Bard Perform Skill - Still Useless...

[TommyBoy]

In responce to Zenako:

Actually a mute spell would be somewhat nice. But I dont think it would function quite like your thinking. If it was like in other RPG type games (FF) it would make it so that bards couldn't sing, Casters couldnt cast spoken spells but hand movement ones could be, and maybe diplo, bluff, and intimidate wouldn't work either. But sonic damage from like the von 5 boss stomping would still work.
Just my thoughts.

also I agree that perfom would go against Will saves.

Again just my 2 cp

[Zenako]

In responce to Zenako:

Actually a mute spell would be somewhat nice. But I dont think it would function quite like your thinking. If it was like in other RPG type games (FF) it would make it so that bards couldn't sing, Casters couldnt cast spoken spells but hand movement ones could be, and maybe diplo, bluff, and intimidate wouldn't work either. But sonic damage from like the von 5 boss stomping would still work.
Just my thoughts.

also I agree that perfom would go against Will saves.

Again just my 2 cp

Ahh, but in D&D Silence 15'R stopped spells and sonic effects in the area of effect. It was often used tactically by imbuing an item with the Silence Spell 15'R and then getting said item into the targeted area to nullify the casters for a round (or perhaps more) if it took them longer to escape the area of effect. It also gave use to the Meta Magic Still Spell.

Plus it had the effect of making melee skill matter at all levels even more. However since it was only a 2nd level spell, it was fairly easy to avoid being affected by it at higher levels by using things like the spell that prevents all 1-3 (IIRC) level spells from entering your area/personal space.

[Raithe]

Games do not need to be geared for the upper ends, and what I just underlined needs to go on the wall at Turbine headquarters. You can let people achieve levels of competence that are extremely minute in usefulness because they are so high, it's all part of the great game of D&D.

My bard would have a +55 or so to the perform check if fascinate had a save. So what? Still makes the perform skill useful.

My sorceror/bard will only have a +43, if she bothers to wear an item (which she won't). Without the item, its probably more like a +28. Paladins, clerics, and sorcerors with the "Force of Personality" feat can all make their save, on a low perform check roll.

I vote to make fascinate work like it should. That means making it work instantaneous on a single target, requiring the bard to keep playing (not attack or do other things), and then allowing additional targets every 6 seconds or so depending on bard level.

Any combat or offensive spells cast in the area should break all the fascinations and bestow an AoE fascination immunity for the duration of the instance.

It would make the use of fascination less game-breaking, and more interesting.

[Dane_McArdy]

I vote to make fascinate work like it should. That means making it work instantaneous on a single target, requiring the bard to keep playing (not attack or do other things), and then allowing additional targets every 6 seconds or so depending on bard level.

But then they would need to change all the songs to only work while you played, and people were in range.

No thanks, because then to use my class abilities, my game play involves me standing there, playing a song. That's it. That does not equal fun for me.

[Zenako]

Games do not need to be geared for the upper ends, and what I just underlined needs to go on the wall at Turbine headquarters. You can let people achieve levels of competence that are extremely minute in usefulness because they are so high, it's all part of the great game of D&D.

My bard would have a +55 or so to the perform check if fascinate had a save. So what? Still makes the perform skill useful.

My sorceror/bard will only have a +43, if she bothers to wear an item (which she won't). Without the item, its probably more like a +28. Paladins, clerics, and sorcerors with the "Force of Personality" feat can all make their save, on a low perform check roll.

I vote to make fascinate work like it should. That means making it work instantaneous on a single target, requiring the bard to keep playing (not attack or do other things), and then allowing additional targets every 6 seconds or so depending on bard level.

Any combat or offensive spells cast in the area should break all the fascinations and bestow an AoE fascination immunity for the duration of the instance.

It would make the use of fascination less game-breaking, and more interesting.

Making all those changes would essentially render Fascinate useless in almost all real time quests and parties I have seen. UNLESS you gave it a range of effect a lot greater than it is now, which is almost on top of the target. Then I could see a few occasions where a bard might be able to sneak up, Fascinate a Guard, suggest them and then work on the next one. If you were ever in a group that would be willing to run a quest about 3 times as slow as it normally does.....fat chance

[rimble]

I vote to make fascinate work like it should. That means making it work instantaneous on a single target, requiring the bard to keep playing (not attack or do other things), and then allowing additional targets every 6 seconds or so depending on bard level.

I was thinking along those lines at first too...but **** would that be boring. Also, Fascinate works on multiple targets. Suggestion just on one (who must already be Fascinated). Regardless, you could always just use the PnP DC for Suggestion on Fascinate too. Who cares about making Perform items useful, get rid of 'em. Leave it so that Perform ranks (and high enough Bard level) are just to get access to new songs. DC = 10 + 1/2 Bard Level + Charisma Mod for all songs. Leave durations as is. More and more options.

[Missing_Minds]

Wait a minute. I thought that perform effected the DC of your songs. Am I completely wrong for think it should? Because that seems like the obivous thing to me.

saddly, it doesn't effect the DC at all.

[Raithe]

No thanks, because then to use my class abilities, my game play involves me standing there, playing a song. That's it. That does not equal fun for me.

I was just casting my vote, and that's a good point.

You could still make fascinate instantaneous and one target at a time. Make the song a buff that enables a fascinate button with (bard level dependent) uses. Give it a decent range and make combat or offensive spells dispell it, and you've found an interesting avoidance mechanism that isn't an easy button.

[Invalid_86]

Perform actually doing something? That's crazy talk!

But seriously perhaps new dance, sing, or flourish type emotes could be tied to ranks in Perform.

Such as 5 ranks gives you /dance 3
8 ranks gives you /flourish
10 ranks give you /dance 4

And so on. It will give Bards and artistic type other classes a bit more flair.

[Dane_McArdy]

I was just casting my vote, and that's a good point.

You could still make fascinate instantaneous and one target at a time. Make the song a buff that enables a fascinate button with (bard level dependent) uses. Give it a decent range and make combat or offensive spells dispell it, and you've found an interesting avoidance mechanism that isn't an easy button.

I don't have to much of an issue with fascinate effecting only X amount, but not one at a time. The amount effected should be higher then paper, to match the higher number of mobs we might face in a given encounter. If it was 1 per two levels, with a save, at level 16, that would just be 8 mobs.

Because even now with mobs moving around, and fire crazy sorcerers, I don't always fascinate all the mobs.

[Freeman]

I'm definitely in favor of reducing the power of Fascinate. However, it isn't practical to change it to be strictly in line with PnP rules. There, it really can only be used outside of combat, with a few rare exceptions. Since that isn't an option here, some changes would have to be made. One idea I had was for creatures that were Fascinated not to aggro on anyone. That way, it could be used to bypass the mobs entirely if the group decided. Of course, to keep this under control, they should receive a saving throw, and any combat nearby should bring them out of it. All of that would take a decent amount of coding, I'm sure, so I don't expect it to happen. I'm not asking for a large amount of development time be spent on this. But considering all of the requests for paladin love and rogue love, I don't think it is unreasonable to ask for a little bard love be thrown in there. We bards are all about love anyway

[Cahira]

Fascinate is foolproof, there is no save except being a red boss.

Actually, I've noticed it not working on mini-bosses, either. Go to an adventure area and try to fascinate a rare encounter...doesn't happen. Specifically, I'm thinking of Haraja the Firedancer in Menechtarun and Noozer on Sorrowdusk. I know for a fact that those 2 rares never get fascinated...and they're mini-bosses.

[Freeman]

Actually, I've noticed it not working on mini-bosses, either. Go to an adventure area and try to fascinate a rare encounter...doesn't happen. Specifically, I'm thinking of Haraja the Firedancer in Menechtarun and Noozer on Sorrowdusk. I know for a fact that those 2 rares never get fascinated...and they're mini-bosses.

You are correct, it doesn't work on any named creatures, no matter what the color of their name. Okay, I haven't tested this on any raid bosses yet, so it is possible that purple names could be Fascinated. Anyone want to charge Velah while playing a tune to test it out?

[Vormaerin]

The only *real* point to making fascinate saves based on perform skill would be to nerf the 6 Cha, 1 lvl of bard types that use fascinate with 100% effectiveness. That's a bit of an absurd extreme, but you get the point. A bard who actually has a high cha, high skill, and (potentially) a high + item would still fascinate pretty much as often as his or her party allows.

[Cahira]

You are correct

Ah...music to a girl's ears.

[Invalid_86]

Ah...music to a girl's ears.

I thought it was "Don't worry honey, I'll do the dishes tonight!"

[BlueLightBandit]

Actually, I've noticed it not working on mini-bosses, either. Go to an adventure area and try to fascinate a rare encounter...doesn't happen. Specifically, I'm thinking of Haraja the Firedancer in Menechtarun and Noozer on Sorrowdusk. I know for a fact that those 2 rares never get fascinated...and they're mini-bosses.

You are correct, it doesn't work on any named creatures, no matter what the color of their name. Okay, I haven't tested this on any raid bosses yet, so it is possible that purple names could be Fascinated. Anyone want to charge Velah while playing a tune to test it out?

Which is borked... if it can be intimdated, it SHOULD be able to be fascinated.

Fascinate should have a dc just like any other spell, except instead of 10+spell level (like other spells) it should simply be the perform skill. As it stands now, mobs don't get a save against a song... which is equally borked.

[Garth_of_Sarlona]

Don't forget the ever present Greater Heroism at those levels for another +4 to skill checks. mmm

19 Ranks, 12 Stats, 15 item, 4 for GH, 2 for Luck item, plus the d20 roll. DC ranging from 53 to 72. Not really any different than 100% as things now stand. 95 vs 100....not hardly worth making all the changes to achieve....

as far as I understand, greater heroism does't affect your DC or the enemy saves, it just affects your saves. So the +4 would not affect the DC on the facinate song (if there was a DC on the facinate song).

Garth (is feeling pedantic tonight)

[RichD]

as far as I understand, greater heroism does't affect your DC or the enemy saves, it just affects your saves. So the +4 would not affect the DC on the facinate song (if there was a DC on the facinate song).

Garth (is feeling pedantic tonight)

The suggestion was that the fascinate DC would be based on your perform skill (unlike normal DCs), and GH would boost that by 4 (just as Perform items would boost it), thus the DC would also be increased.

[Yvonne_Blacksword]

Uh...yeah..I put all my skill points for 15th level in concentration..something I learned from my sorc...
I kept cas<smack>
I kept casting spel<smack>
I kept cast<smack>
I got tired of getting interu<smack>
oops!
I was concentrating so hard I forgot to pay attention...
What is this skill "perform"? it is totally...oops!
BTW...I had the same opinion about concentrate...for 14 levels...
Looking forward to level 16...so I can hear what that song sounds like.
:/