Weekly Developer Activities - 2/18/08

[ArkoHighStar]

This thread started out commenting on things that needed fixing and I'd like to add one. It's small but a pain. Most of the time, in any tavern, when one clicks on "buy", you can't buy. You have to click on "sell" then back on "buy." Been that way from forever. I wouldn't think it would be that hard to correct. Just a small pet peeve. Along with a pouch for spell components which which would then free up a lot of needed inventory slots. Having fun otherwise.

your components bag is in the works, the issue is not creating the bag it is how to remove the components used during spell casting while they are in the bag.

[Pecky]

Same discussion. Hardness and durability of items is borked right now and Turbine is claiming they can't fix it retroactively. Their answers is to bind the items and use the ritual. Well, unfortunately the ritual is extremely expensive so this is not even close to a useful solution.

Anyways, try to keep it clean and please repost the suggestions about an NPC and/or other ideas. I don't personally like getting those hard to acquire items and then finding out that they are broken each and every quest. I also do not want to be forced to bind said item to my character, not when I could use it on other characters.

Thanks.


*Edit*

Tolero closed both my threads on this subject but she said I can bring it up in this thread.

I think this is an issue that needs to be addressed with more than "were sorry, go bind it." type of response.

(Edited to be a bit more pleasant)

[DasLurch]

Although it is nice to see some of the rogue enhancements reduced, It would be nice to see some of the IMPORTANT ones have their respective costs reduced...

Otherwise, I'd just like to hear WHAT the "Annaversery Update" is actually going to be other than fixes and small additions. Maybe? Please?

[Westerner]

I think the improved rogue trap sense saves are a step in the right direction to address the extremely high save DC's on Elite. Is it enough? We will see.

[Impaqt]

No, it doesn't cover 98% of the level-appropriate traps in the game. You seem to be misinformed, but I can understand that. The whole playerbase has gotten used to running through traps rather than bothering with disabling since Mod 3.3.

This change is not likely to make that situation better.

Yes... It DOes.. Play a rogue and verify the Numbers if you want.... Or at least go look at CForces THread regarding Rogue DC's

[STROBE]

Hmm, here is an idea, then DONT spend the points on it.

This is probably just one thing in a list of things to come for Paladins. A little patience would probably go a long way.

While a lot of people consider AC a throw away, it isn't. With correct templating and good use of feats and enhancements you can be unhittable except for a 20 on about 99% of monsters out there. Even on elite. Thus they have to carefully balance the whole AC bonus from Paladin's since it stacks with everything (Except for another Paladins aura).

Like I said, I certainly do not see this as the only thing they will be adding for Paladins, give it some time.

...since my first reply was deleted by the moderator. And I'll be all like well mannered and stuff too.

As I pointed out, in the deleted post, I've been waiting since the enhancements were changed, back about 15 months ago. Is that not sufficiently long enough? For whom is that not long enough? Seems just a tad on the absurdly long side, to me. Just a tad.

My main concern is this. I don't want to see several enhancements created that few, if any, paladins will take, because when we complain about the lack of enhancements, the list of new enhancements will be proudly pointed at, and we paladins will be told we are being greedy, that this is enough. It will be completely ignored that several of the enhancements are excessively expensive for the power they add. It will be completely ignored that several of the enhancements are in effect ghosts and do not even exist, except in a theoretical sense, to theoriticians, and other people that like to argue just for the fun of it.

To illustrate the point, ask yourself this question. If a tree falls in the forest and no one is there to hear it, does it make a sound? No, wait, wrong question.

If few to none take an enhancement, does it actually exist? How few? 1 in 25? 1 in 50? 1 in 100?

I mean we can create a Bulwark of Good V and put its cost at 50 action points, and proudly point to it and say, there's another enhancement. But it would only exist in theory, not in practice.

In fairness to the Game Developers I want to say that the problem is not caused by them, but by the person who decided to allow paladins to be multi-classed. This was a fundamental error in game design and judgment. And its probably an unrecoverable error. And it was made long before this problem landed in Turbine's lap.

God knows, the license holder probably will not permit it, but several problems could be solved if Turbine could elect that the paladin class could not be multi-classed.

Because it shouldn't be. Its special. Its an exception. And it always has been. Well, until someone said it could be multiclassed.

[Vormaerin]

I don't see what paladin multiclassing has to do with anything...

Nor do I see any reason to believe that the devs are just going to toss out a few useless enhancements and say 'ahah!'. For one thing, they've ALREADY SAID that this was just one that they happened to put together since it was just an add to an existing line, rather than something entirely new. Eladrin even said, effectively, that they don't expect a lot of folks to take it because they don't think any of the costs beyond 6 are really worth it. However, they are working on a lot of other paladin stuff. They were just farther along on the rogue and halfling stuff, so that's what's posted so far.

Gimme a break, the mod 7 isn't even expected until what? April or something? If it was due in a couple weeks, like 6.1, then maybe some freaking out would be justified. Honestly, what does your post actually say? "Uhh, the devs might be complete fruitloops and do something utterly ridiculous, because, uhh, they might." Well, that and you are pretty much saying "Eladrin's lying in his post".

I'm eagerly awaiting new paladin stuff myself. Paladins and bards are my favorite classes to play. But I think we can wait until we are a little closer to final before we start calling them out for not living up to our expectations of the 'paladin love' mod.

[STROBE]

I don't see what paladin multiclassing has to do with anything...

Nor do I see any reason to believe that the devs are just going to toss out a few useless enhancements and say 'ahah!'. For one thing, they've ALREADY SAID that this was just one that they happened to put together since it was just an add to an existing line, rather than something entirely new. Eladrin even said, effectively, that they don't expect a lot of folks to take it because they don't think any of the costs beyond 6 are really worth it. However, they are working on a lot of other paladin stuff. They were just farther along on the rogue and halfling stuff, so that's what's posted so far.

Gimme a break, the mod 7 isn't even expected until what? April or something? If it was due in a couple weeks, like 6.1, then maybe some freaking out would be justified. Honestly, what does your post actually say? "Uhh, the devs might be complete fruitloops and do something utterly ridiculous, because, uhh, they might." Well, that and you are pretty much saying "Eladrin's lying in his post".

I'm eagerly awaiting new paladin stuff myself. Paladins and bards are my favorite classes to play. But I think we can wait until we are a little closer to final before we start calling them out for not living up to our expectations of the 'paladin love' mod.

Don't see what paladin multiclassing has to do with anything? OK, try this. The paladin class feats and enhancements that can be gained by splashing 1 to 4 levels of paladin are too good, were never intended to be obtained that way, and unbalance the game. As stated by the inventor of the 'batman' build, the enhancement change module was essentially a 'lets kill the batman build' module. And he was speaking pure truth. Its the crux of the entire paladin enhancment problem. Sorry you cant see that.

What did my post say? Can't help you there. See, seems like I used plain English, and well that's the best I can do. But I am sorry you don't understand my post, for both of us. For the record, tho, you did NOT understand it.

And for the record, I didn't 'actually say' or 'pretty much say' anything of the kind.

Toss a few useless enhancements at us. No they wouldn't do that. Except they already have. Faith Based enhancments of the Silver Flame. I don't know a single paladin that has those two. And they are often pointed to as 'proof' that paladins have enough enhancements already. 2 points for +1 to hit with a bow. How many paladins bother with a bow, 1 in 50? 1in 100? And 4 more points to destroy one outsider every 10 minutes. Didn't think so.

In closing I would like to say I am finished with these forums. Finished with offering anything to the developers. Finished with contributing to this community. Finished. There's just too many sick people, that are just too sick to be around. My time is too precious to me to put up with it anymore. You can misunderstand, misquote, misparaphrase, and misrepresent me any way you want with impunity, cause I'm not coming back here to read and reply again.

Are you happy now?

[Pellegro]

In closing I would like to say I am finished with these forums. Finished with offering anything to the developers. Finished with contributing to this community. Finished. There's just too many sick people, that are just too sick to be around. My time is too precious to me to put up with it anymore. You can misunderstand, misquote, misparaphrase, and misrepresent me any way you want with impunity, cause I'm not coming back here to read and reply again.

So I guess asking for your stuff would be pointless?

(j/k)

[Vormaerin]

Don't see what paladin multiclassing has to do with anything? OK, try this. The paladin class feats and enhancements that can be gained by splashing 1 to 4 levels of paladin are too good, were never intended to be obtained that way, and unbalance the game.

And for the record, I didn't 'actually say' or 'pretty much say' anything of the kind.

Toss a few useless enhancements at us. No they wouldn't do that. Except they already have. Faith Based enhancments of the Silver Flame. I don't know a single paladin that has those two. And they are often pointed to as 'proof' that paladins have enough enhancements already.

Are you happy now?

1) No, that has nothing to do with paladin multiclassing. It has to do with the irrelevance of alignment and roleplaying in DDO. A 'batman' who was actually constrained by the paladin ethos would not be a problem. Its also something of an issue of the lack of favored class rules and associated penalties, though those penalties wouldn't be a big deal in DDO anyway.

2) Quotes like this (and the larger paragraph just above it): "I mean we can create a Bulwark of Good V and put its cost at 50 action points, and proudly point to it and say, there's another enhancement. But it would only exist in theory, not in practice." do, in fact, constitute saying the devs are just going to do something lame just because they might. Its an absurdist logic fallacy.

3) Silver Flame's not that useful, but the others are. Sovereign host in particular. Anyway, you can find 'useless' enhancements for every class in the game. Its not possible to have perfect equality amidst variety. By the way, I haven't seen anyone say "oooh, you have faith enhancements, you don't need more." If someone has, I'd agree that's a poor argument.

4) No, not particularly. But if a game is making you this upset, it might be better for you that you do take a break.

[Angelus_dead]

1) No, that has nothing to do with paladin multiclassing. It has to do with the irrelevance of alignment and roleplaying in DDO. A 'batman' who was actually constrained by the paladin ethos would not be a problem.

Untrue. The strongest rogue abilities gained by a "batman" character are evasion and UMD, neither of which conflicts with the paladin code at all.

One could argue that taking advantage of Sneak Attack damage dice might be in violation of paladin principles (and some D&D books do have rules along those lines), but in DDO, batman paladins only have 1d6 Sneak Attack anyhow, and would be happy to give it up if needed.

Its also something of an issue of the lack of favored class rules and associated penalties, though those penalties wouldn't be a big deal in DDO anyway.

DDO could easily enforce those penalties to be a major obstacle, if they wished.

[Vormaerin]

Untrue. The strongest rogue abilities gained by a "batman" character are evasion and UMD, neither of which conflicts with the paladin code at all.

DDO could easily enforce those penalties to be a major obstacle, if they wished.

Nah, I don't think that the batman is a problem abilities wise with respect to the paladin code. I meant that very few players want to play paladins and abide by that code in an actual gaming situation. How many of the DDO quests would be ruled out by an actual paladin code enforcement? That's all I meant.

The only way I could see them enforcing the penalties in a way that matters is if they had a max xp value and that 20% (or 40%) came off of it. If a non favored class combo couldn't reach the real cap, people would care. Otherwise, they'd just run Deleras or PoP or whatever another couple times.

[Angelus_dead]

Nah, I don't think that the batman is a problem abilities wise with respect to the paladin code. I meant that very few players want to play paladins and abide by that code in an actual gaming situation. How many of the DDO quests would be ruled out by an actual paladin code enforcement?

Purge the Heretics, Jungles of Khyber, and Running With Devils, although there are possible workarounds for some of them.

Anyway, issues of difficulty adhering to paladin codes are irrelevant, because sticking to a code would be just as hard for a pure paladin as a splash build. Harder, actually, since the multiclass character has more options for non-violent conflict resolution.

[MysticTheurge]

Purge the Heretics, Jungles of Khyber, and Running With Devils, although there are possible workarounds for some of them.

And there's always the atonement spell. It's kind of tailor made for that "Oops, I was duped into killing off a bunch of 'good guys'" scenario.

[Vormaerin]

Purge the Heretics, Jungles of Khyber, and Running With Devils, although there are possible workarounds for some of them.

Anyway, issues of difficulty adhering to paladin codes are irrelevant, because sticking to a code would be just as hard for a pure paladin as a splash build. Harder, actually, since the multiclass character has more options for non-violent conflict resolution.

I'm not sure what we are disagreeing about, if anything. Paladins would be a lot less common in general if the RP issues were relevant, certainly. The comments I was originally addressing asserted that paladins multiclassing at all was a big problem. I don't think it is. I think its only common because there is no roleplaying constraint on the class, as there is in p&p. Paladins and paladin splashes would be far less common if you actually had to play a paladin. That's a big p&p balance on the class: cool powers, harsh limits.

There are more quests that would be problematic, though. Several of the harbor quests involve working for crooks, some side quests (like the messenger quest in Redwillow) would be also. Kind of a side point, though. It was just meant as an example of how the class was intended to be balanced by RP considerations as much as mechanics ones.

[MysticTheurge]

It was just meant as an example of how the class was intended to be balanced by RP considerations as much as mechanics ones.

I'm not sure I buy that.

The paladin code of ethics seems to be in place largely as flavor, not for any balance reasons. Just like a monk's multiclassing rules and a druids armor limitations.

If these things were intended to be actual balance factors, they'd be incorporated into the mechanics more rigorously, like Arcane Spell Failure (which seems to me to be an example of an RP-consideration-turned-balance-consideration).

Edit -- Notably, there aren't significant difference in the power of the three Variant Paladins offered in the SRD despite the fact that their Codes of Conduct vary wildly from variant to variant.

[Uska]

...since my first reply was deleted by the moderator. And I'll be all like well mannered and stuff too.

As I pointed out, in the deleted post, I've been waiting since the enhancements were changed, back about 15 months ago. Is that not sufficiently long enough? For whom is that not long enough? Seems just a tad on the absurdly long side, to me. Just a tad.

My main concern is this. I don't want to see several enhancements created that few, if any, paladins will take, because when we complain about the lack of enhancements, the list of new enhancements will be proudly pointed at, and we paladins will be told we are being greedy, that this is enough. It will be completely ignored that several of the enhancements are excessively expensive for the power they add. It will be completely ignored that several of the enhancements are in effect ghosts and do not even exist, except in a theoretical sense, to theoriticians, and other people that like to argue just for the fun of it.

To illustrate the point, ask yourself this question. If a tree falls in the forest and no one is there to hear it, does it make a sound? No, wait, wrong question.

If few to none take an enhancement, does it actually exist? How few? 1 in 25? 1 in 50? 1 in 100?

I mean we can create a Bulwark of Good V and put its cost at 50 action points, and proudly point to it and say, there's another enhancement. But it would only exist in theory, not in practice.

In fairness to the Game Developers I want to say that the problem is not caused by them, but by the person who decided to allow paladins to be multi-classed. This was a fundamental error in game design and judgment. And its probably an unrecoverable error. And it was made long before this problem landed in Turbine's lap.

God knows, the license holder probably will not permit it, but several problems could be solved if Turbine could elect that the paladin class could not be multi-classed.

Because it shouldn't be. Its special. Its an exception. And it always has been. Well, until someone said it could be multiclassed.

The paladin has always been able to be multiclassed in 3.0-3.5 just not freely you could take no more levels in paladin after switching to something else so either you took you other lvls first or your paladin lvls depending on how you wanted to go but you couldnt switch back and forth without either a feat or prc

[BLITHELY]

Yeah, I agree with this statement (except for the part about upping difficulty. There hasn't been any increase in the DCs for Disarm, Search, or Spot. Its just more damage and harder saves if you end up in the trap). I think that upping the damage from traps was a very good idea, not because it makes rogues more valuable, but because it makes traps more in line with the dangers of the rest of an elite quest. There are still plenty of ways around or through traps without a rogue, its just more appropriately painful. Since we are talking elite, these are quests that people have run several times before. So being 'ambushed' by a trap isn't a likely event.

The new DCs are pretty extreme, though. As far as I know, the 60s and higher numbers being thrown around were speculations about how things would scale up, not actual figures. There are some documented low 50s, IIRC. Since you can get to the +70s range as a rogue..if that's all you want to do... I don't think 40s and 50s are that gimping for high level elite.

The low level elite DCs in the 30s are pretty sick, but none of those quests require you to go into the trap anyway. Nor is the damage fatal unless you get hit multiple times (admittedly entirely possible).

70s really i would really like to c that math. There has been 2 threads that dealt exclusivley with this issue and the highest super gimped rogue could get was in the 60s. Completley useless for anythig else. I will grant u with the mod7 u will be able to hit 70 once again i say completly useless for anything else. Sewer Rescue on elite has a DC of 30 on elite that is a lvl 1 quest. Also if u know another way to get through STK on elite without testing your saves in the fire trap let me know. And lets not forget the ever enjoyable non disable traps and DDO's continuing lag issues. Traps more painful fine. Higher DCs fine. Unreasonable and inappropriate DCs r wrong.

[Vormaerin]

I'm not sure I buy that.

The paladin code of ethics seems to be in place largely as flavor, not for any balance reasons. Just like a monk's multiclassing rules and a druids armor limitations.

That was pretty much the original reasoning in 1e: super stringent requirements in terms of characteristics needed and RP limitations. The latter have been progressively watered down as "unfun" from edition to edition. They are nearly gone in 3.5 and, as far as I know, completely gone in 4e. They are incorporated into the rules with paladins able to actually lose their abilities temporarily or permanently. The three classes you mention (paladin, monk, druid) are the only ones for whom that is a risk. I am sure that is intended to be a balance issue. (Clerics in some campaign settings can lose their power, but the PHB rules don't support that nor does the Ebberon CS).

My experience at conventions (in the distant past) and in online gaming (NWN/NWN2 PWs) is that in RP intensive worlds, Paladins are massively less common than in "powergamer" environments, where mechanics are paramount.

Again, though, this is a side issue. I simply disagree that paladins multiclassing is inherently an imbalance in the game or a 'mistake'.

[Vormaerin]

70s really i would really like to c that math. Unreasonable and inappropriate DCs r wrong.

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=134718 That's the discussion of current high water marks in reflex save and the utility of the build. Not useless, but probably not what most folks want to play. But then you don't need to reach that 70+ figure.

Whether they are unreasonable and inappropriate is rather what needs to be decided. Some Dev feedback on the intent would be helpful. The real question is whether the DCs are wrong or the quest levels are wrong..

Oh, and as for the STK fire trap... No, I can't make it through unscathed. But there are players on the forums who insist it is something that can and should be done. Shade, for one. Bug them about it. Its certainly on my list of the traps where these changes matter, unlike most of the ones people are freaking about because you can time them or any kind of splash rogue can turn them off...