec and extra fighter feats.

[skraus1]

What would you think of a 7/5/4 Bard/Rogue/Fighter? Warchanting as a obvious specialty, with lots and lots of sneak attack backed up by weapon spec and extra fighter feats.

This build has exactly one more feat than Zhaffini, which is weapon specialization, and 1d6 extra sneak attack. However, it's attack bonus is 3 lower due to worse songs and it gains only one extra damage and the 1d6 extra sneak attack due to worse songs. In this sort of build, whatever weapon spec would give you would be equalled or exceeded by the song bonuses you could have had by more bard. E.g., you're trading +3 to attack and +1 damage for the entire party for an extra 5.5 damage for each of your swings. This is probably a bad trade in my opinion, especially when coupled with all the caster goodness you're losing out on as well.

As a warchanter, even a heavily multiclassed one, you should be able to meet or exceed the damage given by a normal bard 16 with your song and come close in the + to hit department as well. If you can't, that is a problem in my view as that is what people expect from every bard. 14 bard is the bard with the best songs currently, so it is something I would build for in a level 20 build as by my estimation this is where a warchanter will match a normal bard 20.

You also lose an awful lot of caster ability due to shorter buff durations and less mana for recasting. In a build with this little bard, you will be forced to have extend to even make decent use of your best buff spells. An extended displacement will last 1.5 minutes at bard 7. At 45 seconds, it doesn't beat a clickie or scroll by enough to matter in my opinion.

At the current cap 10 bard is the least I would recommend, and even then you need to be getting a lot for each level taken outside of bard. Bard 14 is really a good place for bards, so they need to be able to reach it eventually and need an awful lot to take them away from it at the current cap. Despite really loving the build, I truthfully am still not sure whether 10/4/2 or 12/2/2 would have been more optimal for Zhaffini.

[maddmatt70]

I would say the minimum is 9 bard and not 10 for the inspire greatness, unless the levels in other classes give you something great. Arguably a 9 ranger/7 bard is an example of a multiclass bard build with less then 9 bard levels that would be pretty good although your still short a feat for a warchanter/tempest with all the fixings even if you go human. I personally cant live without haste or displacement depending on the build's needs so nothing less then a 7 bard in my opinion

[skraus1]

I would say the minimum is 9 bard and not 10 for the inspire greatness, unless the levels in other classes give you something great. Arguably a 9 ranger/7 bard is an example of a multiclass bard build with less then 9 bard levels that would be pretty good although your still short a feat for a warchanter/tempest with all the fixings even if you go human. I personally cant live without haste or displacement depending on the build's needs so nothing less then a 7 bard in my opinion

At this cap yes 9 bard works, but with level 20 in mind, bard 10 at the current cap seems to be ideal.

[maddmatt70]

At this cap yes 9 bard works, but with level 20 in mind, bard 10 at the current cap seems to be ideal.

Some builds to think about that could be good at end game with 9 bard. 11 barbarian/9bard difficult to play but synergies, 11 ranger/9 bard, 9 ranger/9 bard/ 2 fighter, and when fighters get some love there might be some sort of fighter combo in there.

[Ricter]

What do your enhancements look like? I'm trying to figure out how important Dwarf is to the build.

[skraus1]

What do your enhancements look like? I'm trying to figure out how important Dwarf is to the build.

I took all the dwarven toughness enhancements, so 10 pts. I took all 3 spell resistance enhancements so 6 pts. Dwarven con enhancments for another 2-6 points are also great. So at least 18-22 pts worth of enhancements are dwarven.

Other people take the axe enhacements for a lot of additional points, but I use holy burst of pure good scimis and kukris for my primary weapons with a bloodstone, which puts out more dps than most any axe combo. If my equipment was worse, I might have been better off with dwarven axes and handaxes.

Dwarven armor mastry also helps during level up or if you care about ac, and getting the most out of your 24 dex, at higher levels.

If you want to melee the pit fiend, you should be a dwarf as dwarves have 66 hp advantage from enhancements, and another 16 hp from racial abilities. Plus the dwarven spell resistance means you get a 34 reflex and 26 will saves against spells. All of this means you are much tougher to kill than any other race.

[Ricter]

I took all the dwarven toughness enhancements, so 10 pts. I took all 3 spell resistance enhancements so 6 pts. Dwarven con enhancments for another 2-6 points are also great. So at least 18-22 pts worth of enhancements are dwarven.

Other people take the axe enhacements for a lot of additional points, but I use holy burst of pure good scimis and kukris for my primary weapons with a bloodstone, which puts out more dps than most any axe combo. If my equipment was worse, I might have been better off with dwarven axes and handaxes.

Dwarven armor mastry also helps during level up or if you care about ac, and getting the most out of your 24 dex, at higher levels.

If you want to melee the pit fiend, you should be a dwarf as dwarves have 66 hp advantage from enhancements, and another 16 hp from racial abilities. Plus the dwarven spell resistance means you get a 34 reflex and 26 will saves against spells. All of this means you are much tougher to kill than any other race.

Hmmm... alright. Thanks again for the comments.