Weekly Developer Activities - 2/18/08

[binnsr]

Let's see:

1) Being a halfling means you do 1 less damage per hit than you would have (-2 str). Finesse characters typically don't worry as much about the str bonuses - and an 18 is just fine for carrying stuff
2) If you have a decent dex, intelligence (for searching and disabling), and charisma - your strength is probably not that good. Even less damage per hit. see above
3) Your spot and search may not be good enough for elite content unless you have a race restricted, skill-dedicated item. If you are going to metagame the trap locations, then guess what? You can metagame getting through them, too. there's no need for race restricted items. i've picked up several +15 non-RR items since mod6 went live .. as for spot, my current rogue with BW goggles of spot +10 and 18 ranks in Spot has a 36 (meeting the current HWM for spot)
4) You don't have Human Versatility, and you don't list Skill Action Boost in your AP expenditures. There are probably several traps that will be difficult to find, and some that you'll have a chance to blow up.You don't need skiill boosts to meet (or exceed) the requirements for the traps in this game.

http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?k...4qxEQ&hl=en_GB
This build is right where he needs to be for the high water marks (with the exception of the Cabal trap).. it exceeds the hwm for both spot and search and is within 2 of the hwm for disable.

I don't agree with how high the DCs are currently, but I also don't think that the sky just fell either..

[dragnmoon]

I just checked.. Before Buffs from others (Almost always buffed)
At level 16

Spot 42(44 Hero)
Search 42(44 Hero)
Disable 49 (51 Hero)

Obviously at lower levels those skills where lower and I did have to do some changes to get my spot high enough..(never with feats)

But Items a few enhancements was all I ever needed. You don't need to build with everything to getting traps unless you want the one cabal trap...Buffs may be need for some builds (Rogues with a High Str maybe).

All my feats are combat related and I have all the sneak attack enhancements... so they were not gimped to build this guy..

*Other races and MC rogues may experience other side effects

[Raithe]

as for spot, my current rogue with BW goggles of spot +10 and 18 ranks in Spot has a 36 (meeting the current HWM for spot)

No wonder I keep running into rogues who can't spot traps... there is some serious misinformation running around.

Most of Gianthold (Feast or Famine, Cry for Help, Foundation of Discord, Maze of Madness) have spot and search requirements in the 40s on elite. Foundation of Discord, like Cabal, also has a trap with a really high disable requirement (or maybe its broken). I know that Fleshmaker's Lab exceeds a 36 search on elite because my bard/rogue could only get to 36 before Mod 6. I believe even the Twilight Forge has a 40+ DC trap on elite.

I haven't tested Temple of Vol, but I'm sure it's up there... maybe I'll go test it now (it's quite easy to get to).

[dragnmoon]

No wonder I keep running into rogues who can't spot traps... there is some serious misinformation running around.

Most of gianthold (Cry for Help, Foundation of Discord, Maze of Madness) have spot and search requirements in the 40s on elite. Foundation of Discord, like Cabal, also has a trap with a really high disable requirement (or maybe its broken). I know that Fleshmaker's Lab exceeds a 36 search on elite because my bard/rogue could only get to 36 before Mod 6.

I haven't tested Temple of Vol, but I'm sure it's up there... maybe I'll go test it now (it's quite easy to get to).

Your the misinformed one.. I know for a fact I did not have a spot of above 38 for most of my level 14 experience.. and I never missed spot or search on those quests on elite.. Except for that cabal trap..

Edit: Weeeeeeeeee he said/ she said arguments are fun... I know my experience.. Just because you had a 40+ spot on elite at level 14 in those quests does not mean you needed it.

[binnsr]

No wonder I keep running into rogues who can't spot traps... there is some serious misinformation running around.

Most of Ggianthold (Cry for Help, Foundation of Discord, Maze of Madness) have spot and search requirements in the 40s on elite. Foundation of Discord, like Cabal, also has a trap with a really high disable requirement (or maybe its broken). I know that Fleshmaker's Lab exceeds a 36 search on elite because my bard/rogue could only get to 36 before Mod 6. I believe even the Twilight Forge has a 40+ DC trap on elite.

I haven't tested Temple of Vol, but I'm sure it's up there... maybe I'll go test it now (it's quite easy to get to).

If you've got different information than is found in cforce's thread, please update that thread.. I have yet to *not* spot the trap and the only time I've failed a search was when I got cocky and didn't equip my search goggles (I almost never use my Int ring or wisdom hat because they're just not needed).

High Water Marks
How high do DC's go? This frequently changes, and all the numbers here should be taken as "what the community currently thinks they are", and not absolute gospel. While I keep track of new observations that folks post on the forums (as well as my own experiences), there's no guarantee that some of these haven't been changed, nor that people haven't occasionally made mistakes while gathering data. But, to my knowledge, it represents the best data the community has on the different values.

*Cabal Trap*
Editorial: This trap guards a single chest, and has DCs on Elite that are silly-high enough that your party won't expect you to be able to disarm it -- all they lose is a chest, and the DCs are simply too high for all but the most trap-optimized builds to achieve.
Disable Device: 75-76 DC.
Search: <= 56 DC Has been found after recent update with as low as a 56 Search, but may be yet lower.

*Everything Else*
Disable Device: at least +56 modifier for 0% chance of blowing traps. Aurum Lair trap with DC at least 61.
Open Locks: +39-48 modifier. Locked door in Fleshmaker's Lab, has been failed on a total 58, and succeeded on a total 68.
Search: <44? (traps)/ 45-48 (secret doors) VoN 4 secret door has been reported as 45-48 DC on Elite. Second highest trap (after Cabal) in Gianthold has not been discussed veyr much, but SableShadow has been steadily pushing the envelope and hasn't run into trouble with a Search of 44.
Spot: 35-36 Maze of Madness, Cry for Help, Feast or Famine on Elite requires a Spot of 35 or 36 to spot traps.

* - I use 'modifier' rather than 'skill' on Open and Disable because the Tools contribution will not be reflected on your character sheet when you look at your skill tab, but will only be added into the modifier at the time of the die roll. Note that also due to the die rolls, I've cited modifiers below the DC's -- in the case of open locks, you can reroll until you get a 20. In the case of disable device, you can reroll until you get (DC - 5) or lower, at which point the trap blows, so a modifier 5 under the DC will always get you the trap eventually. Slightly off-topic, but important to know: you will use whichever tools are "first" - ie, top left corner, first inventory tab is your 'first inventory slot'.

( Last edited by cforce : 01-23-2008 at 08:57 AM.)

[dragnmoon]

I've failed a search was when I got cocky and didn't equip my search goggles

Eeek.. i have done that.. That sucks... what is even worse is when you forget to put on your disable device item right after saying.. "No worries I never fail.......BOOM!*... oh... I forgot to put on my item *red face*"

[Raithe]

If you've got different information than is found in cforce's thread, please update that thread.. I have yet to *not* spot the trap and the only time I've failed a search was when I got cocky and didn't equip my search goggles (I almost never use my Int ring or wisdom hat because they're just not needed).

( Last edited by cforce : 01-23-2008 at 08:57 AM.)

I keep forgetting that their spot DCs are lower than their search (which makes absolutely no sense), so ya, you may be right about spot.

Search is the important one, and cforce's information seems accurate to me. I would even drop his 44 estimate 1 or 2 points.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

This might not be the best place, but since such a large number of people are debating the multi-classed rogue/trap DC thing, I will add my 2cp.

My main toon is a multi-classed rogue who prior to MOD6 had done every quest on elite except the abbot and pre-raid (still need that last sigil piece )
He's also done the new 5 vale quest on normal and one on hard.

So.....lot of past experiance with being amulti-classed rogue.

I also have an up and coming lvl7 pure rogue.

For the las two years, everyone on these forums have complained that splash rogues can do traps just as good as pure rogues, and made their opinion about how wrong that is known to the devs.
Obvioulsy to me the increase in trap DCs was an attempt to satisfy some of those complaints, and now that they see some problems with it, the new enhancements are an attempt to set things right.

I personally do not have a problem with designing dungeons in a way to give a pure rogue an advantage..

But what bothers me is that by retrofitting past dungeons, the devs have created a situation where you have to have a pure, dex based, specially maxed out super high reflex save pure rogue with all the trimmings trap monkey................just to complete the quest. (think STK)
This is not right.

Yeah, you can say "you dont have to do elite".....but you do....or you will not get the favor.

And what if your rogue blows up the box?.............well game over......quest cannot be completed.
Thats not right.

So far, I have yet to see a quest that most pure rogues can do that my multi-classed rogue cannot.......even now.
And I would really really hate it if yet another change to the game ruins my favorite character (again).

Human versitility nerfed......I've learned to do without.
fire walls scrolls and DD scrolls gone.....I've learned to do without.
Cloudkill scrolls gone, and cloudkill nerfed..........all my casters have learned to do without. ( the kill part of cloudkill now refers to your caster)
Cap raised from 10........new stuff available that makes pure classes more desirable.....I've learned to do without.

Well......IMO this change does not gimp multi-classed rogues as much as it gimps all rogues into being built a certain way to handle the new traps.

right now IMO there is only one feasable rogue.....the one with the maxed reflex save......maxed even more than is currently possible IMO.

In PnP a rogue's strength is his ability to do a large number of things well........in DDO he seems to have only one purpose.
Not right.

Dev's plz give other uses for skills in the dungeons.
And plz make them and traps with huge DCs optionals......(and plz make the optional rewards very very good)

[dragnmoon]

I keep forgetting that their spot DCs are lower than their search (which makes absolutely no sense), so ya, you may be right about spot.

Search is the important one, and cforce's information seems accurate to me. I would even drop his 44 estimate 1 or 2 points.

yay... you Finally see the light ..

You could be right on the search... I know now I have no problem with search now... But I do remember a few rare occasions I need a GH... Rare...

Oh and.. there are a few quests *Raids not included* that I did on elite before the HV nerf... so that may effect my experience of lower levels..

I think the biggest problem right now is not the High level characters since they are at the point that it takes minimal work to get the ability to search/spot/disable... but that the low levels can't meet the requirements on the level appropriate quests on elite... with out serious Gimpege to other abilities..

Much of my experience at those levels where different because the requirements where different.

[Taerdra]

What is really crazy is that a halfling with only 4 levels of Rogue would get 2d6 +6(Rogue Sneak Damage II) + 8(Halfling) +8(Weapon) or +29 average damage per swing from 4 levels of Rogue....It takes a lot of action points to do it though.

Aye, to me, this is the interesting thing about the new enhancements... Conan-type Halfling Barb/Rogue anyone?

[dragnmoon]

Aye, to me, this is the interesting thing about the new enhancements... Conan-type Halfling Barb/Rogue anyone?

Conan as a Halfling?... Now that is Funny!!!

Seriously though.. Halfings in Eberron being a barbarian makes sense because of their culture.

[EinarMal]

Aye, to me, this is the interesting thing about the new enhancements... Conan-type Halfling Barb/Rogue anyone?

I am thinking of finally being able to build a really cool Wiz/Rogue with non-stop blinded mob sneak attacks...

At the current cap looking like Wiz12/Rogue 4 with ITWF and IC Piercing and 29 DC glitterdust for sneak attacks all day long! I could never figure out a way to get enough sneak damage with only 4 Rogue levels so I could end up with 15 Wizard levels and be a pretty solid caster. Problem solved!

[Talon_Moonshadow]

You are still ignoring the fact that the only difference between the two is the small number of traps where you have to be in the trap to make the disarm check. And for that you'll have your spell buffs: resist, protection, stoneskin, false life, etc. Seriously, how many traps in the game are you suddenly unable to do?

This may npt be true.
My MOD6 exp has been that the increased damage of the traps makes buffs like these almost meaningless.....although, impossible without them......unless your toon rolls lots of 20s in a row......unlike mine that rolls lots of 1s in a row.

[Dimicron]

As probably 1 out of 5 people playing DDO with the keyboard, I'd like to say thanks for the G15 support!

(now get back to work on those Druids! )

[Taerdra]

Conan as a Halfling?... Now that is Funny!!!

Seriously though.. Halfings in Eberron being a barbarian makes sense because of their culture.

A Halfling Barb 12/Rogue 4 swinging a Green Steel Greatsword with 42+ STR, 36+CON, and +22+2d6 SA damage is pretty sweet to imagine...

I am thinking of finally being able to build a really cool Wiz/Rogue with non-stop blinded mob sneak attacks...

At the current cap looking like Wiz12/Rogue 4 with ITWF and IC Piercing and 29 DC glitterdust for sneak attacks all day long! I could never figure out a way to get enough sneak damage with only 4 Rogue levels so I could end up with 15 Wizard levels and be a pretty solid caster. Problem solved!

That's a cool idea as well. I always forget about Glitterdust/SA synergy.

[Vormaerin]

This may npt be true.
My MOD6 exp has been that the increased damage of the traps makes buffs like these almost meaningless.....although, impossible without them......unless your toon rolls lots of 20s in a row......unlike mine that rolls lots of 1s in a row.

Yes, but Mod 6 is in the "we made elite even more elite than before" land. No one is saying that its effortless to be able to do "Elite" traps now. But it is feasible as a pure rogue or combining rogue with a good synergy class (barbarian, ranger, paladin). Its harder to do with a class whose features do not directly aid trap saves. In that case, you have to look at other forms of help. Whether those are enough with your build will depend on many factors. It may be that your MCrogue will not be able to do the 'stand in the trap' disarms if they aren't for you. The number of traps where you have to *stand in* the trap is very small. There are more traps you have to pass through to reach the box, but most of those won't hit you if you move fast and/or time it right.

Rogues are going to have to put effort into trapsmithing IF they want to do them on elite. But its not impossible to do nor is it a gimping level of commitment. Well, except in the eyes of those who think rogues are gimped innately.

[Tallyn]

Being Flippant. Funny you should mention that. I was thinking impertinent. Absurd. Beyond belief.

But really? How about YOU but really this... YOU take a look at the indisputable fact that it takes two entire levels to earn 8 action points. Aint none of your New Math gonna change that F A C T.

I only play 3 hours a night 6 nights a weak. And what you just said above sounds like gibberish to me. But, heh, what do I know? I've only been playing this game for two years.

But don't mind little ol' impractical me. You have a nice day with your 158th, 159th, and 160th Reaver raid run, now, you hear? It sounds like SO much fun!

Well there you have it, ladies and gentlemen. Our solution provided by an expert on paladins. We paladins need to run the Reaver raid 40 times, as a prequalification, and then we can become worthy of our new enhancement.

Hmm, here is an idea, then DONT spend the points on it.

This is probably just one thing in a list of things to come for Paladins. A little patience would probably go a long way.

While a lot of people consider AC a throw away, it isn't. With correct templating and good use of feats and enhancements you can be unhittable except for a 20 on about 99% of monsters out there. Even on elite. Thus they have to carefully balance the whole AC bonus from Paladin's since it stacks with everything (Except for another Paladins aura).

Like I said, I certainly do not see this as the only thing they will be adding for Paladins, give it some time.

[dragnmoon]

Rogues are going to have to put effort into trapsmithing IF they want to do them on elite. But its not impossible to do nor is it a gimping level of commitment. Well, except in the eyes of those who think rogues are gimped innately.

For a Dex based Rogue... it really does not require that much effort... there is the ability in the game to do it with a Dex based rogue without spending any feats...

Now rogues who are not Dex based... they will have a harder time of it...

[Tallyn]

I played a Drow Paladin and a Human Paladin as well, both up to level 14. I had a Rogue 12/Paladin 2 who heavily used Human Versatility for UMD and other purposes. I haven't been too enamored of some of the changes they have done, hence they are deleted and I've played other characters up to the level cap. And I've been playing since day 1 of headstart. If I get too frustrated with the game, I usually just take a break. But I always come back, because in my opinion, it's currently the best MMO out there.

Hehe, and though I appreciate your sarcasm, I sincerely doubt any jury would consider Turbine posting that enhancement as the first for Paladin's as legal provocation for murder/homicide.

[I_Bob]

This thread started out commenting on things that needed fixing and I'd like to add one. It's small but a pain. Most of the time, in any tavern, when one clicks on "buy", you can't buy. You have to click on "sell" then back on "buy." Been that way from forever. I wouldn't think it would be that hard to correct. Just a small pet peeve. Along with a pouch for spell components which which would then free up a lot of needed inventory slots. Having fun otherwise.